Has Limerick always been deprived ?

goochy

Big fan of limerick and have been visiting regularly for past 20 years . When I first visited 20 years ago - I was impressed by the urban renewal taking place.

However , I am still aware that there has been gang trouble over the years and also limericks council estates must be the worst in country.

It got me thinking , has Limerick always been a city of great contrasts or was there a time when it was a thriving place and reasonably prosperous ?

if so what do people think went wrong to make it a place which while I love , theres a lot of poverty around and dereliction. - note I am not from cork originally !!

Silentcorner

goochy wrote: »

Big fan of limerick and have been visiting regularly for past 20 years . When I first visited 20 years ago - I was impressed by the urban renewal taking place.

However , I am still aware that there has been gang trouble over the years and also limericks council estates must be the worst in country.

It got me thinking , has Limerick always been a city of great contrasts or was there a time when it was a thriving place and reasonably prosperous ?

if so what do people think went wrong to make it a place which while I love , theres a lot of poverty around and dereliction. - note I am not from cork originally !!

How are getting on with Paul Williams latest book?

Cities that define themselves by how "wealthy" they are tend to be full of pretentious knobs....

Why should anyone care where you are from or not from...

This thread is pointless....

Tefral

I think a lot of issues limerick have stem back to bad planning.

You mention council estates, take Moyross for example, they pushed aload of housing in one area with one way in and out. There's no reason to go to Moyross unless you live there. It should have been made a place you pass through to go to somewhere like work etc.

The city centre has been deprived due to the fact the Limerick County Council were offering cheaper rates, bigger land areas etc than the City Council so the shopping centres were built there. The land masses were turned over to housing in the county also, so people lived near these shopping centres, they majority of people in limerick work outside of the city centre also in places like the Ballysimon road, Shannon etc

Dell leaving was a massive blow to the city, it provided low skilled employment to thousands and the secondary business that fed dell also shut down like Banta etc.

Limerick is a working class city, theres no IFSC here for example. Many people i know don't have a 3rd level education, many people come here for one but leave for Dublin etc afterward. The upshot is there is very little disposable income in family's here and you can see that when you walk around the streets with all the euro shops etc.

The city centre needs people to be living in it again, there should be more apartment complexes actually within a 10 min walking distance of O'Connell Street, when you bring people in they will spend in the city and bring life back into it. After 6pm most evenings the city centre is a ghost town.

We don't really have a gangland problem anymore, there is worse going on around the country such as Dublin for example (Skewed because of population i know) Waterford and Monaghan, Tipperary and Cork are all way higher in sexual offences for example.

Around 2003 -2005 is when Limerick would have been at its most prosperous, it was definitely hit incredibly hard by the recession, but there is a change happening at the moment. There are more high end jobs coming to Limerick, Northern Trust are hiring like mad, Regeneron are expanding, Genworth built a 10,000m2 facility in Shannon and put loads of staff in. I am working on the Ardmore Studios job at the moment and you would not believe what is going to come out of that when it gets up and going. The merger of the two councils so they have one agenda is definitely helping

goochy

Thanks an intelligent and informative response - at least not everyone has a chip on their should.

Also a place having a lot of poverty can never be seen as a positive - its not about being wealthy.

Silentcorner

goochy wrote: »

Thanks an intelligent and informative response - at least not everyone has a chip on their should.

Also a place having a lot of poverty can never be seen as a positive - its not about being wealthy.

But that is just it, it is...pretentiousness means just that...in order to feel good pretentious people tend to separate themselves from those less well off...and take a thinly veiled enjoyment or even morbid fascination of those people/places...

This is reflected in our National approach to crime reporting, "Gangland Crime" is glorified and more often than not completely amplified, whereas White Collar crime is brushed under a carpet, which is why we have so much of it...

In two of our largest cities we have a ridiculously pretentious wealth line that divides both cities...this is a very real problem that no one talks about...and it is a uniquely Irish problem...

The wealth divide has always caused issues in this city as it does in every city where there is a significant wealth divide but of all cities this city has a much more progressive attitude to wealth and those less well off... it is much more inclusive of people from all backrounds...

For that we are known as a "working class" city, for which no one takes offense...because no one really cares about that particular label...head to the Southside neighbourhoods of Cork and Dublin and claim that they are working class areas and see what happens...

The problems outlined by Cronin J exist in all Irish cities, bad planning poor Government etc, because we all live in a country that has a highly Centralised system of Government therefore it doesn't matter who we elect we have no control over things like :

Planning (including local authority estates)
Local Government infrastructure
The Welfare State and The Legal Sector are the biggest drivers of poverty, social deprivation etc

All the above have had an impact on Limerick, and everywhere else...but Irish people tend to fixate themselves in this city...

I'll say it again, "having a chip on the shoulder" is a meaningless cliche...

Red King

Abysmal planning and representation has played a HUGE role in Limerick not reaching its full potential.

And people keep voting back in the likes of O'Dea.

So much of it is our own fault too.

dave 27

I think people would be surprised to hear but I wouldn't be surprised if Limerick people had one of the highest rates of disposable income per head of population. House prices are dirt cheap but average income is around the 40k mark, there was a big thing on the paper saying how limerick was actually the most affordable place to live in Western Europe so if you had any bit of a decent paying job youd have a lot more disposable income that the likes of Dublin or cork

Totally Tropical

goochy wrote: »

Big fan of limerick and have been visiting regularly for past 20 years . When I first visited 20 years ago - I was impressed by the urban renewal taking place.

However , I am still aware that there has been gang trouble over the years and also limericks council estates must be the worst in country.

It got me thinking , has Limerick always been a city of great contrasts or was there a time when it was a thriving place and reasonably prosperous ?

if so what do people think went wrong to make it a place which while I love , theres a lot of poverty around and dereliction. - note I am not from cork originally !!

Limerick is a great city with great people.I've never had any trouble on my numerous visits there.Cork and Dublin have run down parts in the city centre and suburbs as well.You sound like a person who never set one foot in Limerick in his/her life.You have good and bad everywhere.

James Bond Junior

dave 27 wrote: »

I think people would be surprised to hear but I wouldn't be surprised if Limerick people had one of the highest rates of disposable income per head of population. House prices are dirt cheap but average income is around the 40k mark, there was a big thing on the paper saying how limerick was actually the most affordable place to live in Western Europe so if you had any bit of a decent paying job youd have a lot more disposable income that the likes of Dublin or cork

I came to college in Limerick and never left. In fact I live within a stones throw of my alma mater in my own home which I bought alone. My peers with whom I graduated are scattered around the country but most are in Dublin. We all work the same job (public service) and as a result are all paid a standard and decent salary. But I am far better off than they are as a result of staying in Limerick. All of my classmates living in Dublin are paying handsomely more than the price of my mortgage for a room in a shared house. None of them can envisage owning their own homes on our salaries at present. I have a long commute every day but that is because I chose to live in the city and work in the county. My peers spend hours every day travelling a fraction of the distance I do, battling the m50, the m7, traffic, traffic and more traffic. I am on the motorway in 4 minutes and it's a straight run. The only traffic I encounter is being stuck behind the bin lorry in Adare the odd morning or the traffic I pass heading into the city. To say I have it lucky because I chose to stay in Limerick is an understatement. Limerick has everything pretty much that Dublin or cork has to offer but a reasonably cheap cost of living and very little traffic issues.
People ask me is Limerick rough and my reply is always the same; In my ten years in Limerick I've seen two fights outside a nightclub/pub and both of those were involving my friends whom were visiting from other counties. When I go back to my home place up the country I am guaranteed to see some sort of spat outside the chipper at kicking out time, so no Limerick is not rough. I count my lucky stars I live in limerick.

dave 27

Good man yourself I couldn't have put it better myself.

DEFTLEFTHAND

I was also in college in Limerick and loved it. Always found it a pleasant place and never ran into any trouble. I'd love to live there again at some point.

In regards to the social issues that do exist I'd agree with one of the above posters about poor planning. Those estates which were built in the 70s (?) became high unemployment ghettos. Crime was always going to be a byproduct of that.

goochy

Totally tropical as said I am a fan of the place and I visit a few times a year so know it very well. It is a great place and the people are great but you are naive if you u cant see that there's more grinding poverty and also dereliction than other Irish cities.

zulutango

I'm very lucky in that my job is in the city centre. I live around the corner from it in a renovated Georgian building, and my rent is about the same as what I paid for a tiny little room on the outskirts of Dublin when I was based there a few years ago. My commute now is about 1 minute (walking). In Dublin it was about an hour by bike and train, and would have been longer by car. I have quite a few active interests so my time is important to me, and I'd never be able to to fulfil these if I was commuting for any length of time. There's a lot more happening in the city centre than many people realise too. In a way you can only really discover it properly if you live in it and just hang out a lot. So many events are organised by word of mouth.

One of the downsides is that many of the people I know and hang out with are locked into their suburban lives and they aren't ready to take the leap and live in the city centre. But little by little that's changing. Often it's just about opening their eyes to the possibilities.

Another great reason to live in Limerick City is the access to the west and southwest coast. You can be on the West Coast of Clare in an hour, and the best parts of Kerry in less than 2 hours.

We're really blessed to live in Limerick, in my opinion. We have a lifestyle that many people in the country either can't afford or don't have time for.

I agree with the opening poster that there is a lot of poverty and dereliction. Without going into too much detail most of this is due to having three local authorities pulling against each other for so long. Now there's just two. Another reason is that we have a fairly low calibre of senior management in the city, so even though the structures are somewhat fixed (and will take time to bed in), we definitely need higher qualified and more ambitious and creative senior management.

Silentcorner

zulutango wrote: »

I'm very lucky in that my job is in the city centre. I live around the corner from it in a renovated Georgian building, and my rent is about the same as what I paid for a tiny little room on the outskirts of Dublin when I was based there a few years ago. My commute now is about 1 minute (walking). In Dublin it was about an hour by bike and train, and would have been longer by car. I have quite a few active interests so my time is important to me, and I'd never be able to to fulfil these if I was commuting for any length of time. There's a lot more happening in the city centre than many people realise too. In a way you can only really discover it properly if you live in it and just hang out a lot. So many events are organised by word of mouth.

One of the downsides is that many of the people I know and hang out with are locked into their suburban lives and they aren't ready to take the leap and live in the city centre. But little by little that's changing. Often it's just about opening their eyes to the possibilities.

Another great reason to live in Limerick City is the access to the west and southwest coast. You can be on the West Coast of Clare in an hour, and the best parts of Kerry in less than 2 hours.

We're really blessed to live in Limerick, in my opinion. We have a lifestyle that many people in the country either can't afford or don't have time for.

I agree with the opening poster that there is a lot of poverty and dereliction. Without going into too much detail most of this is due to having three local authorities pulling against each other for so long. Now there's just two. Another reason is that we have a fairly low calibre of senior management in the city, so even though the structures are somewhat fixed (and will take time to bed in), we definitely need higher qualified and more ambitious and creative senior management.[/QUOTE]

Nail on the head....we need accountability for a start...

I read Des O'Malleys book, Conduct Unbecoming, in it two things stood out.

1 He maintains he was vehemently against the City Manager who was going ahead with building Moyross, because at this stage there were problems arising in Southill, plus the same program of social housing was proving to be a disaster in Dublin -clearly he was ignored.

2 He, along with the City Manager applied to the Dept of Environment for a boundary extension, which is one of the primary reasons the city centre is in the state it is in, into Co Limerick, which even at that stage was badly needed.- clearly he was ignored.

Des O'Malley was one of the most influential politicians in this state at the time, this was back in the 70s, over 40 years ago!!

The roots of Limericks issues today were sown back then by faceless, highly paid, unelected bureaucrats most of whom probably never set foot in Limerick.

That being said, I think calling the city centre "deprived" or suffering from "grinding poverty" is simply hyperbole, I suspect the OP is buying into the tabloid version of Limerick.

goochy

I visit limerick regularly and not just the obvious places and while I love the place I am amazed at how bad certain places are. I think settled travellers are big part of problem . I live in cork but I am not from there . Aside from knocknaheeny you don't see places any where near as bad as in limerick even dublins council areas improved in Celtic tiger years. There are plenty of nice places in limerick but it seems eyesores are always just around the corner . You don't see it in cork Galway or Waterford but you do in dublin.

zulutango

goochy wrote: »

I visit limerick regularly and not just the obvious places and while I love the place I am amazed at how bad certain places are. I think settled travellers are big part of problem . I live in cork but I am not from there . Aside from knocknaheeny you don't see places any where near as bad as in limerick even dublins council areas improved in Celtic tiger years. There are plenty of nice places in limerick but it seems eyesores are always just around the corner . You don't see it in cork Galway or Waterford but you do in dublin.

No, I don't think it's to do with settled travellers really. I don't think Limerick would have more than anywhere else. For the reasons mentioned elsewhere there's been a general exodus of middle classes from the city over the last 40 years, and the student demographic in the centre is weak enough, unlike other Irish cities. In fact, the very centre, where most people used to live now only houses about 3% of the population and that has a huge knock on effect on everything else.

Lavinia

I lived in Limerick for few years and I am missing the place since. Never had any troubles while there, loved the University area, the city centre with Shannon, proximity of everything nature-wise and in that sense beauty-wise South and North... I think the city has a great atmosphere in it with all the old churches and buildings around, kind of unique. haven't been there a while but may visit just to see how it is nowadays, would love it.

mynameis905

Lavinia wrote: »

I lived in Limerick for few years and I am missing the place since. Never had any troubles while there, loved the University area, the city centre with Shannon, proximity of everything nature-wise and in that sense beauty-wise South and North... I think the city has a great atmosphere in it with all the old churches and buildings around, kind of unique. haven't been there a while but may visit just to see how it is nowadays, would love it.

Nature and beauty? Are we still talking about Limerick?

BoatMad

I went to college in Limerick in the late seventies and early 80s and have been passing through it ever since. I think it has a most unfair reputation. personally I would out it down to the poor planning in the 70-80s, that led to a very poor city centre, i.e., the parts that " visitors " see. Whereas other cities tended to maintain a better grip on its centre, ( The same is true of O'donnell st).

Today with far more effort concentrated on improving the city centre, it now " looks" much better then it did in its past

Its nothing to do with working class or wealthy , dublin Cork and Limerick all have wealthy and not so wealthy areas, all have large issues with poorly planned suburban sprawl and social depravation

I never saw limerick as better or worse then anywhere else

Lavinia

mynameis905 wrote: »

Nature and beauty? Are we still talking about Limerick?

I said proximity - it being eg rings of Kerry and Beara on south, Spanish point, Cliffs of Moher, Galway etc on North..

but Limerick is beautiful for me also as I wrote above..

stefanovich

mynameis905 wrote: »

Nature and beauty? Are we still talking about Limerick?

What about the big ****ing river flowing right through it? The mountains in the distance. Limerick is surrounded by and built around nature. Open your eyes.

dave 27

Something to think about too is the fact that the centre of limerick is particularly big in comparison to the likes of galway and probably even cork too.
I always said it feels like it's much bigger than it should be for the population of limerick, therefore there's a lot more areas to look after and improve, that saying tho I think it will be interesting to see what will happen over the next few years now that the council have a bit of money

zulutango

dave 27 wrote:

I think it will be interesting to see what will happen over the next few years now that the council have a bit of money

It's not just a question of money though. If you don't have the right people in charge, i.e. with the right skills, qualifications, vision, etc, then all the money in the world won't greatly improve matters. That's where Limerick is at the moment. It's seriously lacking in the management department.

James Bond Junior

James Bond Junior wrote: »

I came to college in Limerick and never left. In fact I live within a stones throw of my alma mater in my own home which I bought alone. My peers with whom I graduated are scattered around the country but most are in Dublin. We all work the same job (public service) and as a result are all paid a standard and decent salary. But I am far better off than they are as a result of staying in Limerick. All of my classmates living in Dublin are paying handsomely more than the price of my mortgage for a room in a shared house. None of them can envisage owning their own homes on our salaries at present. I have a long commute every day but that is because I chose to live in the city and work in the county. My peers spend hours every day travelling a fraction of the distance I do, battling the m50, the m7, traffic, traffic and more traffic. I am on the motorway in 4 minutes and it's a straight run. The only traffic I encounter is being stuck behind the bin lorry in Adare the odd morning or the traffic I pass heading into the city. To say I have it lucky because I chose to stay in Limerick is an understatement. Limerick has everything pretty much that Dublin or cork has to offer but a reasonably cheap cost of living and very little traffic issues.
People ask me is Limerick rough and my reply is always the same; In my ten years in Limerick I've seen two fights outside a nightclub/pub and both of those were involving my friends whom were visiting from other counties. When I go back to my home place up the country I am guaranteed to see some sort of spat outside the chipper at kicking out time, so no Limerick is not rough. I count my lucky stars I live in limerick.

A quick update on my post last week.

I spent the last few days down in cork with my other half. We went out for dinner the 1st night. It was mediocre and cost us the guts of 100 euro. Same meal back in Limerick would have been three quarters the price of it. The following day we said we would go to Mahon point shopping centre, corks premiere shopping centre. The crescent made it look tiny to be honest. The traffic on the way at 5pm was chronic. The motorway was literally bumper to bumper with one rear end crash passed. This was an ordinary Thursday evening. Leaving the city this morning took ages because we must have passed through 15 sets of lights.

The Limerick side. We hit Limerick at around 1pm. I came off the motorway and was back at my house within 5 minutes. I ate this evening with my parents in town. We got three very good main courses for about 50 euro all told. It was better than my cork meal anyway. We drove into town from my house and went through two sets of traffic lights. On the way home we came through one. It was a 5 minute journey at most. There was very little traffic to contend with coming in or out of town.

The truth of the matter is Limerick is very pleasant to live in, so much so that there is a movement at foot of people leaving Dublin and taking their chances of life in Limerick without jobs to come down to. I know of 2 couples in the last month whom are jacking in life in Dublin and moving to limerick without jobs move to but confident in their chances here and the quality of life on offer is to good to ignore.

seachto7

Good post James Bond Junior. I have just moved up to Dublin after many years in Limerick. I'm from Limerick, but am glad to get out to be honest. Mainly for social and professional reasons. No way I'd get the same job in Limerick I have now. I *may* do, but probably wouldn't.

Not to say I wouldn't rule out coming back in the future. I'd like to live in Clare, near Limerick maybe. Who knows!

But the good reasons for living in Limerick you pointed out are very valid.

goochy

Stupid post . Traffics bad cause corks booming and limericks not. Did u not notice the better.planning in cork which means it's not full of dereliction / eyesores and empty places that should never have been built like in limerick ?
Limericks plus points over cork . Friendlier people . Less inward thinking and self absorbed . You guys have west of Ireland on door step.
There's more of an edge to life-. Cork can be too predictable / boring .
nicer riverside area and more modern city buildings .

Special Circumstances

James Bond Junior wrote: »

A quick update on my post last week.

I spent the last few days down in cork with my other half. We went out for dinner the 1st night. It was mediocre and cost us the guts of 100 euro. Same meal back in Limerick would have been three quarters the price of it. The following day we said we would go to Mahon point shopping centre, corks premiere shopping centre. The crescent made it look tiny to be honest. The traffic on the way at 5pm was chronic. The motorway was literally bumper to bumper with one rear end crash passed. This was an ordinary Thursday evening. Leaving the city this morning took ages because we must have passed through 15 sets of lights.

The Limerick side. We hit Limerick at around 1pm. I came off the motorway and was back at my house within 5 minutes. I ate this evening with my parents in town. We got three very good main courses for about 50 euro all told. It was better than my cork meal anyway. We drove into town from my house and went through two sets of traffic lights. On the way home we came through one. It was a 5 minute journey at most. There was very little traffic to contend with coming in or out of town.

The truth of the matter is Limerick is very pleasant to live in, so much so that there is a movement at foot of people leaving Dublin and taking their chances of life in Limerick without jobs to come down to. I know of 2 couples in the last month whom are jacking in life in Dublin and moving to limerick without jobs move to but confident in their chances here and the quality of life on offer is to good to ignore.

Agreed. There is one phrase that keeps limerick positive in all these situations.

Cork and Dublin Are Much Worse.

It should be printed on little scraps of paper and regularly showered over the city.

The reverse could be "don't stop beleeeeeiving kid".

James Bond Junior

goochy wrote: »

Stupid post . Traffics bad cause corks booming and limericks not. Did u not notice the better.planning in cork which means it's not full of dereliction / eyesores and empty places that should never have been built like in limerick ?
Limericks plus points over cork . Friendlier people . Less inward thinking and self absorbed . You guys have west of Ireland on door step.
There's more of an edge to life-. Cork can be too predictable / boring .
nicer riverside area and more modern city buildings .

Ok I think you've missed my point; cork is booming and that entails lots of traffic, prices going up which is negative but it has so many other things to offer as a result. Walking around the the streets there was a buzz as people were out and about shopping and the city was actually full of people at 9 on a Wednesday night. Walk through Limerick at 9 on a Wednesday night and count the people. My point is, here in Limerick traffic is at reasonably low levels compared other cities and prices are more competitive to eat out and drink than cork and Dublin by comparison and we are lucky to have that. There is a reason we visit Cork at least once a year, if not more, for weekends away and it's not to get sanctimonious about how good we have it in Limerick.

iguana

I'm from Limerick but spent most of my 20s and half of my 30s living in either Dublin or London (and very briefly Swansea). I never had any intention of returning to such a small city. Yet 3 years ago I returned to Limerick for 6 months and I won't be leaving. Almost every social convenience I want is not only available but nearly all are within walking distance. Yes Dublin has certain amenities that Limerick lacks, and London has significantly more than either. But when you have less time and money because you work longer hours to pay for extremely expensive accommodation that eats a huge chunk of your income. And the amenities are spread out making them harder to access, you don't get to avail of them all that often. As well as that we had a baby when we came back and could almost certainly get him a school place, whereas in Dublin we were literally placed number 6197 on the waiting list for one school when he was 8 weeks old.

Housing-wise our 25% deposit for a small house in a crappy Dublin suburb with no conveniences and a big commute into town bought us 100% of a detached house on a large plot with almost everything we want a short walk away. In Dublin and London money was always a stressor. We earned good money but everything was so finely balanced that saving was very difficult. We'd put money away but car trouble, a vets bill, broken boiler, etc would wipe us out. But life here is very different. Our income is far less as I'm a stay at home parent and my husband works less but we have no money worries and can save easily.

tea_addict

BoatMad wrote: »

I went to college in Limerick in the late seventies and early 80s and have been passing through it ever since. I think it has a most unfair reputation. personally I would out it down to the poor planning in the 70-80s, that led to a very poor city centre, i.e., the parts that " visitors " see. Whereas other cities tended to maintain a better grip on its centre, ( The same is true of O'donnell st).

Today with far more effort concentrated on improving the city centre, it now " looks" much better then it did in its past

Its nothing to do with working class or wealthy , dublin Cork and Limerick all have wealthy and not so wealthy areas, all have large issues with poorly planned suburban sprawl and social depravation

I never saw limerick as better or worse then anywhere else

well comparisons will always be made with other urban areas of a similar size , if one was to compare limerick to galway , no one could deny that limerick has chronically under performed on most levels this past decade or more , this despite having a far larger hinterland

tea_addict

limerick should be a great place to live for the likes of a guard , teacher or nurse as wages are the same countrywide , housing in limerick is dirt cheap , its cheaper than in any town within fifty miles of dublin from what i can see and about 35% cheaper than galway and 40% cheaper than cork