FlyDubai accident Rostov-On-Don

Locker10a

Tenger wrote: »

A few years back (2005-2008) I was above 870 hours each year, but I felt that I had a good lifestyle and most duties were longer sectors (all early shifts)
In the name of "efficiency" the company changed the shift planning system....since then I am still hitting 880-895 every year but my quality of life has gone down a lot. Less time between flights as the planning system tries to schedule duties with the legal minimum time between duties. So instead of 5 days of early shifts, all finishing at 2-3pm, I get a rolling pattern of lates to mids to early over the 5-6 days, or finishing late before days of then back in for early shifts.
Same overall limits, but different implementation have very different outcome for my health and moral. 900 Block hours in my opinion is not a problem, the minimum rest between flying and consecutive WOCL duty are an big problem.

Agreed, it's the level of(or lack of) "roster stability" that is the problem most of the time and not necessilary the total hours! My hours have never gone about 750ish but during summer there's barely any point in having a roster as it gets changed so often ( delays running into minimum rest)
Being constantly delayed and duty changes etc earlies/lates/earlies is exhausting and unhealthy. Humans need a certain level of routine, without it we suffer

leavingirl

That's the last time I'll fly with any ME airline.

JCX BXC

leavingirl wrote: »

That's the last time I'll fly with any ME airline.

What are the alternatives?

leavingirl

Carnacalla wrote: »

What are the alternatives?

We regularly fly between Asia and Europe. I used to take etihad and Emirates. We can try KLM or other European airlines.
I know someone will come back saying European airlines are as bad but I just do not trust Emirates especially.
RT spoke to some pilots and the stories are shocking.

Or maybe it's just because I associate them with Arsenal. Always promise a lot but you know you'll be disappointed in the end

Gaoth Laidir

leavingirl wrote: »

We regularly fly between Asia and Europe. I used to take etihad and Emirates. We can try KLM or other European airlines.
I know someone will come back saying European airlines are as bad but I just do not trust Emirates especially.
RT spoke to some pilots and the stories are shocking.

Or maybe it's just because I associate them with Arsenal. Always promise a lot but you know you'll be disappointed in the end

So you know what happened in this accident in order to have made such an informed decision? Please do share the details with us and the authorities so that they can issue a report and close the book on it. :rolleyes:

I assume you will not fly Air France either...

leavingirl

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So you know what happened in this accident in order to have made such an informed decision? Please do share the details with us and the authorities so that they can issue a report and close the book on it. :rolleyes:

I assume you will not fly Air France either...

That's a mealy mouth reply if I ever saw one.

leavingirl

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

So you know what happened in this accident in order to have made such an informed decision? Please do share the details with us and the authorities so that they can issue a report and close the book on it. :rolleyes:

I assume you will not fly Air France either...

Air France yeah. Surprised you didnt bring up Tenerife when I mentioned KLM.

Tenger

Any more idiotic posting by either of you two will see you getting a short holiday from Boards A&A. The mods are never very lenient in aviation accident threads due to the higher than normal level of trolling and non-aviation input.This is you warning

leavingirl

The overwhelming guilt has gotten to them

'Now exhausted Emirates airline pilots tell RT of overwork'

https://www.rt.com/news/337128-emirates-pilots-fatigue-scandal/

#Flydubaigate

martinsvi

I don't get it. When pilots here complain about pilot fatigue, rosters and airline attitudes we shower them with "thanks".. when an average consumer comes here, reads the complaints left by professional pilots and, quite logically develops trust issues, we hand out "yellow cards" to them? am I missing something, was something else deleted? Should we not encourage people like leavingirl to vote with his/her wallet, perhaps even have their concerns known to respective airlines via social media and so on? I mean how else do you expect the industry to improve? We already established that regulators can be corrupted and we can't really elect them. What else is there if not for public concern and distrust? Or do airline pilots prefer to be left alone in their pain and misery as if they're some sort of 90ties grunge rock band where were allowed to watch and shake our heads in the rhythm but by no means we should intervene?

Obviously this might have nothing to do with the thread in question and I appreciate the mods trying to keep it clean but shouldn't then it work both ways?

MoeJay

You may well find that regulators will say that they apply the highest standards to all the airlines under their control and the airlines will say they are in compliance with all of these standards and may even have a document from the regulator to prove it.

So it must be something to do with terms and conditions of employment which of course the regulators will not get involved in....sure isn't 900 hours a year only 18 hours a week?

The point being that the question to the regulator has probably been asked already and the answer hasn't changed for a long time...

Brians Collection

"So it must be something to do with terms and conditions of employment which of course the regulators will not get involved in....sure isn't 900 hours a year only 18 hours a week ? "

The 900 hours are flight hours based on a 52 weeks period but when leave is subtracted it would not be 18 flying hours per week it would be a greater figure also when total duty is taken into account these numbers will greatly increase.

smurfjed

sure isn't 900 hours a year only 18 hours a week ? "

It also depends on how these hours are counted, in our case ALL block time is accountable, so lets look at a long 15 hour flight, the crew can do 3 of these a month and reach 90 hours. Some of the neighbouring airlines only account for the hours in the actual pilot seat, so as this flight is flown by 2 sets of crew, each crew would only get 15 hours accountable time for the 30 hour roundtrip, they can therefore do 6 roundtrips a month rather than 3. Their unit hour cost is a lot less than for my employer and is totally legal.

The crews are walking zombies, so as Martinsvi has stated, nothing will change until joe public starts voting with their wallets. Who knows, maybe its time for SkyTrax to start listing airlines by their rostering practices.

The King of Dalriada

Brians Collection wrote: »

"So it must be something to do with terms and conditions of employment which of course the regulators will not get involved in....sure isn't 900 hours a year only 18 hours a week ? "

The 900 hours are flight hours based on a 52 weeks period but when leave is subtracted it would not be 18 flying hours per week it would be a greater figure also when total duty is taken into account these numbers will greatly increase.

MoeJay was being sarcastic there! Why isn't there a sarcasm emoji!!

fits

Joe public has absolutely no idea this is going on and the only guidance here appears to be 'buy a more expensive fare'. Im sorry but many of these airlines are highly profitable and more expensive fares will just end up in pocket of shareholders. Its up to the staff to ensure their working conditions are good.

MoeJay

The King of Dalriada wrote: »

MoeJay was being sarcastic there! Why isn't there a sarcasm emoji!!

Maybe I was a bit too subtle! Why focus on that point rather than the fact that the regulators have no interest in the terms and conditions of the licence holders? I'm not sure that any accident report has ever made reference to that fact as a direct or indirect factor on a crew's performance. Colgan maybe? (I'd have to research that)

The challenge is raised to ensure that the terms and conditions are good and that it is down to the staff to do this. How do you propose this is achieved?

billy few mates

Why do people spend so much time and money accumulating as many hours flying as they can to obtain their dream job as an airline pilot and then spend their entire career moaning about the number of hours they fly...?
I'm kidding, I'm kidding...

Gaoth Laidir

leavingirl wrote: »

That's a mealy mouth reply if I ever saw one.

leavingirl wrote: »

Air France yeah. Surprised you didnt bring up Tenerife when I mentioned KLM.

Tenger wrote: »

Any more idiotic posting by either of you two will see you getting a short holiday from Boards A&A. The mods are never very lenient in aviation accident threads due to the higher than normal level of trolling and non-aviation input.This is you warning

Eh? Was I trolling? Leavingirl made a wide-ranging general statement against all midlle-eastern airlines, as if these are the only ones who have accidents. Do you agree with this? Can we say that because FlyDubai had one accident then that leaves Emirates, Etihad, etc. less safe too? I don't agree with this. I believe (but am not a pro pilot) that both of these are the dream jobs for many pilots, so I don't understand how her statement holds water. Mine is a valid argument to make against it.

leavingirl

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Eh? Was I trolling? Leavingirl made a wide-ranging general statement against all midlle-eastern airlines, as if these are the only ones who have accidents. Do you agree with this? Can we say that because FlyDubai had one accident then that leaves Emirates, Etihad, etc. less safe too? I don't agree with this. I believe (but am not a pro pilot) that both of these are the dream jobs for many pilots, so I don't understand how her statement holds water. Mine is a valid argument to make against it.

These pilots agree that it's a prestigious job.

https://www.rt.com/new...ots-fatigue-scandal/

I'm not making any arguments. It is the pilots that are talking about the fatigue and resultant safety issues. Likewe seen last week.

Gaoth Laidir

leavingirl wrote: »

These pilots agree that it's a prestigious job.

https://www.rt.com/new...ots-fatigue-scandal/

I'm not making any arguments. It is the pilots that are talking about the fatigue and resultant safety issues. Likewe seen last week.

That link doesn't work

EDIT: I read your previous link. Yes, claims by anonymous "pilots" to a clickbait company such as RT. Reads very shockingly until you come to the company's reply. That would seem to indicate that they are being proactive in trying to prevent fatigue. Another side to the same story, but one that you didn't mention. Do we even know if RT conducted such a survey? It's very handy to quote all respondents were anonymous, that way it can't be verified.

And then there's the current pilot's statement of fact that fatigue was a factor in this crash. So his/her word - in these early stages of the investigation - can be quoted as proof? Again, please refer to official sources, not ones like RT, for your information. That's what I do anyway.

leavingirl

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

That link doesn't work

https://www.rt.com/news/337270-emirates-pilot-brutal-roster/

I have no agenda.

I just decided after reading all about this that we wont be using airlines from this part of the world again. It's just my opinion. Like all the other opinions here.

Gaoth Laidir

leavingirl wrote: »

https://www.rt.com/news/337270-emirates-pilot-brutal-roster/

I have no agenda.

I just decided after reading all about this that we wont be using airlines from this part of the world again. It's just my opinion. Like all the other opinions here.

I never claimed you have an agenda. I was just responding to your opinion.

martinsvi

reputation matters in this business and if we can make general public aware of poor terms and conditions that crew work under - fatigue, low pay or even "pay 2 fly" schemes, we might as well change the way airlines treat their employees..

Nowadays people choose "organic", "bio", "fair trade" and "grown locally" as if that's some sort of brand that can be respected, even if it's more pricey. It's cool to care. Not everyone can afford to be "cool", but those who can do indeed make an impact. I'm pretty sure you could also start a motion where it is "cool" to use an airline that treats their employees respectfully. Once the ball gets rolling there's not much airlines will be able to do except to join the "Always getting better" band wagon

so whether all ME carriers are unsafe or not - maybe "safe" or "unsafe" is not the right term, but sorry lads, from the rosters we have seen around the web and knowing some of the crew personally one can generally conclude that a sweatshop worker in Bangladesh gets more rest than you guys. I'm not convinced "Safety First" translates very well to Arabic

Tenger

martinsvi wrote: »

I don't get it. When pilots here complain about pilot fatigue, rosters and airline attitudes we shower them with "thanks".. when an average consumer comes here, reads the complaints left by professional pilots and, quite logically develops trust issues, we hand out "yellow cards" to them? am I missing something, was something else deleted? .....

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Eh? Was I trolling? Leavingirl made a wide-ranging general statement against all midlle-eastern airlines, as if these are the only ones who have accidents. ............

My intention was obviously unclear, for that I must apologise.
By all means everyone is allow to debate and discuss the topic on-hand. (from a mod point of view this incident has gone off topic but its a very interesting and important tangent so I'm happy to allow it)
The issue was the the post looked to be getting heated, I was on a night shift, I was going to be unable to get online for a while (sleep) so made the call to issue a warning. These post-incident threads can get very heated.
leavingirl is absolutely correct to question their future choice's, at the same time we can't state that any airline is really any "safer" than another. That leads us towards the area of airline bashing, which we have very little patience for here.
made a snap decision to nip something in the bud, in the past the mods have woken up to a basket case in post-incident thread(looking at you MH370 and GerrmanWings)

leavingirl wrote: »

I have no agenda.

I just decided after reading all about this that we wont be using airlines from this part of the world again. It's just my opinion. Like all the other opinions here.

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I never claimed you have an agenda. I was just responding to your opinion.

And here we have a mature resolution from the posters, thanks for being mature in your disagreement. We have had others in the past who have not been.

ED E

billy few mates wrote: »

Why do people spend so much time and money accumulating as many hours flying as they can to obtain their dream job as an airline pilot and then spend their entire career moaning about the number of hours they fly...?
I'm kidding, I'm kidding...

A career doesnt last 5yrs then its over. From the time an 18yo dreams of being a pilot to the time they take a 737 up a lot of things can change. Similarly over the course of the rest of their career.

Regulation in many aspects of life can really suck, it only changes when theirs popular pressure to do so. Tom Wheeler of the FCC in the US is a prime example of this.

Edit: Now that I quote this the white text is visible. D'oh.
EDIT: Changed 'white' text to 'blue' using l33t mod skills

billy few mates

ED E wrote: »

A career doesnt last 5yrs then its over. From the time an 18yo dreams of being a pilot to the time they take a 737 up a lot of things can change. Similarly over the course of the rest of their career.

Regulation in many aspects of life can really suck, it only changes when theirs popular pressure to do so. Tom Wheeler of the FCC in the US is a prime example of this.

Edit: Now that I quite this the white text is visible. D'oh.
EDIT: Changed 'white' text to 'blue' using l33t mod skills

I was wondering if anyone was going to bite...

Bsal

Some info apparently leaked about the FDR/CVR

https://www.rt.com/news/337400-pilots-conflict-boeing-rostov/

Dardania

Bsal wrote: »

Some info apparently leaked about the FDR/CVR

https://www.rt.com/news/337400-pilots-conflict-boeing-rostov/

Some tech accuracy would be appreciated there - I thought boeings had directly coupled (between both pilots) control yokes yet the article talks about a cancellation effect like with Airbus?

Abstracting though, a stall situation feels like the cause...

sparrowcar

Bsal wrote: »

Some info apparently leaked about the FDR/CVR

https://www.rt.com/news/337400-pilots-conflict-boeing-rostov/

No matter how many times I read articles like this I can't help but shiver when I read that the pilots were screaming in the last few secs. Poor fcukers went to work that day not intending to die or make a life ending error in their duties.

Gaoth Laidir

I would not be going to a source like rt.com for information on this. If it's not on Avherald then it didn't happen imo.

bkehoe

Dardania wrote: »

Some tech accuracy would be appreciated there - I thought boeings had directly coupled (between both pilots) control yokes yet the article talks about a cancellation effect like with Airbus?

If there is there is a control restriction on the 737 then the control column that isn't subject to the jam can 'break out' - this would be my interpretation as to what is being referred to. This protection applies in pitch as well as roll (in roll, the captains side does ailerons only, and the FO side spoilers only). The force necessary to do this in pitch would be very significant though; much more than the control force required to fly the aircraft in manual reversion (no hydraulic assistance).

Gaoth Laidir

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I would not be going to a source like rt.com for information on this. If it's not on Avherald then it didn't happen imo.

And as sure as night follows day, this is the case:

From AVherald today:

On Mar
29th 2016 the MAK condemned all "leaked" information reported by Russian media as false and stated, that no information whatsoever has been leaked from the investigation. About one hour of CVR has been transcribed so far including the crew communication in the final stages of the flight. Mechanical reconstruction as well as preliminary analysis of the flight data recorder so far do not suggest any malfunction of the engines of the aircraft and no failures of aircraft systems or components, the aircraft had all necessary documentation and certificates of airworthiness, passed all required maintenance and was airworthy at the time of departure. The MAK is now undertaking mathematical modelling of the aircraft's flight trajectory in combination with the sounds available on the CVR. The identification of wreckage pieces and mechanical reconstruction of the aircraft continues.

leavingirl

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I would not be going to a source like rt.com for information on this. If it's not on Avherald then it didn't happen imo.

So you think the pilots that are speaking out are lying? Fake?

JCX BXC

leavingirl wrote: »

So you think the pilots that are speaking out are lying? Fake?

Considering Gaoth actually posted a sanitised version, no. The poster simply doesn't trust RT as a reliable source, which many wouldn't considering their history of agenda and inaccuracy.

Gaoth Laidir

leavingirl wrote: »

So you think the pilots that are speaking out are lying? Fake?

I am saying that it is a possibility. We have seen that their claims of "leaked" flight data information were bogus. They are a clickbait site that live off people posting links to their sensationalist stories, just as you did. Is there any truth to the pilot story? I don't know, but as with other tabloid garbage sites I would put zero faith in it until it is verified by a credible source.

Do you believe their claim that a pilot leaked information stating as fact that fatigue was the cause? You would believe that this early on in the investigation? Stick to Avherald and the official press releases from the investigation bodies.

martinsvi

I remember a couple of years ago RT were caught interviewing people claiming that they are professors from respectable universities only to be later found out - they were actors and as per usual - were pushing their agenda, if I remember correctly - it was to do with Ukraine and how parts of it should have always been with Russia in the first place.. I'm also pretty sure RT has some sort of a record for reporters quitting their job on live TV simply because they have had enough with the BS

anyway, I have no trouble believing there are flyDubai pilots who feel overworked, every second airline around the globe probably has them, it's terrible, I know. However there's no evidence that this event is actually caused by pilot fatigue. It is very disrespectful towards the crew, their families and loved ones to blame the crew until strict evidence is presented, and competent people have had their say. Let's have some respect, shall we?