Protest outisde IFI in city west today.

pheasant tail

a148pro wrote: »

Can I ask what are the arguments here as its not entirely clear from the above? Are the IFI saying they need to cull pike to protect trout and salmon stocks? Or is it that they are putting the nets down to ascertain what is in the water and some pike are being killed as a result? Is there evidence that pike are damaging salmon / trout stocks? Is there science to show that you should cull them? I see a lot of cynicism here but I'd be surprised if the IFI are doing it without a scientific basis or because they themselves prefer trout fishing.

If pike have been here all along then obviously the argument for culling them is weaker, unless they've invaded certain water where they weren't previously or unless there's been some other change in the ecosystem that warrants killing them

I don't believe there is any direct evidence to say that trout numbers have improved due to pike removal, but obviously difficult to access without the usual biased answers. But even from speaking to anglers on Sheelin last year, they where complaining about the lack of fly life on the water/food for the trout and where contributing it to the big increase if roach and perch, but what do they expect when you remove the control species? Do we start taking out roach and perch to keep them happy until there's only trout left in the lake like 😀. . The basis of it been done as you asked was a combination of pike being invasive to these waters and couldn't possibility cohabitate with the trout without having a significant affect on the population of trout, and the fact that the pikes diet is mainly salmonid. But Debbie's paper a couple if years ago proved that pike where native which threw it all up in the sure for serious debate, wasn't it her paper that also found that <50% of the pikes diet is actually made up of fish? The paper was signed off by Martin O Grady and for anyone who was pro gill netting, it was their worse nightmare

pheasant tail

I do believe that the gill netting will finish up in the very near future, but let's face it, there will always be some form of pike removal undertaken on these waters

Reedsie

Pike and trout have survived together for thousands of years. Why IFI believe pike have become such a great threat in the last 60 years is the puzzle.


They recently published a report on Lough Ree, which isn't a 'pike managed' lake.

Dr Ciaran Byrne, CEO of Inland Fisheries Ireland, commented: “Currently Lough Ree can be regarded as one of Ireland’s premier mixed fisheries. Mixed, in this instance, is a reference to three different fish stocks – cyprinid, pike and trout stocks. The status of all of these fish populations is such that, presently, each of them can provide quality angling on a seasonal basis.”

twin_beacon

a148pro wrote: »

I see a lot of cynicism here but I'd be surprised if the IFI are doing it without a scientific basis or because they themselves prefer trout fishing.

You would think that, as thats the logical thing to do. However, logic and IFI do not always go hand in hand.

pheasant tail wrote: »

I do believe that the gill netting will finish up in the very near future, but let's face it, there will always be some form of pike removal undertaken on these waters

I feel we are a few years away yet, and it will take government intervention with many more protests for it to happen. this is the first year we will see a drop off of pike tourists (due to the attention this got in the international angling media), why come to Ireland when you can go to the Baltic for roughly the same money?

For it to happen sooner, I feel we will need to get the EU involved. I cant cut hedges on my farm from March 1st until Aug 31st to allow birds to nest, and thrive. Yet, a government body is doing the opposite to a native fish species?

a148pro

Thanks for replies. I think IFI need to come out and explain this and it doesn't seem they have. If there's an answer or a justification it should be given.

blackpearl

pheasant tail wrote: »

I don't believe there is any direct evidence to say that trout numbers have improved due to pike removal, but obviously difficult to access without the usual biased answers. But even from speaking to anglers on Sheelin last year, they where complaining about the lack of fly life on the water/food for the trout and where contributing it to the big increase if roach and perch, but what do they expect when you remove the control species? Do we start taking out roach and perch to keep them happy until there's only trout left in the lake like 😀. . The basis of it been done as you asked was a combination of pike being invasive to these waters and couldn't possibility cohabitate with the trout without having a significant affect on the population of trout, and the fact that the pikes diet is mainly salmonid. But Debbie's paper a couple if years ago proved that pike where native which threw it all up in the sure for serious debate, wasn't it her paper that also found that <50% of the pikes diet is actually made up of fish? The paper was signed off by Martin O Grady and for anyone who was pro gill netting, it was their worse nightmare

Have fished sheelin all my life who ever told you about fall of in fly life they must be on some other lake it still has the biggest mayfly hatch of any lake in Ireland the sedge hatch is unbelievable and buzzar well that's massive, as for roach numbers they go up and down every few years and their was 10 times more roach in sheelin when it was full of pike, perch numbers are down so the pike has no berring on that either,so you can go on ranting and raving about pike netting it serves a purpose on sheelin pike men have enough lakes all over monaghan ,cavan and Longford to keep them happy so hands of sheelin and the turn out that speaks for itself not even 200 nobody cares.

twin_beacon

blackpearl wrote: »

Have fished sheelin all my life who ever told you about fall of in fly life they must be on some other lake it still has the biggest mayfly hatch of any lake in Ireland the sedge hatch is unbelievable and buzzar well that's massive, as for roach numbers they go up and down every few years and their was 10 times more roach in sheelin when it was full of pike, perch numbers are down so the pike has no berring on that either,so you can go on ranting and raving about pike netting it serves a purpose on sheelin

I think you are missing the whole point of the argument. This is not "Pike Anglers" VS "Trout Anglers". IFI spends thousands each year on this pointless act. Money that could be much better off spent else where, to improve all types of angling in Ireland. Can I ask where you are getting your figures for the roach and pike population on sheelin, as if you are correct, it would go against all scientific research on the removal of an apex predator from a habitat.

If you think pike netting serves a purpose in any lake, give these lads a shout. They stopped culling pike around 20 years ago, and their trout fishing has never been better. http://www.llandegfedd.co.uk/fishing-llandegfedd

blackpearl wrote: »

pike men have enough lakes all over monaghan ,cavan and Longford to keep them happy so hands of sheelin and the turn out that speaks for itself not even 200 nobody cares.

Can I ask, how many "pike only" lakes are there in Ireland? None. There are are many lakes that have been taken over and made trout only.

As for the 200 that turned up, the protest was held on a Thursday (it had to be mid week to hand over the petition). The protest was supposed to last until 2pm, but at the request of the guards the protesters left when the petition was handed over which was around 12:30. Myself and many other people arrived after 1pm on out lunch break, to find that it had finished. If this could have been held at a weekend when people had time off work, I can assure you the turn out would have been a lot higher than 200.

For the record, I'm not just a "Pike Man". I'm an all rounder.

blackpearl

twin_beacon wrote: »

I think you are missing the whole point of the argument. This is not "Pike Anglers" VS "Trout Anglers". IFI spends thousands each year on this pointless act. Money that could be much better off spent else where, to improve all types of angling in Ireland. Can I ask where you are getting your figures for the roach and pike population on sheelin, as if you are correct, it would go against all scientific research on the removal of an apex predator from a habitat.

If you think pike netting serves a purpose in any lake, give these lads a shout. They stopped culling pike around 20 years ago, and their trout fishing has never been better. http://www.llandegfedd.co.uk/fishing-llandegfedd



Can I ask, how many "pike only" lakes are there in Ireland? None. There are are many lakes that have been taken over and made trout only.

As for the 200 that turned up, the protest was held on a Thursday (it had to be mid week to hand over the petition). The protest was supposed to last until 2pm, but at the request of the guards the protesters left when the petition was handed over which was around 12:30. Myself and many other people arrived after 1pm on out lunch break, to find that it had finished. If this could have been held at a weekend when people had time off work, I can assure you the turn out would have been a lot higher than 200.

For the record, I'm not just a "Pike Man". I'm an all rounder.

As far as the records on roach and perch numbers lets say I have been involved in that end of things and yes I think sheelin should be trout only and perch their are one of the best eating fish around and yes I am not one of the catch and release club I eat what I catch the same as I eat what I shoot, but I will say it again their is enough pike lakes in Ireland, the name sheelin is talked about all over Europe and its not because of pike its because of trout and they come from all over the world to fish it I think their were trout anglers from 26 different countries their last year what does that tell you so hands of its a trout lake and the best dry fly one in Europe if not the world and will always stay that way.

twin_beacon

blackpearl wrote: »

As far as the records on roach and perch numbers lets say I have been involved in that end of things and yes I think sheelin should be trout only and perch their are one of the best eating fish around and yes I am not one of the catch and release club I eat what I catch the same as I eat what I shoot

I'm not all catch and release either, I keep the odd trout (within the size and bag limits. many clubs I've seen think those rules don't apply to them). I also keep a good few roach for dead baiting and trolling for Ferox. What have you been involved in regarding the stock levels, if you don't mind me asking? I ask because all of the official stock surveys performed by IFI are based on setting gill nets at the same parts of lakes, at the same time of the year, while ignoring water temperatures. This results in false readings, as if you have a warm spring, the coarse fish and pike will spawn earlier, and a cold spring will result in them spawning later. So over the course of a few years of stock surveys, the results could be very different than the actual stock levels, as the fish are in a different part the lake. My point being, its very difficult to get an estimate of stock levels on a lake the size of sheelin. All the IFI surveys show is the stock levels around the nets at the time the survey was taken.

blackpearl wrote: »

but I will say it again their is enough pike lakes in Ireland, the name sheelin is talked about all over Europe and its not because of pike its because of trout and they come from all over the world to fish it I think their were trout anglers from 26 different countries their last year what does that tell you so hands of its a trout lake and the best dry fly one in Europe if not the world and will always stay that way.

Why should a lake, that is 19 square kilometers, be trout only?
Are there not enough brown trout lakes in Ireland? Corrib, Conn, Mask, Derg, Ree, Allen, Ennell, Owel, Derravaragh, and of course Sheelin. Thats only the large loughs. Would I like to see any of those lakes pike or coarse only? Definitely not.

I would well believe that anglers from 26 countries came to fish Sheelin for trout last year. All those anglers probably stayed in local hotels and B&Bs and pumped money into the local economy. The next question, how many pike anglers came from europe last year to fish on Sheelin? Before making the lake trout only, you should talk to the hotels and B&Bs in the local area how they would feel about it, because the pike anglers will probably still come, but will fish one of the lakes I mentioned above, or fish the Shannon or Erne systems, and spend their money there.

Take the 3 day pike festival currently being held on Lough Ree in Athlone. I'm not sure of the figures for this year, but last year 80 boats fished the festival (it was actually capped at 80, some anglers were turned away), 2 anglers per boat. Anglers came from all over Europe, and some anglers came from the united states to fish it last year. Failte Ireland started the festival in 2009, when they stopped funding it, Westmeath Count Council stepped in, as it brings money into the local economy. The 3 day "Predator Tour" festival held on Lough Derg in September is the same, anglers come from all over Europe to fish it, bringing money into the local economy.

A similar festival on Lough Sheelin would be a success, and would bring in money into the local economy, and would have zero impact on trout, or trout anglers, Just have it after the trout season. Same can be said for Corrib, I fish that lake many times during the year. Superb trout and pike fishing. So much untapped angling tourism potential there. My best pike fishing day ever was there in the month of November. Three 20lb+ pike on the boat, and I seen one other boat on the lake the same day!

blackpearl wrote: »

hands of its a trout lake

No, its a mixed fishery. Trout and Pike have been there since the last Ice age. However, look at the example I gave in my last post, Llandegfedd reservoir in the UK. They spend money stocking the lake with trout every year, and don't spend a penny on removing pike. They used to cull the pike, but stopped around 20 years ago, as they realized it was pointless, and actually impacted negatively on trout stocks. This is not a stand alone example. We are the only country in europe that culls pike, and all scientific evidence has proven that impacts negatively on the entire fishery as the natural balance has been altered.

pheasant tail

blackpearl wrote: »

As far as the records on roach and perch numbers lets say I have been involved in that end of things and yes I think sheelin should be trout only and perch their are one of the best eating fish around and yes I am not one of the catch and release club I eat what I catch the same as I eat what I shoot, but I will say it again their is enough pike lakes in Ireland, the name sheelin is talked about all over Europe and its not because of pike its because of trout and they come from all over the world to fish it I think their were trout anglers from 26 different countries their last year what does that tell you so hands of its a trout lake and the best dry fly one in Europe if not the world and will always stay that way.

Where are you coming from with your 'hands off Sheelin', where not going to run down to it and take all the trout out of it, relax!! And we are allowed to pike fish it, we actually plan to concentrate a lot of our pike fishing on that lake come September and later into the year providing it stays open. You fish Sheelin for trout. I fish Sheelin for trout and pike. I pay the same amount of money as you each year to fish the lake so I have the very same right as you in what fish you want to catch.

I don't know what way you have been involved, I'd love if you could PM me the info on the roach and perch numbers because frankly, I couldn't believe it until shown otherwise.

So people from 26 different countries came to fish Sheelin last year for trout, that's brilliant, obviously great advertising, marketing, and most importantly, excellent fishing. I can guarantee you IFI would be delighted with them results,why.. because of the revenue it generates and the publication it gets. As the poster above already said, imagine if we where managing our lakes over here the way they do In the UK, like Chew & Llandegfedd, both perfect example of how trout and pike anglers can effectively use the same sheet of water with top results. Your missing the bigger picture and only seen it from the side that suits you. I don't blame you, your attitude is one created by the perceived acceptable practices by our authorities.Yet IFI want to increase revenue in the NADP, yet produce a report in 2012 saying that competitor countries have an advantage of Ireland due to how they manage their fisheries, a tad bit ironik that one.

Trout stocks have been declining for years and was blamed solely on the apparent increase of the invasive pike stocks. But trout stocks continue to decline in waters where there are no apparent 'pike problem' and in rivers which are devoid of pike. Are pike the problem? NO! The problem is water quality. It's just easier for IFI to blame it on pike and they can look like their doing something about it by dropping their nets. As you know, Sheelin has had a long history of pollution and the EPA has classified it as highly eutrophic. Another reason why I don't think your notion about roach and perch stocks could be correct. With trout requiring better quality water than these fish to spawn and reach their potential, you are naturally going to have an increase in roach and perch populations, even before you remove any pike. Imagine IFI saving >50,000 per year by stopping pike removal and putting that money back into spawning beds and habitats. Let alone the money that could be created from pike anglers and re-invested.

A pike caught on Lough Derg in 2012 weighed 22lbs, and was tagged by IFI at 3.5lbs, only 6 years previously. That's near double the growth rate that have been found on some UK waters. There are writings and papers dating back as far as 1850 detailing about the great pike AND trout fishing in the western lakes, before pollution was ever a problem. Sad thing is, the county's pike angling requires very little management and resources, yet has enormous potential if managed correctly.

blackpearl

Sheelin is a trout lake end of story some people on here say they fish for pike and trout don't make me laugh your pike first and that's a fact so you can stand on your head it always will be a trout lake ,most of the pike that are netted out of sheelin are put in other lakes aroud cavan and monaghan and the odd pike that dies well boo ho its fish were talking about not people forget about sheelin and move on its not going to happen.

pheasant tail

blackpearl wrote: »

Sheelin is a trout lake end of story some people on here say they fish for pike and trout don't make me laugh your pike first and that's a fact so you can stand on your head it always will be a trout lake ,most of the pike that are netted out of sheelin are put in other lakes aroud cavan and monaghan and the odd pike that dies well boo ho its fish were talking about not people forget about sheelin and move on its not going to happen.

Again, it's not about that, and the pike could actually be better off all dying if it means them been transferred into different systems with the problems that it can cause in the recipient waters. But anyhow I'm going to just leave it at that with ya, couldn't be bothered, your just looking at this entirely true the trout goggles, you have your views, I've mine, the rest of us can always hope things will change in the future in the interest of anglers, fish and the environment, all the best to ya

pheasant tail

Twin Beacon, you said somewhere here that Ireland's the only country in Europe that pike are culled, are you certain this is true? IFI stated that it is still been carried out in other countries such as the UK, and they included Sweden..

blackpearl

pheasant tail wrote: »

Again, it's not about that, and the pike could actually be better off all dying if it means them been transferred into different systems with the problems that it can cause in the recipient waters. But anyhow I'm going to just leave it at that with ya, couldn't be bothered, your just looking at this entirely true the trout goggles, you have your views, I've mine, the rest of us can always hope things will change in the future in the interest of anglers, fish and the environment, all the best to ya

As far as sheelin is concerned yes true the trout goggles two much time and effort by the local club and fisheries bringing this great trout lake back to its former glory to give it up for pike fishing and all the best to you to.

demanufactured

blackpearl wrote: »

As far as the records on roach and perch numbers lets say I have been involved in that end of things and yes I think sheelin should be trout only and perch their are one of the best eating fish around and yes I am not one of the catch and release club I eat what I catch the same as I eat what I shoot, but I will say it again their is enough pike lakes in Ireland, the name sheelin is talked about all over Europe and its not because of pike its because of trout and they come from all over the world to fish it I think their were trout anglers from 26 different countries their last year what does that tell you so hands of its a trout lake and the best dry fly one in Europe if not the world and will always stay that way.

You sound like a fool.

blackpearl

demanufactured wrote: »

You sound like a fool.

Do you really think I care you clown

demanufactured

blackpearl wrote: »

Do you really think I care you clown

Why are you even posting on a thread that has no bearing on the species you fish for?

blackpearl

demanufactured wrote: »

Why are you even posting on a thread that has no bearing on the species you fish for?

I see all the posts you put up on this thread I will be up all night reading them go back to bed.:p

SeaFields

demanufactured wrote: »

You sound like a fool.

blackpearl wrote: »

Do you really think I care you clown

Mod. If ye are going to resort to name calling, do not post in this thread again. Attack the post, not the poster. Cards will be handed out next time.

twin_beacon

blackpearl wrote: »

Sheelin is a trout lake end of story some people on here say they fish for pike and trout don't make me laugh your pike first and that's a fact so you can stand on your head it always will be a trout lake

blackpearl wrote: »

As far as sheelin is concerned yes true the trout goggles two much time and effort by the local club and fisheries bringing this great trout lake back to its former glory to give it up for pike fishing and all the best to you to.

First of all, I'm an Angler. I fish all year around, for many species of fish, from both fresh and salt water. One of those species is Pike.
You have not engaged in any sort of discussion in any of the points I raised in my last 2 posts apart from saying, "Sheelin is a trout lake end of story", so I'm not going to engage much more.
One final point though, my anti-pike removal stance is not coming from a pike angler point of view, it from an angling point of view. If you believe that removing pike will improve trout numbers, then you need to do some research. I'm all for improving trout angling (as another species I fish for is Trout), but there is no scientific evidence that this is the way forward. Removing an apex predator means the prey numbers increase, while the food source remains the same (For an extreme case, have a look what happened in Australia when rabbits were introduced in the 18th century). Money being spent on the pointless act of gill netting, is doing a lot more harm than good for Sheelin.

pheasant tail wrote: »

Twin Beacon, you said somewhere here that Ireland's the only country in Europe that pike are culled, are you certain this is true? IFI stated that it is still been carried out in other countries such as the UK, and they included Sweden..

I have been googling, and I can't find anything about current gill netting in the UK. If it is happening, I would imagine that its not "state funded" like it is here, and is probably on private waters. I couldn't find anything about Sweden either, however that doesn't mean its not happening. I have also heard IFI make many statements in the past that are totally incorrect, so I won't believe it unless I see proof

pheasant tail

Neville Fickling has a good article in the most recent pike and predators edition about the protest at Cirywest. He said a re analysis of IFI's scientific evidence against the pike was carried out and released in PDF form at the same time, anyone know where this is?

pheasant tail

twin_beacon wrote: »

John, are IFI in breach of any European regulation, for culling a native species? (if it has been proven that pike are native to all the lakes the nets are being set)

It's good to be looking at this but I certainly can't see anything coming out if it. Europe has as far as I know, made it compulsory for IFI to manage trout and salmon populations in these wild lakes, by any means possible. Even if for example, protected species such certain birds, comorants, or even for example seals can be culled if they are proven to impact trout snd salmon stocks on these lakes. The issues lies there though in the actual scientific clarification, beyond any reasonable doubt, that pike or any other species actually impacts the stocks intended for protection and that their removal will have no spin-off negative affects for the fishery

kildare lad

Pike are proven to be native by a report done by the IFI a year or two ago. They shouldnt be allowed to keep gillnetting just to appease the trout men. Its a waste of resources that are badly needed needed elsewhere. Apparently the IFI are to cease stocking trout now as well. thats the dodder and tolka screwed. Any wild trout that are left in that will be gone in a season or two.

They really are a useless organisation, granted it has good people on the ground, but the decision makers are dinosaurs. They cant see outside there little bubble live in. On their facebook page they try and promote pike fishing, showing pics of nice pike caught recently but yet they slaughter thousands every year. They dont know their arse from there elbow.

twin_beacon

kildare lad wrote: »

Apparently the IFI are to cease stocking trout now as well. thats the dodder and tolka screwed. Any wild trout that are left in that will be gone in a season or two.

I heard that alright, this is going to be a massive blow to angling in Ireland, as there are some very large angling clubs on those rivers, with lots of young anglers. With the amount of abuse those rivers get by flowing through a large city (water quality and poaching), the future does not look good for their wild trout stocks.

jkchambers

There was a meeting of the main angling federations last night and the closure of hatcheries was high on the agenda. These closures could have a dire effect on the many clubs who rely on stock from Roscrea to keep their waters stocked and club memberships reasonable. The Dodder runs behind my house and it is great to see the scores of kids on the river from St Patricks Day onwards. While there are wild trout in the Dodder they rely on stockies to provide enough fish to keep the kids interested. The federations are working on a strategy to fight these closures.
You would never know, trout anglers may soon be joining us pike anglers protesting outside the IFI offices. All should remember that anglers are fighting against IFI policies that are decided on high and not against the rank and file staff of IFI who also seem to be rather annoyed with their management these days

thefisherbuy

twin_beacon wrote: »

I heard that alright, this is going to be a massive blow to angling in Ireland, as there are some very large angling clubs on those rivers, with lots of young anglers. With the amount of abuse those rivers get by flowing through a large city (water quality and poaching), the future does not look good for their wild trout stocks.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I heard this alright what other rivers do they stock other than the dodder and tolka? The tolka last year got s very bad pollution, killed everything the bad thing is that it kills insects too which would stop the surviving trout feeding, ifi need to get there head straight, the environment agency has stocked 2 million in 2015 alone, that is aside salmoids and also fish stocked out of stillwaters fisheries..

jkchambers

thefisherbuy wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I heard this alright what other rivers do they stock other than the dodder and tolka? The tolka last year got s very bad pollution, killed everything the bad thing is that it kills insects too which would stop the surviving trout feeding, ifi need to get there head straight, the environment agency has stocked 2 million in 2015 alone, that is aside salmoids and also fish stocked out of stillwaters fisheries..

Dozens of clubs all around the country get trout from IFI

twin_beacon

thefisherbuy wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking the thread, I heard this alright what other rivers do they stock other than the dodder and tolka? The tolka last year got s very bad pollution, killed everything the bad thing is that it kills insects too which would stop the surviving trout feeding, ifi need to get there head straight, the environment agency has stocked 2 million in 2015 alone, that is aside salmoids and also fish stocked out of stillwaters fisheries..

I remember that alright, the company that caused the pollution got a very small fine. Id say John would be more informed than me as to what other rivers are stocked. There are lots of stocked rainbow lakes too, some are man made, others are natural. The future doesn't look good for these lakes, which is a shame.

thefisherbuy

Yea that's right Twin, a very small fee, I just relised there's a few lake's near me that get stocked by ifi, What will happen now to them? already this has caused outrage, I suppose we will be seeing more protests!

pheasant tail

Just seen that the public service extended the deadline for applying to the IFI National Forum, must be low on numbers applying. Anyone who wants to get their say across and hopes to influence any new policies and developments should apply for this