Greatest ever English player?

wally79

Bill Shankly on Dixie Dean:

"Dixie was the greatest centre forward there will ever be. His record of goalscoring is the most amazing thing under the sun. He belongs in the company of the supremely greats, like Beethoven, Shakespeare and Rembrandt."

bucketybuck

Is this about the greatest "english" player or the greatest "England" player?

Shearer might be one of the greatest and most complete strikers ever, but his international career doesn't really reflect that. Whereas Beckham excelled as an international player but even as a fan there are players who outperformed him at club level.

Everybody seems to be talking about the international side, is that what is meant by the question?

jimmii

Muahahaha wrote: »

As did John Fashau

Fashanu was a fecking boss though. Would you tell him he couldn't be captain?

jimmii

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is this about the greatest "english" player or the greatest "England" player?

Shearer might be one of the greatest and most complete strikers ever, but his international career doesn't really reflect that. Whereas Beckham excelled as an international player but even as a fan there are players who outperformed him at club level.

Everybody seems to be talking about the international side, is that what is meant by the question?

Thread title is English so I'd say it's English and not just England that was my thinking anyway. Beckhams England career was exceptional people often overlook his incredible work rate just because he married a Spice Girl.

El Weirdo

Stan Bowles.

/thread

wally79

jimmii wrote: »

Thread title is English so I'd say it's English and not just England that was my thinking anyway. Beckhams England career was exceptional people often overlook his incredible work rate just because he married a Spice Girl.

I'm not a Beckham fan but I will say he was one of the dwindling number of players who seemed genuinely proud of playing for his country and that showed in his performances

Panthro

Frank Lampard

jimmii

wally79 wrote: »

I'm not a Beckham fan but I will say he was one of the dwindling number of players who seemed genuinely proud of playing for his country and that showed in his performances

For sure. No matter whether he was having a good day or a bad day you could be sure he would keep on running. I don't think anyone would try claim he was the most skillful player but he should would put in a shift. Shame it didn't filter down to other players more.

DoctaDee

wally79 wrote: »

I'm not a Beckham fan but I will say he was one of the dwindling number of players who seemed genuinely proud of playing for his country and that showed in his performances

Yeah wouldn't have been his biggest fan but he became a far better player for going to Madrid and that told when he retuned to represent the national team

SEPT 23 1989

Gascoigne was the last genuine world class player they had,if he had of been sent off for his challenge on Parker things could have been very different

bucketybuck

jimmii wrote: »

For sure. No matter whether he was having a good day or a bad day you could be sure he would keep on running. I don't think anyone would try claim he was the most skillful player but he should would put in a shift. Shame it didn't filter down to other players more.

But a lot more skillful than he gets credit for, he was genuinely a world class player in my opinion. Not the complete player, but unique and very very good at what he did.

furiousox

Brian Clough is rightly remembered as being a great manager but his playing career is often overlooked.
251 goals in 274 games in a career cut short by injury is a staggering statistic.

greendom

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Jimmy Greaves - hard to believe of course if you only ever saw him on ITV on a Saturday afternoon but a strikers striker when you needed to have Ironclad legs to survive the ordeal of tackles by Johnny Giles, Norman Hunter et al and the pitches were absolutely terrible. Left, (sometimes) right or head - it didn't mater.

the evidence for the case

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=docY5CRWqGc

Jimmy Greaves played for Barnet at the end of his career which is where I started attending games. Despite being a raging alcoholic whose legs had gone he was still our top scorer in the 76 -77 season despite playing in midfield. Yes it was the Southern Premier League but the guy oozed class.

Of players I saw in their prime I'd have to say Le Tissier

deaddonkey15

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Gascoigne was the last genuine world class player they had,if he had of been sent off for his challenge on Parker things could have been very different

Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Beckham, Cole. All world class players.

bucketybuck

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Beckham, Cole. All world class players.

And Ferdinand, Terry and Campbell were all world class defenders.

Such a shame that poor management wasted that generation of players.

mansize

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Gascoigne was the last genuine world class player they had,if he had of been sent off for his challenge on Parker things could have been very different

When did England play the Thunderbirds? :pac:

PropJoe10

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Scholes, Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Beckham, Cole. All world class players.

Rooney has never been world class.

If it were a poll I'd probably vote for Bobby Charlton or Alan Shearer. Gascoigne is a decent shout too.

Has to be Rooney. Best player in the best league in the world.

CSF

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Rooney has never been world class.

6 ballon d'or nominations suggests otherwise but sure we'll run with it.

mansize

CSF wrote: »

6 ballon d'or nominations suggests otherwise but sure we'll run with it.

So Michael Owen must be a class above seeing as how he won it...

Blazer

Deleted User wrote: »

Has to be Rooney. Best player in the best league in the world.

lol now you're just taking the piss. Rooney was world class for maybe the first couple of years of his career and then blew it.
You look at Rooney and Ronaldo and its easily to spot the guy who knuckled down every day to improve his skill day in day out and the lazy sod who cuts loose as soon as he's finished and goes on the piss etc.
If Rooney had even half the ambition and determination of Ronaldo he would be world class.

Knex*

jimmii wrote: »

Ah come on now. Most people probably wouldn't even have him as the best English midfielder during his career let alone the best overall of all time. World class? Without a doubt. Best English player of all time? Not even close.

Fully agree. But the same reaction should have been put forward to any Scholes suggestion.

John Barnes hit a peak that few will match.

I think, ultimately, its hard to look past the likes of Charlton and Greeves. They got it done at both club and international stage, a feat no era of English footballers since can claim.

Knex*

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Rooney has never been world class.

If it were a poll I'd probably vote for Bobby Charlton or Alan Shearer. Gascoigne is a decent shout too.

As much as I dislike the man, he most certainly has been. Was arguably the best player in the PL for a good stretch.

mansize

I don't think Rooney will be remembered in death the way Cryuff was.

I don't think he'll be considered a legend of the game outside England

MonkieSocks

Loved this goal

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0z_arXZ8nM

Knex*

mansize wrote: »

I don't think Rooney will be remembered in death the way Cryuff was.

I don't think he'll be considered a legend of the game outside England

Cryuff is perhaps one of the greatest tacticians to ever associate with the game. An outstanding managerial career to go with his legendary playing days.

While I agree with you, that's quite the level to be comparing a guy who has yet to even retire to.

jimmii

Knex. wrote: »

Fully agree. But the same reaction should have been put forward to any Scholes suggestion.

John Barnes hit a peak that few will match.

I think, ultimately, its hard to look past the likes of Charlton and Greeves. They got it done at both club and international stage, a feat no era of English footballers since can claim.

I don't know about that. Zidane & Xavi know more about playing at the top than any of us and when they say Scholes was the best midfielder of his generation then you have to think he's got to be in the running. There's a huge list of massive footballing names that go on about how good Scholes was probably more so than any other England player at least of recent times.

stephenl15

jimmii wrote: »

I don't know about that. Zidane & Xavi know more about playing at the top than any of us and when they say Scholes was the best midfielder of his generation then you have to think he's got to be in the running. There's a huge list of massive footballing names that go on about how good Scholes was probably more so than any other England player at least of recent times.

Scholes was underrated when he played and overrated since he retired. The way people go on you'd swear he was Pele. No denying he's world class and in the running but I think he's been over hyped since he retired while being underrated while he played.

If only Duncan Edwards wasn't killed in the Munich disaster this topic might've been the second best English player ever.

deaddonkey15

bucketybuck wrote: »

And Ferdinand, Terry and Campbell were all world class defenders.

Such a shame that poor management wasted that generation of players.

Can't believe I forgot them!

PropJoe10 wrote: »

Rooney has never been world class.

If it were a poll I'd probably vote for Bobby Charlton or Alan Shearer. Gascoigne is a decent shout too.

2006 to 2012 Rooney walks onto pretty much any club team on the planet.

Blazer wrote: »

lol now you're just taking the piss. Rooney was world class for maybe the first couple of years of his career and then blew it.
You look at Rooney and Ronaldo and its easily to spot the guy who knuckled down every day to improve his skill day in day out and the lazy sod who cuts loose as soon as he's finished and goes on the piss etc.
If Rooney had even half the ambition and determination of Ronaldo he would be world class.

You say that as if Rooney blew his career and is now playing Sunday league instead of being England's all time top goalscorer and a handful of goals away from being Manchester United's all time top scorer. Compare pretty much any player with Ronaldo and they will pale in comparison. Rooney was probably as good a player as Ronaldo was when they were both at United.

adox

Only speaking from the players I have seen. Robson would be the pick for me. Almost the complete footballer who dictated games. Had a bit of everything. Box to box player. Hard as nails. Great passer. Goal scorer. Totally dominated most games he played in no matter what level.

One of the true greats IMO.

SM01

Beckham?! Good jaysus no. A good player, certainly. A proud and great servant for the English national team, yes. But the media infatuation with him, his marketability and that he is generally likeable has somehow elevated him to 'brilliant' player status which he's undeserving of.

mansize

adox wrote: »

Only speaking from the players I have seen. Robson would be the pick for me. Almost the complete footballer who dictated games. Had a bit of everything. Box to box player. Hard as nails. Great passer. Goal scorer. Totally dominated most games he played in no matter what level.

One of the true greats IMO.

And got away with murder cos he was England captain...

Flint Fredstone

It's all down to personal taste really. How do you compare Shilton to Lineker? Or even Scholes to Robson.

Le Tissier was my favourite English player to watch. Proper entertainer on the field.

On a side note, I find it ridiculous that anyone in their 20's or 30's is choosing Greaves, Moore, Dean or Charlton.

mansize

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's all down to personal taste really. How do you compare Shilton to Lineker? Or even Scholes to Robson.

Le Tissier was my favourite English player to watch. Proper entertainer on the field.

On a side note, I find it ridiculous that anyone in their 20's or 30's is choosing Greaves or Charlton.

Hipster realness bonus points for could have been great

mansize

SM01 wrote: »

Beckham?! Good jaysus no. A good player, certainly. A proud and great servant for the English national team, yes. But the media infatuation with him, his marketability and that he is generally likeable has somehow elevated him to 'brilliant' player status which he's undeserving of.

He was England's best player while he was an international tbf

SM01

mansize wrote: »

He was England's best player while he was an international tbf

He'd a few 'man of the match' performances. As did Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand, Terry, Gerrard, etc. In no way does that elevate him to the exalted status that's being discussed.

Flint Fredstone

mansize wrote: »

Hipster realness bonus points for could have been great

I've no idea what you're on about, I guess it's my turn for the pointless comment on my choice.

mansize

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

I've no idea what you're on about, I guess it's my turn for the pointless comment on my choice.

I was agreeing with you... Pick a player that played before you were born etc

cj maxx

Maybe not the 'best' player, but in my mind, he contributed most when playing is gary Lineker

Blazer

Blazer wrote: »

lol now you're just taking the piss. Rooney was world class for maybe the first couple of years of his career and then blew it.
You look at Rooney and Ronaldo and its easily to spot the guy who knuckled down every day to improve his skill day in day out and the lazy sod who cuts loose as soon as he's finished and goes on the piss etc.
If Rooney had even half the ambition and determination of Ronaldo he would be world class.

Just quoting Apres Match. :pac:

Ulysses Gaze

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Gascoigne was the last genuine world class player they had,if he had of been sent off for his challenge on Parker things could have been very different

I agree with you that he was the last truly world class, potential all time great, that England has produced.

I saw him play for Lazio and there were times when he was miles above any other player on the pitch. Times as well when he was better than Roberto Baggio at his best.

If he'd gone to Utd instead of Spurs, I think things would have been different.

gosplan

Scholes is massively overrated since he retired.

Quotes mean very little unless it was totally random.

Sure Rio said that te Barca player that made the biggest difference when playing Barca was Pedro.

mansize

gosplan wrote: »

Scholes is massively overrated since he retired.

Quotes mean very little unless it was totally random.

Sure Rio said that te Barca player that made the biggest difference when playing Barca was Pedro.

Players are great at blowing smoke up each other's arses

Skylinehead

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

If he'd gone to Utd instead of Spurs, I think things would have been different.

This is often brought up, but it's not as if Fergie helped Paul McGrath in that sense.

cadete

I would only class Shilton as a truly world class player from my time, shearer had a fantastic record scholes was great at club level but an all time 11 from my lifetime only Shilton would get close,
Not sure where the love for gazza stems from, had so much potential but never got near what he could have been, wouldn't lace baggios boots imo

Ulysses Gaze

Skylinehead wrote: »

This is often brought up, but it's not as if Fergie helped Paul McGrath in that sense.

McGrath was older, had dodgy knees and was a raging alcoholic.

Gascoigne would only have been 21 and was not, at that point, an alcoholic.

MrBobbyZ

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

McGrath was older, had dodgy knees and was a raging alcoholic.

Gascoigne would only have been 21 and was not, at that point, an alcoholic.

Fergie was getting rid of the players who "never" played. He felt McGrath's recovery from injuries was too slow because of his (and others) tendency to go on benders while out injured.

Corholio

Bryan Robson. I'm glad someone mentioned him earlier along with the usual ones like Gazza, Rooney etc. He was absolutely world class, one of the best England players I've ever watched and very, very often underrated in discussions like this. I think it's perhaps a mixture of it being a while ago and maybe his less than stellar managerial career. He'd be worth an absolute fortune in todays market.

greendom

Corholio wrote: »

Bryan Robson. I'm glad someone mentioned him earlier along with the usual ones like Gazza, Rooney etc. He was absolutely world class, one of the best England players I've ever watched and very, very often underrated in discussions like this. I think it's perhaps a mixture of it being a while ago and maybe his less than stellar managerial career. He'd be worth an absolute fortune in todays market.

His injury record was probably a contributory factor too. He was the complete midfielder when fit. The term box to box was made for him.

Kerrydude1981

Roy Race