Greatest ever English player?

Billy86

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Rooney was probably as good a player as Ronaldo was when they were both at United.

Billy86

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Childish. How is he lazy exactly?

Ex staff have come out and said he was always gym shy and not willing to put in the extra work. And it showed, especially as his career moved on. Anyone who says they can't see the detrimental effects it has had on his career over the past several seasons are deluding themselves. And as a result, yes he has often been fat and out of shape in his career.

mansize

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

In fairness to him the odd time he raised both hands!

Fillet-o-fish

deaddonkey15

Billy86 wrote: »

Ex staff have come out and said he was always gym shy and not willing to put in the extra work. And it showed, especially as his career moved on. Anyone who says they can't see the detrimental effects it has had on his career over the past several seasons are deluding themselves. And as a result, yes he has often been fat and out of shape in his career.

Who are these ex staff?

thebaz

Maybe Gazza , when he played , England played , was key to all recent good England performances - Italia '90 , Euro '96 - he was the first real modern Superstar, paving the way for the over-payed EPL Superstars of today - how sad his life has hit such lows , rolled out on a charity speaker circuit when sober and sometimes not, while many lesser players earning so much, too much.
Glen Hoddle was a bit special , Rooney early days was great , remember when he arrived at Everton as a 16 year old - but never really did it at major tournament and he never really peaked , he's gone stale. So Gazza or Glen for me.

Billy86

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

On pitches like billiard tables, lighter balls than he played with back then and more protection from referees?

I think he would have got on more than fine.

He probably is the best and most obvious answer for the thread, but if we directly transplanted from the 1960s in a time machine? He'd never be able to keep up with the pace and athleticism.

But... different eras and all that, so it's all kind of moot. A bit like when someone says "Messi/Ronaldo would last a half in the 1960s".

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

I think people just don't like him and allow his personality to cloud their judgement.

Left Back is also not a glamour position, normally. Unless you have a Roberto Carlos playing there.

I'd say only Maldini would beat him as far as Left Backs go in the last 20 years?

Hard to say if Cole or Carlos were better because their remits were so different, but I would put Lahm (when at LB) a little ahead of Cole. Then again I'd put Lahm as a top 5-10 FB of all time, and Cole not too far outside. Can't think of any better LBs otherwise the last 20 years, and only Cafu, Thuram and
Zanetti would likely match up with him even with RBs included.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=99180447

thebaz

I forgot Bryan Robson , great competitor , i loved his will to win attitude, tried to model my faltering career on him

astonaidan

Of all the English players in my time that drove fear into teams its Shearer. English players tend to be over hyped actually read Rooney was as good as Ronaldo at United. Ashley Cole is the best of recent times, his attitude shouldnt get in the way of his selection

Blazer

keeponhurling wrote: »

Even Shearer, who was a phenomenal player, went a long time without scoring for England, despite his great club performances.

That was really only in friendlies though..when it came to the real competitions i.e. Euro 96 he finished top scorer with 5 goals ..2 ahead of his nearest rival.

deaddonkey15

astonaidan wrote: »

Of all the English players in my time that drove fear into teams its Shearer. English players tend to be over hyped actually read Rooney was as good as Ronaldo at United. Ashley Cole is the best of recent times, his attitude shouldnt get in the way of his selection

There wasn't much between them when they were both at the club. Check out highlights of United's seasons around 2007 2008. Both were absolutely fantastic players. Rooney was a better player in his first season or two at United than Ronaldo was when he started there.

gosplan

I always think in threads like these that Gazza, Best, Cantona etc maybe can't be included.

Like looking at the attributes for great players, surely continued desire to play at the top level and ability to sustain greatness is pretty important.

I may be wrong and it seems unfair to be so hard on Gazza who has his own demons but they held him back, no?

I always think of Adriano at Inter too. Could have been an all time great.

holy guacamole

In my lifetime I would say Bryan Robson, averaged almost a goal every three games for the national side but contributed so much more than just goals. If not for his injury in the '86 WC that English side would have run the Argentinians even closer than they did.

His club exploits speak for themselves, like Gerrard with Liverpool he completely carried United through the eighties and anything they achieved during that era can almost solely be attributed to him.

If forced to pick someone from history would probably go with Bobby Moore, in an age when most defenders were rugged miscreants he must have been a joy to watch.

Chancer3001

Shearer

Lampard

Terry

Scholes in his later years

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Hard to say if Cole or Carlos were better because their remits were so different, but I would put Lahm (when at LB) a little ahead of Cole. Then again I'd put Lahm as a top 5-10 FB of all time, and Cole not too far outside. Can't think of any better LBs otherwise the last 20 years, and only Cafu, Thuram and
Zanetti would likely match up with him even with RBs included

Lizarazu had a fine career.

Billy86

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Lizarazu had a fine career.

I'd put the guys mentioned a shade ahead of him, but lizarazu was pure class. Love watching fbs with so much 'culture' (bit of a want phrase but anyway...) to their game, which is part of why I rank Lahm so highly.

gosplan

Billy86 wrote: »

Then again I'd put Lahm as a top 5-10 FB of all time, and Cole not too far outside. Can't think of any better LBs otherwise the last 20 years, and only Cafu, Thuram and
Zanetti would likely match up with him even with RBs included.

Billy86

That awkward moment when you realise you've left out easily the best ever.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

That awkward moment when you realise you've left out easily the best ever.

In fairness, I overlooked him too...and I was almost smug about bringing up good ol' Bixente!

Billy86

Deleted User wrote: »

In fairness, I overlooked him too...and I was almost smug about bringing up good ol' Bixente!

Good thing you didn't go straight for the Candela (not quite the same class, but very underrated)!

Dirty Dingus McGee

I assume the reason Maldini wasn't brought up is because it's just taken as a given that he was the best left back of living memory and therefore the argument is who is the next best left back.

Dirty Dingus McGee

Billy86 wrote: »

Good thing you didn't go straight for the Candela (not quite the same class, but very underrated)!

Candela was quality.Desperately unlucky that he was around when Lizarazu was.

Willy Sagnol was equally unlucky that he had Thuram in his way for a long time.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

I assume the reason Maldini wasn't brought up is because it's just taken as a given that he was the best left back of living memory and therefore the argument is who is the next best left back.

It's probably got to be the most hands down, unquestionable 'best ever' position there is - well, probably with Beckenbauer at CB. Trying to think if there are any others as obvious?

Donnielighto

Billy86 wrote: »

It's probably got to be the most hands down, unquestionable 'best ever' position there is - well, probably with Beckenbauer at CB. Trying to think if there are any others as obvious?

Lev yashin in goals?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Billy86 wrote: »

It's probably got to be the most hands down, unquestionable 'best ever' position there is - well, probably with Beckenbauer at CB. Trying to think if there are any others as obvious?

Cafu at right back I'd argue.

He changed the game as since him all full backs seem to be expected to be great going forward. Cafu happened to be top class defensively as well which unfortunately a lot of full backs seem to have forgotten about that aspect of their job.

Billy86

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Cafu at right back I'd argue.

He changed the game as since him all full backs seem to be expected to be great going forward. Cafu happened to be top class defensively as well which unfortunately a lot of full backs seem to have forgotten about that aspect of their job.

Even with Cafu there are arguments about Djalma Santos, Vogts, Zanetti, Thuram and Carlos Alberto. I would put Cafu as #1 but there are arguments to be made for others. Against Maldini though, even the likes of Nilton Santos, Marzolini, Breitner, Facchetti, Schnellinger and Lahm simply just can't compete over at LB.

The emphasis for attacking FBs was there before Cafu though, Brehme being an example of one who was active when Cafu was very young - it's been a key part of most Brazilian teams especially, as the initial guys to really push that and invent/reinvent the position were Nilton & Djalma Santos (no relation) back in the 50s around the same time Roger Byrne was doing similar for Man Utd in the Busby Babes.

Billy86

Billy86 wrote: »

Good thing you didn't go straight for the Candela (not quite the same class, but very underrated)!

If you hadn't imposed the time limit I'd have put up an argument for Tony Dorigo in the very underestimated category. Seriously. He was just...effortlessly graceful, and I always like elegance and poise in a player.

As for the greatest FB argument, I'd have Cafu at his best ahead of Maldini at his best. But not much in it either way.

Edit - Brehme crossed my mind too, as you mention him in your last post.

liam7831

Steve Bruce

Ulysses Gaze

Deleted User wrote: »

If you hadn't imposed the time limit I'd have put up an argument for Tony Dorigo in the very underestimated category. Seriously. He was just...effortlessly graceful, and I always like elegance and poise in a player.

As for the greatest FB argument, I'd have Cafu at his best ahead of Maldini at his best. But not much in it either way.

Edit - Brehme crossed my mind too, as you mention him in your last post.

Don't forget Ruud Krol either....

Knex*

liam7831 wrote: »

Steve Bruce

"has a big fat head.."

earlytobed

Donnielighto wrote: »

Lev yashin in goals?

not english

earlytobed

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

Cafu at right back I'd argue.

He changed the game as since him all full backs seem to be expected to be great going forward. Cafu happened to be top class defensively as well which unfortunately a lot of full backs seem to have forgotten about that aspect of their job.

not english

earlytobed

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Don't forget Ruud Krol either....

not english

acquiescefc

DEH9