Dubai World Cup night

Lt Dan

Speaking of big race events, anyone hear about Breeders Cup Sprint horse, Bobby's Kitten coming to Ireland.! To Dermott Weld!!!! Royal Ascot bound. Hope Ramsey's are patient folk who like soft ground. Running in Cork Stakes tomorrow according to At The Races

http://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Cork/28-March-2016/1355/

Harry Angstrom

Lt Dan wrote: »

Speaking of big race events, anyone hear about Breeders Cup Sprint horse, Bobby's Kitten coming to Ireland.! To Dermott Weld!!!! Royal Ascot bound. Hope Ramsey's are patient folk who like soft ground. Running in Cork Stakes tomorrow according to At The Races

http://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Cork/28-March-2016/1355/

I'd prefer to be on Tommy Stack's one.

Lt Dan

Bigbok wrote: »

As a flat racing fan from SA I can honestly say I never heard of Cheltenham before I moved to irekabd,it's unheard of in SA,Australia and even the states.

Dubai World Cup is a great carnival,yes since the dirt the Ruropeabs don't travel but on all fairness 99% of the ones that did travel always got a hiding over there.This years carnival had terrible horses and I'll be the first to admit that but look at WC race and that's been the strongest ever,keen ice,frosted,chrome,mubtaahij,mshawish to name a few.

Someone said that some donkeys have won at the carnival,yes I agreed but there been donkeys winning at Cheltenham,Aintree,Epsom,Newmarket.

As a flat fan from down south I wait all year for the carnival,but Cheltenham days I'll rather watch paint dry

Dubai World Cup, Golden Shaahen, Dubai Derby (for 3 year olds) Dubai Sheema Classic , all in the early part of the year


vs


Any British/Irish/French Classic (for 3 year olds or older via Irish & French St Leger), King George VI & Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Any Group 1 at Royal Ascot, Irish Champions Stakes, British Champions Stakes, Juddmonte International, July Cup, and, of course The Arc in France (and any Group 1 at Longchamp during the Arc weekend)

Hmmmm, that is a tough one

The major British Artificial /All Weather/ Dirt races ? Lingfield on Good Friday - lol, or, in Ireland, playing Russian Rouelette in Dundalk on a Friday during the winter months.

Hell, even the big races at Arlington USA in August are probably more important to European trainers than Dubai, be they on turf or dirt.

Yes, the whole card at Dubai was significantly stronger this year. It was certainly enjoyable too. No bloody Godolpin and related horse dominating . It is a small price (ie change of track) to get the Americans on board. Even the Sheema Classic was a good race, the American horse ran a blinder

Lt Dan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

I'd prefer to be on Tommy Stack's one.

No better man to pilot a horse on a 6f strip , especially in Cork , than Wayne Lordan. Interesting that Lordan sticks with his boss' horse rather than Gordon Lord Byron, whom he has ridden a number of times.

Since we are talking about Cork. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Cork and Epsom have the fastest 5-6 F tracks in Ireland and England respectively? If so, why the hell are there no proper Group 1 and 2 races on these tracks ? It is not like we are completely saturated with quality group sprinting races in Ireland and England throughout the year, despite the best efforts of the British Champions Series. Seems this division is often ignored

I know the July Cup will never be removed (rightly so) nor Haydock (that is all they really have, flat wise) and Nunthrope is way too much fun...and Royal Ascot is vital, but surely in Ireland we would attract more horses. Curragh has everything (though they too have a nice sprint track)

Harry Angstrom

Lt Dan wrote: »

No better man to pilot a horse on a 6f strip , especially in Cork , than Wayne Lordan. Interesting that Lordan sticks with his boss' horse rather than Gordon Lord Byron, whom he has ridden a number of times.

Since we are talking about Cork. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Cork and Epsom have the fastest 5-6 F tracks in Ireland and England respectively? If so, why the hell are there no proper Group 1 and 2 races on these tracks ? It is not like we are completely saturated with quality group sprinting races in Ireland and England throughout the year, despite the best efforts of the British Champions Series. Seems this division is often ignored

I know the July Cup will never be removed (rightly so) nor Haydock (that is all they really have, flat wise) and Nunthrope is way too much fun...and Royal Ascot is vital, but surely in Ireland we would attract more horses. Curragh has everything (though they too have a nice sprint track)

They tried running the Temple Stakes for a year or two at Epsom, but it was a disaster. I still can't see why it shouldn't have been kept at Sandown, but that's for another day.

Ireland deserves an all-aged Group One race over 5 or 6 furlongs. Can't understand why this isn't the case, considering the likes of the King's Stand, Cork and Orrery and the Ascot race on Champions' Day have been upgraded to Group One over the past few years. The "experts" will tell you that the European Pattern Race Committee have upgraded these races because of the average increase in ratings of the participants, but it's a chicken and egg situation. There's not much chance that proper Group One horses are going contest Irish Group 2 and Group 3 sprints if they're forced to carry penalties.
Strange enough that they disallowed Group penalties for horses to run in that sprint on "Champions Day" at Ascot, before it got its Group 1 status......

Bigbok

Lt Dan wrote: »

Yeah, but often, you don't even have the countries' respective champions going to these big events, all due to schedules of course and how many times a horse ran. Of course, it does not mean that these events are not important. Personally, Breeders Cup and Hong Kong, both end of year events, are very important. For stayers, Melbourne Cup is glorious, and it is good to see better horses are taking part (yes, I know, So You Think under Bart Cummings ran, but that wasn't his distance)

It was a huge sporting gesture to send Golden Horn to the Breeders Cup , despite the poor winning record of Arc Winners for the Turf race. Sea The Stars was never going to go (and rightly so - alas at least Conduit, 2009 Turf winner was a proper champion horse), Golden Horn did not really have anything to prove by the time he went to the US (ran 6-7 times already that year - correct me on that if you wish) Unless, you are Aidan O'Brien, Breeders Cup (arrogant I know) can often be a bit of an afterthought for their star horses who won the big European events. Many who go to Breeders from Europe are top horses who may have won a Group 1 that year or nearly did (noting many Win and Your In Group 1's in England and Ireland) but kinda have something to prove or some unfinished Business. See how Highland Reel and Found were campaigned last year. Of course , horses like Conduit are an exception, but he was campaigned for the 2009 event (I know he won in 2008)

How many Derby and Guineas winners (be they English, French, Irish) leave Europe in the same season, bar Aidan O'Brien's horses?

Of course, everything above is ignorant. It is not the Breeder's Cup fault. Afterall, like Europe, the event is at the end of the year for them (and rightly so) But the idea of some horses being described as World Champions is hard to take when they might not have performed to their best at home. Magician , I guess was unlucky in 2013 - definite injury at Ascot, but so too The Faugue (what a horse)


Dubai?, meh. African Story and Prince Bishop winning prestigious Group 1's? Come on! Thank god, for the sake of racing, American Chrome did win yesterday. Look at many of the big winners over the years? Who are they? Of course, any racing fan would be more than happy to point out Solow and what he did last year in England and France.


If it was not for the British, Irish and French, many of these events ie Breeders Cup, Japan Cup, Breeders Cup, Hong Kong and hell even "Spot the Aussie" (nod to Bart Cummings) Melbourne Cup would not have the same International feel.

You don't see Aussies consistently travel (but they have massive purse races in Australia so who could blame them), I say that, noting their frequent presence at Royal Ascot. Bar Wesley Ward, in the last few years, Americans will only be seen at Dubai (and that is only since they changed the track), Hong Kong is probably too close to the Breeders for them. The Europeans might not win consistently, but they at least turn up - not necessarily with their best horses.(obviously their "back up horses" were just as good)

Obviously horses ain't machines or the same as humans, and not as cheap to transport

Anyway, Dubai was enjoyable this year with the spread of global winners. Nice to see dear leader/Godolpin not dominating.

Wouldn't it be great if it was possible for a world cup of national hunt racing - Yes, I know Cheltenham is it, but bar Baracouda, how many of the French took part? (Poor Nina Carberry knows too well from 2015 and that idiot of a jockey) The Aussies have a bit of National Hunt, so too the Americans (alas many old horses from England/Ireland)

But you do get world beaters in Dubai?To me the best mile horse in the world was variety club at the time and kingman 2nd,variety club went to Dubai as a 5/6 yr old and beat the best there then went onto Hong Kong and was the first foreign horse and first horse outside stall 9 to win the mile,beat able friend a good distance.would have run breeders but got injured on the plane coming back from Hong Kong,then u had vercingetorx which ran against the fugue and magician and look what happened there,that horse dominated Dubai for 2yrs until he got injured in a race there.

Yes I may be biased as I'm only talking about two SA horses but considering what it took to get them there.people will say magician and fugue weren't ready that time of year to run but trust me no owner/trainer will send their horses all the way there just to make up numbers.

In my honest opinion I would rate flat festivals in the following order

Dubai carnival(due to my SA interest)
Ascot
Breeders

That would be the top 3 for each year for me.where as my Irish father in law would be Cheltenham mad and not that big into flat racing outside of Ireland/UK

Lt Dan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

They tried running the Temple Stakes for a year or two at Epsom, but it was a disaster. I still can't see why it shouldn't have been kept at Sandown, but that's for another day.

Ireland deserves an all-aged Group One race over 5 or 6 furlongs. Can't understand why this isn't the case, considering the likes of the King's Stand, Cork and Orrery and the Ascot race on Champions' Day have been upgraded to Group One over the past few years. The "experts" will tell you that the European Pattern Race Committee have upgraded these races because of the average increase in ratings of the participants, but it's a chicken and egg situation. There's not much chance that proper Group One horses are going contest Irish Group 2 and Group 3 sprints if they're forced to carry penalties.
Strange enough that they disallowed Group penalties for horses to run in that sprint on "Champions Day" at Ascot, before it got its Group 1 status......

Ah. Fair enough so.

In what way was holding the Temple Stakes at Epsom a disaster ? Genuine Question. I was just surprised to hear Epsom had the fast 5-6 F track in England despite the twists and turns that would make Newmarket blush (obviously Newmarket is more dips than twist and turns) . The Epsom Dash (the one during Derby Weekend) seems good fun - not if you are betting. I really like Sandown.


I agree with you about the why certain races were upgraded, but you know yourself, many of those who take part in the Kings Stand and Golden Jubilee are either progressing horses (ala Slade Power in 2013, so long as he left the stalls) or Group 3 horses at best (Dare I say, Stepper Point)

But, that is exactly my point, and you alluded to it. Running Genuine Group 1 horses in prestigous enough Group 2 and 3 races is mad because of the penalities. But that is all they have until June/July and September. It might be fine for the English, but look at Eddie Lynam over the years, even before Sole Power - horses like Duff (decent competitive horse)

Surly they would come for a Group 1? , through it on during the Munster Oaks maybe in August - maybe not as there is the Nunthrope , but not every sprinter who excells at 6f could or should do it at 5f

But nope, we seem to neglect the 5-7 f horses a fair bit. Have to wait until June or AUgust (for French races)

Slade Power, pre Group 1 success in 2014 did well in Group 2 and 3's in Ireland. Sole Power was barely seen for 2-3 years in Ireland until last year. And they have to ship their horse to Hong Kong for a proper group 1 at 6f (which doesn't suit Sole Power)

Wachman too use to have a few decent sprinters

And, of course, the mighty Gordon Lord Byron who is asked to run at 5, 6, 7 and 8 f at any given time - a bit unfair

Sorry everyone for ranting , but the idea of those handing out awards last year to Due Dilligence as the best of the Irish in the sprint division (by winning a group 3 in Ireland) was hard to stomach. I think they bloody retired him now - sure the sprinters only come good at 5-6 years old. Glad Ascot have taken a step in the right direction with their new 3 year old only sprint Group 1

As for the British Champions Stakes weekend Sprint Race, originally a Group 2. Just as well, because of the soft ground and being after the Prix L'Abbye. But realistically, they had to try something because what is left after Haydock Sprint? How many of the horses have a realistic chance at Breeders Cup or even Hong Kong?

It would be nice to change it up a bit. Have one or two group 1 races where there is a bend or two like America and then have the straight course sprints

Suppose it is hard to get sponsors . Look at the stuff Cheltenham had when Ladbrooks and co pulled out

Alas, if there was a Group 1 sprint, we all know that it would be at the Curragh