Dilemma: Continue to drop body fat or bulk.

Marty McFly

Hi thanks for taking the time to read this.

OK so about 8 weeks ago I decided to drop body fat weighing 80kg and 18% body fat. I've now dropped to 15% body fat and at last time on the scales down to 76kg.

So body fat wise was aiming for 12% problem is now I'm no longer happy with my shape and size clothes that fitted well have now gone baggy and I don't feel as confident in them. I'm 6ft and what would be described as an ectomorph at 80 I felt comfortable now I feel like connor mcgregor at a weigh in looking like a junkie.

So should I continue to drop body fat then try build up again very slowly say like am excess of 100 calories per day while trying to maintain body fat?

Am I better off bulking up to say 90kg then drop body fat?

Or is it possible to bulk back up without putting on to much excess fat?

I'm at a loss with what to do but I do know I thought dropping fat would make me feel good but it has had the opposite effect.

jive

Drop until happy with body fat level then bulk. No point in bulking at 15% because that % will likely increase and, to be honest, everyone should try stay below or around 15% for optimal health and wellbeing.

I know dem feels but better to slowly bulk on a less padded canvas for your health if nothing else. Forget about how you look for a few weeks, you know it's very temporary.

Also this is all assuming your in a normal BMI range (in b4 BMI is sh1t)

Mellor

Marty McFly wrote: »

...now I feel like connor mcgregor at a weigh in looking like a junkie.

Have you told him that?


I know what you mean though. I'm usually comfortable around 76kg. If I try to go down to the 73kg division for competition, I just feel skinny and weak.

But if I had to chose I'd rather lose the fat first, then bulk than the reverse.

Hanley

If you're 15%, you're too fat to bulk.

Get down to 11-12% before going anywhere because any weight you do gain is more likely to be fat than muscle in the higher bodyfat% ranges.

Irishcrx

Going to do something odd and disagree with Hanley for once just based on personal experience.

While what he says is generally true , it's not for everyone. Are your new to weightlifting? As in a beginner?

When I started training I was 145 pounds at 5'8 and body fat percentage was around 15% when I started bulking...after 6-7 month's I was 170 pounds and while not all of that was muscle a vast majority of it was. I knew this because I could see it in the mirror and my strength had gone up and up.

My body composition changed , I lost fat around my stomach and just became larger in my chest , arms, shoulders and back. This then slowed down after 6 month's and I cut weight back by ten pounds and was pretty lean with muscle.

The differance is if you cut now there will be no muscle to show it at all, no abs..nothing. Yes it's easier to build from a lean state but I believe this is more for experienced trainers , newbies at your body fat level can bulk IMO, over 20% maybe not but you don't have to be as low as 10-12 to bulk and if your new to lifting definately not.

Keep in mind that as I gained muscle , reduced fat that worked for me but won't for everyone , I lifted 4-5 days a week and did cardio (Intense football training) 2-3 days a week and this is definately the main reason my body changed the way it did , without the cardio I have no doubt the fat wouldn't have changed.

Also keep in mind that after 6 month's I changed my pattern and had to work harder to gain muscle and lose fat the 'traditional' way bulk - cut.

But one thing I never wanted to do was go near 145 in weight again , know exactly what you mean about the clothes and confidence.

Hanley - although disagreeing with you - I think your general advise and videos are brilliant!

Alf Veedersane

Pretty sure Marty isn't a newbie to weights.

Irishcrx

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Pretty sure Marty isn't a newbie to weights.

I'd still say he can clean bulk safely and drop the fat later if he isn't comfortable becoming a rake.

Alf Veedersane

Irishcrx wrote: »

I'd still say he can clean bulk safely and drop the fat later if he isn't comfortable becoming a rake.

He doesn't have to drop a huge amount of weight to get to 12%. Maybe 2kg.

The more fat you have, the less anabolic insulin is for muscle and that decreases the effectiveness of training for muscle and strength gains and you end up putting on more fat than muscle.

It makes more sense to put a bit of effort in now to cut the bf % rather than bulk now, putting in a lot of effort and getting less return than you should

jive

Irishcrx wrote: »

I'd still say he can clean bulk safely and drop the fat later if he isn't comfortable becoming a rake.

Short term pain for long term gain should come into play here.

Diet for another month, get to 10% body fat and look shreddied for that Irish summer sun but mediocre in clothes (Kevin spacey 'I just want to look good naked' school of thought). Gain 20lbs over 12 months, still be <15% body fat and look good clothed in clothes and in your undies.

Don't diet for another month, don't be ripped and instead of being shreddy mcgregor be that bloaty mcgregor vs Diaz. You will look negligibly better in clothes (no1 other than you notices such minor nuances in physique) but after a few months (say 6) of bulking you will think 'I'm a chubby hoe' then will diet again for 2 months and be roughly where you are today.

Hanley

Irishcrx wrote: »

Going to do something odd and disagree with Hanley for once just based on personal experience.

While what he says is generally true , it's not for everyone. Are your new to weightlifting? As in a beginner?

When I started training I was 145 pounds at 5'8 and body fat percentage was around 15% when I started bulking...after 6-7 month's I was 170 pounds and while not all of that was muscle a vast majority of it was. I knew this because I could see it in the mirror and my strength had gone up and up.

My body composition changed , I lost fat around my stomach and just became larger in my chest , arms, shoulders and back. This then slowed down after 6 month's and I cut weight back by ten pounds and was pretty lean with muscle.

The differance is if you cut now there will be no muscle to show it at all, no abs..nothing. Yes it's easier to build from a lean state but I believe this is more for experienced trainers , newbies at your body fat level can bulk IMO, over 20% maybe not but you don't have to be as low as 10-12 to bulk and if your new to lifting definately not.

Keep in mind that as I gained muscle , reduced fat that worked for me but won't for everyone , I lifted 4-5 days a week and did cardio (Intense football training) 2-3 days a week and this is definately the main reason my body changed the way it did , without the cardio I have no doubt the fat wouldn't have changed.

Also keep in mind that after 6 month's I changed my pattern and had to work harder to gain muscle and lose fat the 'traditional' way bulk - cut.

But one thing I never wanted to do was go near 145 in weight again , know exactly what you mean about the clothes and confidence.

Hanley - although disagreeing with you - I think your general advise and videos are brilliant!

You're misunderstanding my post.

I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm saying it's wildly inefficient.

I don't have the exact numbers to hand, but here's the problem..

If he's 18% and gains 5kg, say 3kg of it will be fat, 2kg will be muscle (40%).

If he's 12% and gains 3kg, 1.5 to 2kg of it will be fat, 1 to 1.5kg will be muscle (50-60%).

As he gets heavier and heavier, a lower proportion of the weight gained will be muscle, and a higher % will be fat. He'll be gaining weight, but not muscle.

That means he gets fatter and fatter, and muscle gain slows down. Then 6 months later he cuts, it takes longer, he risks losing more muscle, and he probably ends up cutting to the exact same bodyweight and muscle mass, or even more likely, worse, than if he just took a slow and steady approach.

EDIT: Plus he's been around boards a long time, and if he's been in the gym all that time he's not getting any newbie gainzz any time soon.

Anyone who've ever dieted down to low bodyfat % levels will tell you that the biggest muscle gain phase of their lives comes directly after they start to increase kcals again. Your far more insulin sensitive, amongst other things, which is why its MUCH better to diet down to a lean level before trying "bulk".

Irishcrx

Hanley wrote: »

You're misunderstanding my post.

I'm not saying he can't do it, I'm saying it's wildly inefficient.

I don't have the exact numbers to hand, but here's the problem..

If he's 18% and gains 5kg, say 3kg of it will be fat, 2kg will be muscle (40%).

If he's 12% and gains 3kg, 1.5 to 2kg of it will be fat, 1 to 1.5kg will be muscle (50-60%).

As he gets heavier and heavier, a lower proportion of the weight gained will be muscle, and a higher % will be fat. He'll be gaining weight, but not muscle.

That means he gets fatter and fatter, and muscle gain slows down. Then 6 months later he cuts, it takes longer, he risks losing more muscle, and he probably ends up cutting to the exact same bodyweight and muscle mass, or even more likely, worse, than if he just took a slow and steady approach.

EDIT: Plus he's been around boards a long time, and if he's been in the gym all that time he's not getting any newbie gainzz any time soon.

Anyone who've ever dieted down to low bodyfat % levels will tell you that the biggest muscle gain phase of their lives comes directly after they start to increase kcals again. Your far more insulin sensitive, amongst other things, which is why its MUCH better to diet down to a lean level before trying "bulk".

Ok I understand what your saying and your right. He will be at his most efficent in terms of building capacity at his leanest state yes, but he's uncomfortable going down that far without the muscle mass to support it.

To say he will end up back where he started at worst isn't true , yes he will have more body fat to cut but to but he won't lose his muscle mass dramatically if he continues to lift and eat correctly during his cut, he'd have a much differant muscle orientated body composition when he came back down.

Mellor

Irishcrx wrote: »

When I started training I was 145 pounds at 5'8 and body fat percentage was around 15% when I started bulking...after 6-7 month's I was 170 pounds and while not all of that was muscle a vast majority of it was. I knew this because I could see it in the mirror and my strength had gone up and up.

Minor side point, but strength increasing doesn't necessarily mean you've added muscle. Especially when starting out.

Alf Veedersane

Irishcrx wrote: »

Ok I understand what your saying and your right. He will be at his most efficent in terms of building capacity at his leanest state yes, but he's uncomfortable going down that far without the muscle mass to support it.

To say he will end up back where he started at worst isn't true , yes he will have more body fat to cut but to but he won't lose his muscle mass dramatically if he continues to lift and eat correctly during his cut, he'd have a much differant muscle orientated body composition when he came back down.

The point is that he puts on less muscle if he started to bulk now.

Not just that he puts on more fat.

He's at 76kg. He won't end up looking like someone from a PoW camp by cutting a couple more percent.

JJayoo

OP your just gonna have to suck it up and get leaner. Start clean bulking again mid July.

Irishcrx

OP - While everything Alf and Hanley have said is relevent and makes total sense you asked.

'Is it possible to bulk back up without putting on to much excess fat?'

Yes it is - It's just a slower process overall and depending on diet less percentage of what you gain will be muscle but it can and has been done.

Done it the way you feel right and feel good. I feel the important thing about the whole process is staying motivated and feeling good in yourself at all times, that works for me . When I'm bulking I'm getting bigger , adding mass and muscle so I feel good. When I'm cutting I'm getting leaner and seeing my results so I'm also happy.

You know your body shape, size and mind better so take everything above on board and make a decision on which way to go, both can be done well if done right.

Alf Veedersane

Irishcrx wrote: »

OP - While everything Alf and Hanley have said is relevent and makes total sense you asked.

'Is it possible to bulk back up without putting on to much excess fat?'

Yes it is - It's just a slower process overall and depending on diet less percentage of what you gain will be muscle but it can and has been done.

Done it the way you feel right and feel good. I feel the important thing about the whole process is staying motivated and feeling good in yourself at all times, that works for me . When I'm bulking I'm getting bigger , adding mass and muscle so I feel good. When I'm cutting I'm getting leaner and seeing my results so I'm also happy.

You know your body shape, size and mind better so take everything above on board and make a decision on which way to go, both can be done well if done right.

To be fair, you're kind of dismissing a lot of science and sense based on what you experienced as a newbie.

Bulking at a higher bodyfat reduces the proportion of muscle and increases the proportion of fat the OP puts on versus what he'd put on by cutting 2/3 kgs and dropping to 12%.

It makes little/no sense to not cut and then get a productive bulk rather than bulk now and wind up with more fat and less muscle than he should.

But yeah the OP could bulk now and make muscle gains. It just doesn't make sense to do it more efficiently. Like I said, he's 76kg. He won't be starring in the Machinist 2 by cutting a little more fat.

Irishcrx

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

To be fair, you're kind of dismissing a lot of science and sense based on what you experienced as a newbie.

Bulking at a higher bodyfat reduces the proportion of muscle and increases the proportion of fat the OP puts on versus what he'd put on by cutting 2/3 kgs and dropping to 12%.

It makes little/no sense to not cut and then get a productive bulk rather than bulk now and wind up with more fat and less muscle than he should.

But yeah the OP could bulk now and make muscle gains. It just doesn't make sense to do it more efficiently. Like I said, he's 76kg. He won't be starring in the Machinist 2 by cutting a little more fat.

I didn't dismiss any of it though , I agreed and acknowledged that you had said is true.

Look , at the end of the day he asked if it's possible, I told him yes , Yourself and Hanley told him the facts of how it works. It's important that he does what way is best for him and how he WANTS to do it based on the information provided , that's it...

Plenty of people bulk at that bodyfat percentage, put on some muscle and come back down - Not everyone starts out at 10-12% , they get there eventually.

I told him to do what's comfortable for him and to me that's the point.

I said that Newbie gains are just that , newbie gains. But I don't always think to myself, oh jesus I'm not seeing abs I can't bulk right now..If I feel like bulking or that I want to add size I will...it's not like we have 25' weather in Ireland most days and strut around the beach topless, so sometimes it's fine to carry some bodyfat while bulking if he's comfortable with it.

Alf Veedersane

Irishcrx wrote: »

I didn't dismiss any of it though , I agreed and acknowledged that you had said is true.

Look , at the end of the day he asked if it's possible, I told him yes , Yourself and Hanley told him the facts of how it works. It's important that he does what way is best for him and how he WANTS to do it based on the information provided , that's it...

Plenty of people bulk at that bodyfat percentage, put on some muscle and come back down - Not everyone starts out at 10-12% , they get there eventually.

I told him to do what's comfortable for him and to me that's the point.

I said that Newbie gains are just that , newbie gains. But I don't always think to myself, oh jesus I'm not seeing abs I can't bulk right now..If I feel like bulking or that I want to add size I will...it's not like we have 25' weather in Ireland most days and strut around the beach topless, so sometimes it's fine to carry some bodyfat while bulking if he's comfortable with it.

I'm not saying people do it all the time. It's not about walking around topless or the absence/presence of fat over the abs

It's just about the physiological fact that fat, above a certain level, causes the body to turn more of those calories into fat and less of them into muscle.

He wants to minimise the amount of excess fat. That's why it's been advised to continue the cut. We're talking a few weeks. Like jive said, short term pain for long term gain.

No one likes cutting. The couple of weeks now would have him a few times that of cutting if he starts bulking to 90kg now.

Edit: not being argumentative or anything like it. Just pointing out that it's just a much more efficient way of doing it. No one likes cutting so just best to reduce the cutting time.

Irishcrx

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

I'm not saying people do it all the time. It's not about walking around topless or the absence/presence of fat over the abs

It's just about the physiological fact that fat, above a certain level, causes the body to turn more of those calories into fat and less of them into muscle.

He wants to minimise the amount of excess fat. That's why it's been advised to continue the cut. We're talking a few weeks. Like jive said, short term pain for long term gain.

No one likes cutting. The couple of weeks now would have him a few times that of cutting if he starts bulking to 90kg now.

Yeah , look again I'm not disagreeing with you. It is only a couple of weeks , but you know yourself when you start thinking to yourself ' I hate this' it's a set up for failure , if he's uncomfortable he might be better of bulking , gaining some more lean mass and then coming down , that's all I was getting accross that it can be done if he wants to do it that way but it's not optimal.

I fecking love cutting lol , it's eating at bulk that's harder for me...find eating less much easier.

Hanley

Lads just FYI, by showing so much respect, courtesy and soundness, you're doing boards wrong.

jive

Hanley wrote: »

Lads just FYI, by showing so much respect, courtesy and soundness, you're doing boards wrong.

Píss off



Thread needs more balance

Alf Veedersane

As with any science, it's important to have references:

Bulking:

Cutting:

VisibleGorilla

If you're happy with how you look, then start a slow bulk, if not keep cutting.

I have similar stats and will cut down till around 10%, then start a bulk at a very slight caloric surplus.

Alf Veedersane

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

The more fat you have, the less anabolic insulin is for muscle and that decreases the effectiveness of training for muscle and strength gains and you end up putting on more fat than muscle.

I feel like I should put this on a poster on my wall

JJayoo

This thread has made me feel fat

Vegeta

Thread delivers

StickyMcGinty

I had the exact same question as the OP and this thread nails it. Thanks lads

Alf Veedersane

Just to tie up the last loose end...

Marty McFly wrote: »

clothes that fitted well have now gone baggy and I don't feel as confident in them.

Normal temperature wash -> high temperature dryer.

Clothes fit better.

Tips on bulking/cutting and sartorial advice. Thread of the year contender already.

Irishcrx

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Just to tie up the last loose end...



Normal temperature wash -> high temperature dryer.

Clothes fit better.

Tips on bulking/cutting and sartorial advice. Thread of the year contender already.

The mans not wrong , it's amazing the differance a properly fitted top can make.

'Did you get bigger man?'

'Nah the girlfriend roasted my tops for me'

JJayoo

How about a poll where we can decide your fate

Vote A) to Cut
Vote to Bulk
Vote C) for sex change

Hanley

JJayoo wrote: »

How about a poll where we can decide your fate

Vote A) to Cut
Vote to Bulk
Vote C) for sex change

Isn't that the exact route Matt Kroc took? :cool:

Irishcrx

Just as a follow up to this,

I myself had a recess during the week following this thread and reading over Hanley's points. I actually am starting to measure up around 17-18% bodyfat myself now and have noticed the muscle gain starting to decrease in proportion to weight as he said. Sometimes you don't even notice that you've been bulking too long until one day you look in the mirror and think 'Jesus IrishCrx where's the muscle hidden'

So I'm going back down 15 - 20 pounds till I reach 10 - 12% again and am going to try his lean bulking approach from there.

KissMeArse

Ah lads after reading through this thread, I don't know what to do or think and am a bit disheartened! I don't want to hijack the thread but just looking for some follow on advice or direction.

I started a bulk about 2 months ago, originally weighed about 77kg and somewhere between 15-18% BF. I realise from reading here that may not have been the best approach?
At the moment, I'm 85kg (obtained cleanly I may add) and have definitely noticed an increase in fat (I must be over 20% I would say). I've definitely increased my lifts and feel stronger and a bit bigger (but also fatter!). I was going to keep going to around 90kg and cut back down to about 85kg or less.

What direction would people recommend I head in now? Should I just keep going or would it be more beneficial now to start cutting? I just don't want it to be a case that the last few months were a waste.

Irishcrx

KissMeArse wrote: »

Ah lads after reading through this thread, I don't know what to do or think and am a bit disheartened! I don't want to hijack the thread but just looking for some follow on advice or direction.

I started a bulk about 2 months ago, originally weighed about 77kg and somewhere between 15-18% BF. I realise from reading here that may not have been the best approach?
At the moment, I'm 85kg (obtained cleanly I may add) and have definitely noticed an increase in fat (I must be over 20% I would say). I've definitely increased my lifts and feel stronger and a bit bigger (but also fatter!). I was going to keep going to around 90kg and cut back down to about 85kg or less.

What direction would people recommend I head in now? Should I just keep going or would it be more beneficial now to start cutting? I just don't want it to be a case that the last few months were a waste.

Ah look it's never a waste, it's only a waste if your half assing your approach in the gym. You've still gained muscle underneath it, if you cut back now and do it correctly , high protein , maintain lifts etc you'll reach a lower body fat with a little extra muscle and go from there , you'll still look better at the end.

If you keep going you'll still gain , just less muscle/fat ratio and you'll have more fat to cut later on if you want to end up very lean at the end of it.

Think of it as in phases , It's only 10 weeks and what not. You could lose 15 - 18 pounds in ten weeks rather cleanly if done right , imagine how much better you'd look with 15 pounds of FAT missing from your body, you'll always lose a small bit of muscle how much is down to your diet and training.