Bike nearly impounded for not having insurance cert

BaronVon

A vehicle can be seized under S41 of the Road Traffic Act if the tax is out by more than 3 months, or if it's not insured.

(b) the vehicle is or a member of the Garda Síochána reasonably believes it to be registered in the State and the member is of opinion that the vehicle is being so used in contravention of section 56 (1) of the Principal Act, or

(c) a member of the Garda Síochána is of opinion that any excise duty payable under section 1 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act, 1952 , in respect of the vehicle, being a vehicle which is or which the member reasonably believes to be registered in the State, has not been paid in respect of a continuous period of 3 months or more immediately prior to such use.

No tax displayed is a seperate offence, and it may cause the guard to be 'of (the) opinion' it's not taxed. However, a simple radio check will tell if the vehicle has been taxed.

With regards insurance, you have 10 days to produce your certificate of insurance, so it's hard to know if the bike is insured at the side of the road, but the Guard would need reasonable cause to believe you didn't have insurance. Not having the cert on your person wouldn't normally be enough, on its own.

BaronVon

Beckett Full Leadership wrote: »

On a loosely related subject someone might point me in the right direction.

I bought a new bike three weeks ago and only received my documents through the post this morning.

I went to tax the bike but its taxed until May, but I don't have a tax disc!.

Simple question, how do I go about getting a replacement and is there a charge for a replacement?.

Get this form stamped at your local Garda Station, costs €6 afaik

The fact the bike is taxed will be recorded on the computer, so a simple radio check should get you out of trouble, if you couldn't be arsed!

esforum

Mixed89 wrote: »

At the end of the day he has no right to take the bike off the road if it is properly taxed and insured. My main concern is about the insurance, if I have to carry the cert with me at all times

It wasnt properly taxed, you were not displaying a disc, any disc. For all he knew you never taxed it in your life.

Your manner and comments here, I would have seized.

dev100 wrote: »

You have a month to pay it once it's expired

dev100 wrote: »

My tax expired at the end of feb:

On the tax renewal form section 01 (iv)
Application is made prior to or during March 2016

So as long I've paid my car tax within the month of March the cops don't interfere with ya

I've went thru many a check point having done that and nothing has ever been said and Go over the month they will talk to ya .

Well that's my interpretation of it

the tax renewal form is for the financial amount you have to pay ie back months. Its nothing to do with being legally taxed or if Gardai can seize.

Expired is expired

Del2005

infacteh wrote: »

With regards insurance, you have 10 days to produce your certificate of insurance, so it's hard to know if the bike is insured at the side of the road, but the Guard would need reasonable cause to believe you didn't have insurance. Not having the cert on your person wouldn't normally be enough, on its own.

You have to prove that it's insured if the Garda asks. They don't need any reason to doubt as riding or driving is a privilege not a right, as ruled by EU courts, and since insurance is mandatory it's up to you to prove your legal not them to prove you aren't.

BaronVon

Del2005 wrote: »

You have to prove that it's insured if the Garda asks. They don't need any reason to doubt as riding or driving is a privilege not a right, as ruled by EU courts, and since insurance is mandatory it's up to you to prove your legal not them to prove you aren't.

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

esforum

infacteh wrote: »

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

no proof of insurance and no tax would be perfectly reasonable grounds.

Also, I dont follow your thought process about certs of insurance.

Del2005

infacteh wrote: »

Yeah, but you're not required to carry your certificate of insurance around, that's why you get 10 days to produce it. Absence of a certificate at the side of the road, on its own, isn't sufficient grounds to believe someone doesn't have insurance. With cars you have the insurance disc in the window, but all that tells you is the vehicle is insured.

No harm carrying it around with you, or a copy of it, but it wouldn't be grounds alone for having your bike seized.

Disc on the window of a car proves nothing and carrying a cert is the same, you can cancel the policy or have it cancelled and still have a cert. They give you 10 days to produce if they think you are insured if they don't think your insured then they'll lift it, or more usually they treat you as you treat them.

If the Garda thinks your not insured and it's outside business hours for your company they can lift it, as you have no way to prove that the vehicle is insured. My last few bike policies have been emailed to me, it's hard to change details on a pdf if I wanted to to alter the cert. Which is why we should have a similar system to the UK with a central database that can be contacted at any time to verify your policy.

cerastes

Boskowski wrote: »

Rather than disagreeing with him you should have showed him the email receipt of you paying the tax and said 'sorry officer'.
I know I'm generalising but fellas (and gals) in uniform typically don't respond well to someone openly disagreeing with them.

What email receipt? I dont think you get one, but one would be a good idea, you get the option to print off what comes up on the screen, which I usually copy and paste into word as printing off from that screen never seems to work for me and once the window closes you cant get it back, in my experience.

mickdw wrote: »

You failed the all important attitude test.
You did not have valid tax displayed. Whether paid for or not, that is an offence and as such garda was within his right to fine you if he wished.
If you had been nice about it instead of disagreeing with him, things might have gone alot better.

How can you not dissagree with someone if they are claiming you dont have ins, when you do? while not required to carry a cert,
What do you do? agree and say you dont have ins??
As for the tax, tbh, as long as its not declared off the road then there are very limited ways out, rather than having to go to the uneccessary need of processing the information and further paper and leg work by the gardai, wouldnt it be much easier to have them issue an on the spot fine of something proportionate to the length tax has been out of date? and a requirement to pay the tax too?

esforum wrote: »

no proof of insurance and no tax would be perfectly reasonable grounds.
Also, I dont follow your thought process about certs of insurance.

How is someone expected to prove they have ins on the spot, the vast majority of all riders dont carry their ins certs on them, at all, and arent required to do so, so on what grounds can a bike be taken if there is no means or requirement to actually prove its insured, its not like the chap couldnt identify themselves as they said they had their licence, all thats required is to get them to provide the ints cert as is allowed within 10 days.
Anything else is being intentionally difficult, and I dont believe in pandering to someones ego, doesnt mean you cant be civil, which in itself is something Ive notcied is in short supply from some Gardai at the roadside for some reason, I cant say Ive experienced this same advesarial attitude if I have to go to a station.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sorry OP no answers for you except to say it sounds like you got a tosser, and tbh most of them are complete tossers.

Then when something happens which they can't handle they ask for the public's help, meh.

All that, then the carry on of them with the public during the water protests ~ tbh I've little time for the whores, and certainly wouldn't be looking to help or co operate with one.

Mod note - calling gardai tossers and whores is not acceptable. User banned.

Hotblack Desiato

Crazy that the law still requires a valuable, non-waterproof piece of paper to be displayed on a bike. Also totally unnecessary in this day and age.

I always keep my bikes taxed and carry the discs with me, but haven't displayed one in close on 20 years and at 88 euro a pop I'm not about to start either.

esforum

cerastes wrote: »

How is someone expected to prove they have ins on the spot, the vast majority of all riders dont carry their ins certs on them, at all, and arent required to do so, so on what grounds can a bike be taken if there is no means or requirement to actually prove its insured, its not like the chap couldnt identify themselves as they said they had their licence, all thats required is to get them to provide the ints cert as is allowed within 10 days.
Anything else is being intentionally difficult, and I dont believe in pandering to someones ego, doesnt mean you cant be civil, which in itself is something Ive notcied is in short supply from some Gardai at the roadside for some reason, I cant say Ive experienced this same advesarial attitude if I have to go to a station.

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized? The OP had no tax and no proof of either tax or insurance. How can a car be seized either?

Intentionally difficult? Its difficult to carry a piece of paper or a tax disk? Cmon now, both are pretty easy and I would suggest that if tax had been produced the insurance aspect would have been dealt with far quicker

esforum

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9935452

Mixed89 wrote: »

There might be, but i'm not sharing the rest of the story as I'm actually building up a case after this incident. At the end of the day he has no right to take the bike off the road if it is properly taxed and insured. My main concern is about the insurance, if I have to carry the cert with me at all times

From a few of the lads at work who have bikes , they say you are meant to carry a copy of your insurance cert with you but i googling it i cant find anything to back that up. Did you have the insurance disc with you either?
If you didnt have the insurance disc , you were on a bike with no valid tax disc and no proof of insurance.

My gut feeling when i was reading the first post was, you were pulled for another reason, most likely someone reported you for dangerous driving. What people dont seem to realise that an aweful lot of checkpoints are put in place brcause they are waiting for a car/driver that has been reported to them. You will see them waving on a load of cars and then pulling in certain ones which match a description they have.
To be fair you have more or less admitted above there is more too it.

Paulw

9935452 wrote: »

From a few of the lads at work who have bikes , they say you are meant to carry a copy of your insurance cert with you but i googling it i cant find anything to back that up. Did you have the insurance disc with you either?
If you didnt have the insurance disc , you were on a bike with no valid tax disc and no proof of insurance.

You obviously aren't a bike rider. There is no insurance disc for a bike. Only a tax disc, and then the insurance documentation and cert, no disc.

There isn't a legal requirement to carry the insurance cert with you, that I can find, only to be insured.

Cienciano

esforum wrote: »

It wasnt properly taxed, you were not displaying a disc, any disc. For all he knew you never taxed it in your life.

Your manner and comments here, I would have seized.

The bike was properly taxed, failure to display tax is not a reason to seize a bike.

esforum wrote: »

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized? The OP had no tax and no proof of either tax or insurance. How can a car be seized either?

A quick google will tell you this, tax out by more than 2 months is reason to seize a vehicle.

esforum

no, it wasnt properly taxed. The disc had expired and being thrown out and I am well aware that 2 months for tax is the criteria thanks but that little nugget changed nothing. If you have zero proof of tax with you and thats not a reason for a Garda to act, when would it ever be? Only if you are stupid enough to produce a tax disc more than 2 months out?

9935452

Paulw wrote: »

You obviously aren't a bike rider. There is no insurance disc for a bike. Only a tax disc, and then the insurance documentation and cert, no disc.

There isn't a legal requirement to carry the insurance cert with you, that I can find, only to be insured.

The same requirement is there for a tractor. Tax disc only needed to be displayed but most lads will put up the insurance disc. it easier if you are stopped.
I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.
I have a quad bike insured and taxed and laminate the discs together so they wont get destroyed by water

Big Nasty

<snip>

Paulw

9935452 wrote: »

I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.

I think it would make a lot more sense to do as they do in the UK - do away with tax and insurance discs, and enable the police (Gardai) to immediately check if a vehicle is taxed/insured, with some online system for them. Enable ANPR to be linked to tax/insurance databases to verify the status.

mamax

Seriously lads is it that hard to print off insurance cert ?
You could even keep it under the seat, legal requirement or not it would save a whole lot of fcukin about when stopped.

cerastes

esforum wrote: »

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized? The OP had no tax and no proof of either tax or insurance. How can a car be seized either?

Intentionally difficult? Its difficult to carry a piece of paper or a tax disk? Cmon now, both are pretty easy and I would suggest that if tax had been produced the insurance aspect would have been dealt with far quicker

Not required to, shouldnt be asked for it on the spot, end of. If its deemed necessary I can provied that to a station of my choice within ten days, if I dont well it will be known who I am and I'll be summonsed presumably. So there is no basis to take a bike off someone for no tax out for the duration suggested and certainly not for having no insurance cert on your person, as its not required, especially as the person can be identified as that can be followed up, if the person cant be identified, well thats a different story.

mamax wrote: »

Seriously lads is it that hard to print off insurance cert ?
You could even keep it under the seat, legal requirement or not it would save a whole lot of fcukin about when stopped.

Not required to, I never received an online copy of my cert originally, I didnt even get it on headed paper, had to request a headed version so I could show it, but I was insured.

Del2005

9935452 wrote: »

The same requirement is there for a tractor. Tax disc only needed to be displayed but most lads will put up the insurance disc. it easier if you are stopped.
I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.
I have a quad bike insured and taxed and laminate the discs together so they wont get destroyed by water

It's hard enough getting somewhere to stick the tax disc on a bike, with an insurance disc it would have my reg completely covered.

What we need is a database which the Gardai to access to see if the vehicle is legit, pieces of paper are easily faked.

Cienciano

esforum wrote: »

no, it wasnt properly taxed. The disc had expired and being thrown out and I am well aware that 2 months for tax is the criteria thanks but that little nugget changed nothing. If you have zero proof of tax with you and thats not a reason for a Garda to act, when would it ever be? Only if you are stupid enough to produce a tax disc more than 2 months out?

The bike was properly taxed, as mentioned above, displaying the tax disk is a separate issue. The motor tax was paid.
As for the 2 months, you asked a question and I gave an answer.

Hotblack Desiato

esforum wrote: »

By that rational, how can anyones bikes ever be seized?

Why would you want to seize a road legal bike?

The OP had no tax

Wrong.

Ayrtonf7

I've always carried my tax disc and insurance cert with me since day 1 to avoid the same problem the OP was having. The tax disc stays in my pocket (as mentioned previously, there €80 and some change so who wants to have one stolen) and the two times its been produced from there its never been questioned. Insurance cert is the exact same.

I think when it comes to the Garda your best bet is "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". Show them respect and the vast majority will do the same. I couldn't blame any Garda for acting difficult if the person he is dealing with is also doing the same.

The attitude towards the Garda some people have of this thread though is ****. Its clear enough that there was something going on before hand that the OP cant mention (Because of a case?) and its unlikely that a Garda would have somebody pulled over for 2 hours unless there had been something happening beforehand, but people still slate the Garda and act like teenagers with their insults! Unbelievable

Mesrine65

Ayrtonf7 wrote: »

I think when it comes to the Garda your best bet is "Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir". Show them respect and the vast majority will do the same.

Want respect...give respect!

It's not a case of ACAB, but there are some power-tripping AGS out there who think it's their remit to fuck with you at any given oppurtunity :eek:

Thank fuck the decent ones out-ratio the power-trippers!

Max Headroom

Give them a uniform and they think their gods......now am I still talking about guards or bikers...:p

bladespin

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Want respect...give respect!

A good philosophy but wears a little thin when you're dealing with chancers on a extremely regular basis, tends to make them a bit cynical IMO.

TBH I've never had a problem, OP's problem stemmed from displaying an out of date tax disk which led on to other suspicions, should have been handled better but neither side's without blame. Keep it in order and they never give you any hassle is my experience, you'd be amazed what they can 'miss' when the tax is porper - loud pipe, small plates etc. Don't seem to like colourder headlamp ocvers though - esp red or blue ones.

Skill Magill

I keep my tax disc laminated in my wallet, whilst keeping an out of date disc displayed on the bike, if a guard stops me, I'll whip out the wallet, If a thief gets stopped, the bike will be seized and returned to me.



I drove off with a krypto u lock on the front wheel a month or 2 ago, landed on the ground, right in front of a guard, who came over and helped me pick it up, its a very sweeping statement saying that all guards are tossers, they clearly are not.

mamax

9935452 wrote: »

I do believe that all vehicles should be made to display both tax and insurance, one set of rules for both.

Agreed, this should be done, less hassle for everyone imo