Greatest ever English player?

Ulysses Gaze

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Roy Race

10 First Division Titles, 10 FA Cups, 4 European Cups, 2 UEFA Cups, 4 Cup Winners Cups

We have a winner

Kerrydude1981

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

10 First Division Titles, 10 FA Cups, 4 European Cups, 2 UEFA Cups, 4 Cup Winners Cups

We have a winner

Also survived an earthquake

Ulysses Gaze

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Also survived an earthquake

And a terrorist attack in Basran!

Legend.

StringerBell

I assume someone has already mentioned Bobby Charlton, that should have ended the debate I would have thought.

/

jaykay74

StringerBell wrote:

I assume someone has already mentioned Bobby Charlton, that should have ended the debate I would have thought.

No question

UrbanFret

Yep. Charlton, who was 10 times the player scholes ever was. Bobby Moore the best of the rest. Jesus.... Scholes!

Flint Fredstone

UrbanFret wrote: »

Yep. Charlton, who was 10 times the player scholes ever was. Bobby Moore the best of the rest. Jesus.... Scholes!

It's hard to compare from different eras. Who knows how Charlton would have got on in today's game?

galwaylad14

Can only talk about the modern era but of what I've seen Alan Shearer by a mile. Just look at that goals record.

SM01

SM01 wrote: »

Beckham?! Good jaysus no. A good player, certainly. A proud and great servant for the English national team, yes. But the media infatuation with him, his marketability and that he is generally likeable has somehow elevated him to 'brilliant' player status which he's undeserving of.

An Adman's Glenn Hoddle :pac:

furiousox

Different eras I know, but Shearer's goal to game ratio is 0.667.
Brian Clough's is 0.916 which is the highest ratio of any player to score over 200 goals in the English leagues.

Jimbob1977

Bobby Moore

Bobby Charlton

Jimmy Greaves

Bryan Robson

Glenn Hoddle

Gary Lineker

Paul Gascoigne

David Beckham

Alan Shearer

Tony Adams

Wayne Rooney

Paul Scholes (but he went into self-imposed international retirement)

Dirty Dingus McGee

furiousox wrote: »

Different eras I know, but Shearer's goal to game ratio is 0.667.
Brian Clough's is 0.916 which is the highest ratio of any player to score over 200 goals in the English leagues.

Clough played most (if not all )of his career outside the top flight so that has to be taken into consideration when comparing him to others.

furiousox

furiousox wrote: »

Different eras I know, but Shearer's goal to game ratio is 0.667.
Brian Clough's is 0.916 which is the highest ratio of any player to score over 200 goals in the English leagues.

And different divisions.

Did Clough play his entire career in the old Second Division, and Shearer spend his entire career in the top division?

mansize

Why hasn't everyone just agreed with me on Gazza??? Lol 😜

StringerBell

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's hard to compare from different eras. Who knows how Charlton would have got on in today's game?

Very hard alright, but going off what the oul lads tell me from watching him play, from seeing (limited) games here and there from him myself and highlights etc, his record, his accomplishments and his longevity, not to mention the level of respect shown to him by anybody in the world of football make a good case for him.

Ulysses Gaze

Flint Fredstone wrote: »

It's hard to compare from different eras. Who knows how Charlton would have got on in today's game?

On pitches like billiard tables, lighter balls than he played with back then and more protection from referees?

I think he would have got on more than fine.

GT_TDI_150

Depends on why you ask really...

Are BBC Sports or SKY SPORTS doing a poll that need spoiling? Then Roy Keane!

When you say greatest ever are you talking domestic comps or as an international?

Anyway, from players i remember ... Sherringham and shearer.

Those ive seen clips of greaves and charlton

And as for brilliant but underrated ... Peter Beardsley

Paully D

He's certainly not the greatest, but to throw another name out there who I don't think has been mentioned - Ashley Cole.

Arguably the best left back on the planet in his prime IMO, he won numerous leagues and cups with Arsenal and Chelsea along with a Champions League. In addition, he won over 100 caps for England and many times was the only English player who should have left a major tournament with his head held high due to his performances.

As I said, I wouldn't put him down as the greatest, but he was certainly deserving of that infamous "world class" title and is very often overlooked.

mansize

I think Ashley was mentioned earlier

Blue giant

I honestly think Wayne Rooney is being overlooked far too easily here. England and soon to be Manchester United all time leading goal scorer. Yes he's scored an awful lot of goals against the lesser teams but someone has to score them. People will say he hasn't performed at any major tournament for England but he's probably the last England player to have any major kind of impact on a tournament in Euro 2004. Name any English player who actually has played well for them?

Could he have been a better footballer? Possibly. Could he have taken better care of himself? Almost definitely. Even still he's been England's best player for the best part of a decade and really should be in the running for this. Maybe not the greatest ever but certainly deserves to be up there.

Ulysses Gaze

Paully D wrote: »

He's certainly not the greatest, but to throw another name out there who I don't think has been mentioned - Ashley Cole.

Arguably the best left back on the planet in his prime IMO, he won numerous leagues and cups with Arsenal and Chelsea along with a Champions League. In addition, he won over 100 caps for England and many times was the only English player who should have left a major tournament with his head held high due to his performances.

As I said, I wouldn't put him down as the greatest, but he was certainly deserving of that infamous "world class" title and is very often overlooked.

I think people just don't like him and allow his personality to cloud their judgement.

Left Back is also not a glamour position, normally. Unless you have a Roberto Carlos playing there.

I'd say only Maldini would beat him as far as Left Backs go in the last 20 years?

Hannibal

Knex. wrote: »

Fully agree. But the same reaction should have been put forward to any Scholes suggestion.

John Barnes hit a peak that few will match.

I think, ultimately, its hard to look past the likes of Charlton and Greeves. They got it done at both club and international stage, a feat no era of English footballers since can claim.

that pretty much sums up John Barnes.

I this thread the best English player or the best England player though?

I'm a Liverpool fan so I might be biased but looking the sheer talent Gerrard and Fowler had in a red shirt I always had the impression that they never gave more than 90% to England. Jamie Carragher pretty much summed up the mentality in his book after missing a penalty for England by saying at least it wasn't for Liverpool.

Rooney is probably Englands best player for the past number of years. England tried to fit Gerrard, Scholes and Lampard into the same team and stifled Gerrard and Scholes so they never reached their potential even though they were both better players. Rafa Benitez is the only manager to build a team around Gerrard and he was top 10 in the world for 5 or 6 years.

For me Fowler was head and shoulders above Owen. Owen seemed to hold back for club and give England his all and Fowler the opposite. Fowler was unlucky breaking through as he had Shearer, Sheringham, Wright, Cole, Ferdinand all ahead of him and he never got the chance. Owen came onto the scene four years later when they were past it so he got his chance easy. I would also be of the opinion that the three seasons Fowler had before wrecking his knee was comfortably as good as Rooney at his peak.

I'm using Rooney as a reference because he has been Englands main star for ten years and their national teams focal point but also I'm of the opinion that Gerrard, Scholes and Fowler at their peaks were better than Rooney at his peak.

I've never seen more than clips of Charlton, Greaves, Moore, Hunt, Matthews and Finney so I won't cast an opinion on historical names.

One name missing from this thread is Kevin Keegan. A double Ballor D'or winner, PFA and FWA player of the year also. You won't get better accolades than that from an Englishman. So maybe on that I'll say Gerrard is the best English players I've seen; Rooney is the best England player but judging by personal accolades Keegan has to be considered for the best.

SEPT 23 1989

Rooney is a better player than Gascoigne??

You forget how young some of these posters are on this site

recylingbin

Bill shankley said tom Finney was the best player he ever saw. So, I'll say him as he knew more about football than me and some of the posters here

Blazer

[QUOTE=GT_TDI_150;99184703

And as for brilliant but underrated ... Peter Beardsley[/QUOTE]

loved Beardsley..absolutely fantastic player and Lineker I think paid him the ultimate complement in that he wouldn't have scored half his international goals without Beardsley..

StringerBell

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Rooney is a better player than Gascoigne??

You forget how young some of these posters are on this site

Both extremely naturally gifted footballers, you would be hard pressed to make a good case for Gascoigne having made more of his talents then Rooney though.

I think Gazza shades it alright on pure natural ability, but "Wazza" has certainly had the better career, and to rate him as the better player of the two is not outrageous in all honesty.

If it was a question of the most naturally gifted English footballer people like Joe Cole would be getting in to the discussion when they obviously wouldn't have a prayer in terms of being the actual greatest English player.

StringerBell

recylingbin wrote: »

Bill shankley said tom Finney was the best player he ever saw. So, I'll say him as he knew more about football than me and some of the posters here

Quite an apt username.

bmcc10

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I think people just don't like him and allow his personality to cloud their judgement.

Left Back is also not a glamour position, normally. Unless you have a Roberto Carlos playing there.

I'd say only Maldini would beat him as far as Left Backs go in the last 20 years?

I'd agree with this never liked him but he was unreal and so consistent.

Lovely Bloke

in my lifetime

Gazza, then Scholes.

Dempsey

Rooney is nowhere near the greatest english player. His career longevity makes his wikipedia stats look good but there is alot of players with better claims to the claim. He's completely burned out before he hit 30 aswell.

Moore & Charlton would be in a league of their own and then a big bracket of alot of good players.

shamrock55

Tbh,I don't think England have ever really had a stand out player,Lineker in 86 maybe,alot of super players for their clubs never really did it for england

Gascoigne was superb. Such a pity his career was blighted by other things

MrBobbyZ

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I think people just don't like him and allow his personality to cloud their judgement.

Left Back is also not a glamour position, normally. Unless you have a Roberto Carlos playing there.

I'd say only Maldini would beat him as far as Left Backs go in the last 20 years?

I'd put Denis Irwin a shade ahead of Cole. 2 footed, scored goals, set pieces and an unbelievable level of consistency.

MrBobbyZ

Scholes or Robson are the best that I've seen. Gazza had more talent but never realised it fully.

Blazer

MrBobbyZ wrote: »

I'd put Denis Irwin a shade ahead of Cole. 2 footed, scored goals, set pieces and an unbelievable level of consistency.

Irwin is Irish though

Iused2likebusts

I'd have Ashley Cole as the best English player since the turn of the century and the most impressive of the so called golden generation. Shearer, Barnes and Robson the best in my lifetime.
Rooney was unreal as a teenager but never really got much better. Of course he has had a great career but I think the media have wanted an English superstar and he fitted the bill but he never quite got there. He hasn't had a consistent season since the year before rvp signed for utd which must be 3 or 4 seasons at this stage.

BBDBB

Ashley Cole , he was good, but he was no Kenny Sansom

deaddonkey15

Paully D wrote: »

He's certainly not the greatest, but to throw another name out there who I don't think has been mentioned - Ashley Cole.

Arguably the best left back on the planet in his prime IMO, he won numerous leagues and cups with Arsenal and Chelsea along with a Champions League. In addition, he won over 100 caps for England and many times was the only English player who should have left a major tournament with his head held high due to his performances.

As I said, I wouldn't put him down as the greatest, but he was certainly deserving of that infamous "world class" title and is very often overlooked.

I reckon England would have gotten out of their world cup group in 2014 if they had brought him and Terry, although Terry had already announced his retirement.

Dempsey wrote: »

Rooney is nowhere near the greatest english player. His career longevity makes his wikipedia stats look good but there is alot of players with better claims to the claim. He's completely burned out before he hit 30 aswell.

Moore & Charlton would be in a league of their own and then a big bracket of alot of good players.

Contradicting yourself a bit there.

Korat

Tofiq Bahramov is the real unsung hero of the English national football team.

keeponhurling

Cole was very good indeed, but full backs generally tend to be solid rather than spectacular.

England hasn't had any player perform consistently the them really, who was a real star.
Maybe the closest in last 20 yeas was Rooney.

Before that Owen, Lineker, Beckham, Platt all performed consistently well for England, coincidentally(?) all played outside England. Although at the time there was more money outside England.
Maybe Tony Adams.

Even Shearer, who was a phenomenal player, went a long time without scoring for England, despite his great club performances.

garra

mansize wrote: »

Shearer was so bland though

Shearer is only bland as a pundit, he was anything but as a player.

chicorytip

Frank Worthington had the potential to be England's greatest striker but frittered away his talent.

CSF

Eric Dier.

eigrod

Moore, Charlton & Keegan for me. Didn't see Moore & Charlton, but no way they were winning the World Cup without those 2. Keegan the best since that World Cup winning team, imo.

Kirby

garra wrote: »

Shearer is only bland as a pundit, he was anything but as a player.

He was bland as a player too. He did the same non celebration after every goal. :P

ctrl-alt-delete

Kirby wrote: »

He was bland as a player too. He did the same non celebration after every goal. :P

In fairness to him the odd time he raised both hands!

Billy86

Tom Finney also deserves mention - many had him as the better winger than Matthews, and unlike Matthews he could play anywhere across the front line. He missed the second half of a season through injury if I recall, and Preston went from about 3rd to relegation - and got re-promoted when he was back healthy.

He was offered 10 times what he was earning in England to move to Italy, and turned it down. Also, he operated as the clubs local handyman (or plumber or electrician, not definite which off the top of my head, mind!). Folksy stuff sure, but still nice... so to end on something stronger. Stanley Matthews is (rightly) revered, and scored 30 goals over a 25+ year career from the wing, in the old systems where wide players were rarely expected to score. Finney on the other hand did not make his debut until 24 years of age because of the war and only played a little over half the games of Matthews.

Finney's goal total at Preston? 210.

Billy86

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Gascoigne was the last genuine world class player they had,if he had of been sent off for his challenge on Parker things could have been very different

Scholes, Ferdinand and Lampard.

Some could say Gerrard or Rooney too, but the former never really put it all together (he had more potential than even Gazza I think, way back when) and the latter is both lazy and overrated. And fat.

theoneeyedman

Roy Race!
/thread

deaddonkey15

Billy86 wrote: »

Scholes, Ferdinand and Lampard.

Some could say Gerrard or Rooney too, but the former never really put it all together (he had more potential than even Gazza I think, way back when) and the latter is both lazy and overrated. And fat.

Childish. How is he lazy exactly?