Opinions: VR - Are We There Yet?

ED E

Google Cardboard + 1440P handset is really quite something. Tried it about 9 months ago and it was a bit of a mindf-ck at times.

jme2010

Virtual Desktop single-handedly won me over on VR. If you just think about 'made for vr' games, then you're missing a great opportunity.

I now don't have to upgrade my monitor or buy that HD projector is all here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjE6qXd6Itw

Slutmonkey57b

VR has been "imminent" for about 30 years now and it's never taken off. There have always been two questions about it: graphical fidelity, and the physicality of using it. They've spent 30 years on the former, and have now got pretty close, but nothing has or ever will change about the latter.

Ultimately, are you happy to sit around with a box on your head, waggling your arms and/or legs around like a plonker? It'll always be no for me. :-)

Calibos

jme2010 wrote: »

Virtual Desktop single-handedly won me over on VR. If you just think about 'made for vr' games, then you're missing a great opportunity.

I now don't have to upgrade my monitor or buy that HD projector is all here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjE6qXd6Itw

Will be picking this up when I get my Rift CV1 but am thinking of it more in terms of 'Proof of Concept'. Never mind its potential as a real desktop replacement, it has huge potential for VR Cinema. While at the moment the available virtual cinemas are not as good as those in Oculus Video/Cinema, its become apparent that Oculus Cinema will be effectively stillborn and functionally hobbled for a lot of people. Licensing issues will mean poor support for video and audio formats and even themed virtual environments. Theres not going to be Virtual Cinemas inside a Star Destroyer Hanger Bay for your Star Wars Movie night because either Disney won't allow it or will but at a large cost etc. Oculus will have to play ball with their content partners. Virtual Desktop on the other hand is much more free to allow 'user' created and downloaded themed copyright infringing auditoriums. It will likely allow the use of Kodi for example so we can leverage the Kodi UI and our media servers full of content to be displayed in on the Virtual screens. The likes of Kodi supporting nearly every codec you could imagine etc.


The issue right now isn't the potential of the program or those like it. Its that CV1 simply doesn't have the resolution yet to make most people give up their real monitors or projectors just yet. If we have dual 4K panels in CV2 we might be almost there. I did read that it takes 8-16k to replicate the res of a 1080p monitor on a virtual monitor viewed in the HMD. CV2 it might be viable but CV3 definitely.

Rezident

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

VR has been "imminent" for about 30 years now and it's never taken off. There have always been two questions about it: graphical fidelity, and the physicality of using it. They've spent 30 years on the former, and have now got pretty close, but nothing has or ever will change about the latter.

Ultimately, are you happy to sit around with a box on your head, waggling your arms and/or legs around like a plonker? It'll always be no for me. :-)

Happy? Yes. Very happy? Yep. Occasionally ecstatic like a child on Christmas morning and mind-blown? Yep that too.

The Gaming experience - on the Vive anyway - is actually mindblowing at times. But this isn't just better graphics, it's a whole new dimension.

And gaming is just one aspect. Wait til you realise you can watch every movie, every TV show in your own personal theatre (with like a 100 foot screen, I don't even know how big my virtual screen is!). This changes everything.

But you have to try it, no video can give you the sense of perspective - the other night in Universe Sandbox, I was playing with our solar system (as you do), just adding in a few moons and some extra planets - all to scale and moving and orbiting convincingly - when I found Betelgeuse in the menu. Now, I know Betelgeuse is big (it's a red supergiant) and is one of the largest observable stars in the universe. But to actually see it, to stand beside it and watch it's almost-impossible size flying into our solar system and immolating most or it, was breathtaking. You see I wasn't standing there with a box on my head, I was in space watching the birth and death of a solar system, and it was beautiful. It was stunning. Astonishing. And this is only the beginning.

TerrorFirmer

'Titans of Space' blew me away on the Rift. The jaw-dropping sense of scale and vastness that simply cannot be captured by photo, books, or video - it is there in VR.

MarkAnthony

Forgotten about this thread! Got my Rift, very happy camper. Are we there yet though - no, not in my opinion. My God though it is going to be awesome when it is ready for the general consumer market in a couple of years.

Video - already being shot in ridiculously high res, so that's going to be ready.

Film industry - already showing some imagination in the shorts that are out there.

Educational software and educational toys like Universe Sandbox - this could be as big a game changer for education as the internet was for Generation X. Some of the concepts out there are mind blowing. I was doing that Cell tour thing the other day - the sheer amount of information that can potentially be imparted in such an interactive way. It's staggering.

Games - Here's where the GPU power and screen quality just aren't quite there yet. It's going to get there (especially on the GPU side) very quickly though. I can seriously see in 2-3 generations of console the HMD being just something you buy. It'll be like an extra controller. If you want 2 or 3 or 44 player you'll just pick up that many HMDs, the majority of games will shift to VR or AR - that is one area I think is also going to be massive.

This is the most exciting revolution in video gaming since the technology began IMO.

Fakman87

Lads I got a bit of motion sickness after using the Gear VR with my S6. Does the Rift and Vive give you motion sickness at all?

TerrorFirmer

It does for some people - there's no universal reaction. I never had motion sickness with the DK1 or DK2, don't with the Gear VR either.

jme2010

Just tried the HTC Vive over the weekend at a demo.

My dear god. I can't get over how good it is. I've been a hardcore PC gamer for years and the vive has nearly ruined regular gaming for me :pac:

I was in a space hanger while robots were shooting at me, as the lasers got close a 'bullet time' effect kicked in and i was able to take a step (physically step sideways and dodge them!!!!!) My fiance said I was smiling the whole time haha.

I tried google tilt brush where I made a 3D cube with fire and smoke in it. Then the demo chap reminded me to 'take a walk around it', so I did a full 360 view by walking, leaning over and peeking inside whatever I drew.

Its so immersive and intuitive you can't imagine without trying it. I am 100% sold and will be buying it the second they have it in stock.

Also the chap told me about an oculus rift fanboy who rocked up to the demo like 'this is **** and the rift is way better'. Apparently half way through the demo, he was converted and wanted to buy the tech demo model right there and then :D:D

jme2010

Fakman87 wrote: »

Lads I got a bit of motion sickness after using the Gear VR with my S6. Does the Rift and Vive give you motion sickness at all?

I've tried the VR with a friends Samsung and I felt sick too. But the vive was built from day one with this in mind and I had a very enjoyable experience

MarkAnthony

jme2010 wrote: »

Just tried the HTC Vive over the weekend at a demo.

My dear god. I can't get over how good it is. I've been a hardcore PC gamer for years and the vive has nearly ruined regular gaming for me :pac:

I was in a space hanger while robots were shooting at me, as the lasers got close a 'bullet time' effect kicked in and i was able to take a step (physically step sideways and dodge them!!!!!) My fiance said I was smiling the whole time haha.

I tried google tilt brush where I made a 3D cube with fire and smoke in it. Then the demo chap reminded me to 'take a walk around it', so I did a full 360 view by walking, leaning over and peeking inside whatever I drew.

Its so immersive and intuitive you can't imagine without trying it. I am 100% sold and will be buying it the second they have it in stock.

Also the chap told me about an oculus rift fanboy who rocked up to the demo like 'this is **** and the rift is way better'. Apparently half way through the demo, he was converted and wanted to buy the tech demo model right there and then :D:D

They're in stock.

jme2010

MarkAnthony wrote: »

They're in stock.

Where?

I was waiting for PC World as the staff told me about a 0% interest payment option. Don't really have €900 to drop this month lol.

MarkAnthony

jme2010 wrote: »

Where?

I was waiting for PC World as the staff told me about a 0% interest payment option. Don't really have €900 to drop this month lol.

Through Steam.

Xenoronin

Or through Overclockers.co.uk, I think they have them in stock there too.

Solitaire

Given a relative lack of recent activity I'm de-sticky-ing this thread for now.

MarkAnthony

No sticky no forum, did we all jump too early? :pac:

Icyseanfitz

been thinking of a vive myself but dont know whether to wait for vive 2 or not

Calibos

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

been thinking of a vive myself but dont know whether to wait for vive 2 or not

If you're not particularily impatient then it could make sense to wait for Gen 2 where hopefully we'll have 4K+ resolution, larger FOV, maybe even eyetracking and foveated rendering. Gen 2 is looking like 2018 at the earliest.

Are you not considering the Oculus Rift? Its the better HMD in most ways. The one thing Vive had over it was the tracked hand controllers but Rift will have the 'Touch' controllers in about 6 weeks. 30 launch games.

Icyseanfitz

Calibos wrote: »

If you're not particularily impatient then it could make sense to wait for Gen 2 where hopefully we'll have 4K+ resolution, larger FOV, maybe even eyetracking and foveated rendering. Gen 2 is looking like 2018 at the earliest.

Are you not considering the Oculus Rift? Its the better HMD in most ways. The one thing Vive had over it was the tracked hand controllers but Rift will have the 'Touch' controllers in about 6 weeks. 30 launch games.

Ive heard a lot more positive opinions on the vive over the rift tbh, im waiting for the next gen of ultra wide monitors, next gen of VR :pac::pac::pac: il never buy anything haha

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Calibos wrote: »

Are you not considering the Oculus Rift? Its the better HMD in most ways. The one thing Vive had over it was the tracked hand controllers but Rift will have the 'Touch' controllers in about 6 weeks. 30 launch games.

You can play most exclusive occulus games in the vive with revive, the occulus controllers are nowhere to be seen, maybe December, steam integration, and roomscale. Vive wins the gen one customer VR war hands down (pun intended). The next gen will be interesting however that wont be until until 2018 at the earliest.

A 1080 has a hard time with VR, 4k screens will need not what cards come next, but the ones after that.

VR is awesome, get it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55q9W6stwP0

Calibos

You can play every Steam VR game in the Rift. The Touch Pre-orders will probably start shipping just after Oculus connect in a few weeks and a recent Leak from germanys largest electronic retailer and oculus distribution partner indicating them hitting retail Nov 21st at a price of €199.

Rift HMD better in everyway.
When Touch and roomscale with the supplied second camera arrives they'll have feature parity.
30+ actual high production value Touch games at launch instead of myriad of indie tech demo's.


Get the Vive if you have an irrational hatred of Facebook and think they'll be spying on you while at the same time being happily data mined on all the Google services you use.
Get the Vive if you fear that hypothetically Oculus are trying to create a monopoly but have no problem with the Steam ACTUAL near monopoly while at the same time not worrying that Origin or Uplay trying to out-monopolise your beloved STEAM.
Get the Vive if you don't understand the difference between a Timed Store Exclusive and a Perpetual Platform exclusive for games Oculus funded that wouldnt have existed otherwise or would have existed but with a much smaller scale or features or production values.
Get a Vive if you think its unfair for Oculus to ask for some timed store (not platform) exclusivity for games they funded and think its 'unfair business practices' TM and think that its infinitely worse than HTC's demand for equity in the devs companies in exchange for funding or Valves funding which is actually an advance on steam revenues that the dev has to pay back.

Don't trust me who only owns a Rift. Don't trust the guys that only own a Vive. Trust the guys that own both and likely not to have any bias. The vast majority prefer the Rift HMD, can see through the FUD spread by the Fundamentalist Facebook hating very vocal elements of the Vive community and PCMR crowd, they love tracked hand controllers but are bored of all the indie Tech Demo's and as soon as Oculus launch Touch, having seen all the YT Dev vids showing that Rift and Touch is just as if not more capable than Vive in Roomscale, assuming Oculus is true to their word and will have 30+ Touch Launch titles....well its their Vive they plan to put up for sale, not their Rift. What does that tell you?

jayo26

So your saying Dont buy a vive then?

Calibos

jayo26 wrote: »

So your saying Dont buy a vive then?

No, I'm saying don't believe all the anti Oculus Bile and FUD (Fear, uncertainty Doubt) only spread by the average Vive buyer because they remained in the r/Vive bubble and believed all the BS from the Vocal but influential minority of anti Facebook r/Vive and r/PCMR's. The cognitive dissonence that shower display is staggering.

I just ask that people do a bit of research before making their purchase decision and learn the real pro's and cons, learn what are facts and what is BS FUD.

The Vive is a great VR device. However IMHO the Rift is better in all the ways that matter except in a few edge cases like people with large heads might find Vive more comfortable or people with large glasses who can't use smaller rims for some reason. The tracked hand controllers used to be a big differentiator where it was recommended that if you didn't have the patience to wait for Touch you should get a Vive. However, now that we are within about 6 weeks for pre-ordered Touches and 8 weeks for Touch hitting Retail, it now makes sense to wait till you can read reviews comparing the two before deciding which one to go for.

ED E

Luke from LTT is a big VR head and has put forward pretty strong arguments for the Vive. I'd be slow to go near an OR at this point considering how they squandered their lead.

Personally it'll all depend on who has the best support in SC.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

I am an average buyer with no loyalties before i made a purchase. I simply looked at the reviews comparing both and made a value decision. The vive is a complete package, , the rift is hopes and dreams. The VIVE is backed by Steam with a long history of PC gaming. The Rift is backed by facebook who have no such experiance.

Both headsets are grand, both screens are similar, both have similar latency, The rifts wires are less intrusive and has built in speakers, the vive lets you turn around. If we are going to talk additions that may come out and which are not reviewed or priced then who knows. I judge on whats there now, not on what is promised. It takes developers years develop for a platform and launching the rift without hand controllers was stupid, the VIVE took them off guard

VIVE has Fallout and Doom coming.

Xenoronin

I'm also expecting the Rift to diverge into a mobile solution sooner rather than later. Looking at John Carmack's twitter, he hasn't been moved off of mobile solutions, working closely with Samsung.

savemejebus

Calibos wrote: »

The Vive is a great VR device. However IMHO the Rift is better in all the ways that matter.

Do you mean that hardware/technology wise, or software or support wise? I guess i'm asking, as someone not invested in this but curious, what are the ways that matter?

Calibos

Braylen Cool Statistic wrote: »

I am an average buyer with no loyalties before i made a purchase. I simply looked at the reviews comparing both and made a value decision. The vive is a complete package, , the rift is hopes and dreams. The VIVE is backed by Steam with a long history of PC gaming. The Rift is backed by facebook who have no such experiance.

Both headsets are grand, both screens are similar, both have similar latency, The rifts wires are less intrusive and has built in speakers, the vive lets you turn around. If we are going to talk additions that may come out and which are not reviewed or priced then who knows. I judge on whats there now, not on what is promised. It takes developers years develop for a platform and launching the rift without hand controllers was stupid, the VIVE took them off guard

VIVE has Fallout and Doom coming.

The Rift is Hopes and Dreams?? So you don't trust Oculus that Touch is a thing or will be out when they say it will ?? all because they were 4 weeks late shipping but you do implicitly trust the company that said they would ship December 2015 and literally 2 or 3 days before the expected launch delayed the launch by 4 months and then fed you a BS excuse about very very significant technological breakthroughs delaying the launch that turned out to be a monoscopic camera and a bluetooth receiver in the HMD???

The Vive is backed by a near monopoly in PC games retail that started a VR research department around the same time as Palmer Luckey met John Carmack. They made some important discoveries in relation to refresh rates and screen latency. They had no interest and commercialising their research like so many of Gabe Newells pet projects within Valve. When they thought they'd be the storefront for VR they were happy to let Luckey, Carmack, Oculus et al made the hardware. They shared their research with Oculus. Gabe was happy to let most of the senior members of Valves VR division move to Oculus. It was only when Facebook bought Oculus that Valve realised that Oculus might end up having a competing storefront. The Vive is a response to that threat and an attempt at a blocking move. If Valve was truly serious about VR they'd be spending the kind of money Oculus and Facebook have in ensuring content was developed. 6 Months after launch why does Vive still only have mostly indie tech demo's and short indie early access stuff? VR is a sideshow for Valve. VR is all that Oculus does!! Who do you think is likely to be more serious about the future success of VR??

The Vive lets you turn around?? Implying the Rift doesn't?? Both HMD's can do roomscale. The Vive because it has two tracking basestations in opposing corners, the Rift because despite only having one tracking camera up front it has tracking sensors on the back triangle of the head harness. The Vive can also do tracked controller roomscale because it actually has tracked controllers already. Touch will come with a second camera. When setup in opposing corners like a Vive the system is just as capable as Vive except the play area will be a max of about 4m sq compared to the Vives 5m sq. Moot difference when even Steam Stats show only 2% of Vivers have a 5m sq playspace anyway. Now that Touch is in the hands of indie devs and NDA's are looser their are lots of youtube videos showing Touch being used perfectly for all those Vive Roomscale Tech demo's. The last goalpost moving of the anti facebookulus crowd is that Oculus' recommended setup is two front facing cameras. Oculus believe that 270º coverage but with much better occlusion resistance for close naturalistic hand interaction is more important than 360º turning but with more risk of occlusion. Time will tell whether they are right or not. However, this stance has nothing to do with the capability of Touch in matching Vive 360º. Oculus cant stop you setting up the cameras wherever you want. Their stance only applies to games they directly fund. Its not an enforcement of 270º on any game on their store. As usual though, the shades of grey or nuance is lost when this type of thing is twisted to spread FUD and you end up with misinformed people making statements like you can't stand with the Rift or you can't turn with the Rift.

Judging 'whats here and now' was a weak argument at HMD launch but especially so now. Whatever about telling someone 6 months ago to get a Vive if they want tracked controllers because Rift doesn't have any yet, it is doing the person a disservice to tell them to get a Vive now for the tracked controllers when A. Theres still only indie tech demo's for it and B. When Oculus is launching Touch in October for pre-orders and direct orders and Retail on Nov 21st (according to major German electronics retailer and Oculus partner) ie. Hold off a few weeks for reviews comparing both VR systems.

Launching Vive without tracked hand controller games and only inhouse or Indie Tech Demo's was stupid. Rather than rush the controllers when Dev's hadn't got any games ready anyway, Oculus chose to keep refining Touch until it could be launched with actual games. They felt confident doing this and not worrying about splitting the userbase because they know that VR is only being bought by VR enthusiast early adopters now and for the next year or so.

They know price will keep the mainstream away for another few years. Thus their research likely indicated there would be a high attachment rate of Touch to Rift owners even if they launched separately half a year apart. All but the most hardcore simmers who only bought Rift for their Sims or the impatient who switched to Vive will likely buy Touch.

Next year they'll likely start bundling Touch with Rift. Hence if this years Rift sales total ends up being 400,000 and 300,000 end up buying Touch but next year touch is bundled. They can say to Dev's, look, Touch currently has a 75% attachment rate, we're bundling Touch now that manufacturing efficiencies and economies of scale have kicked in so that 100,000 Touchless Rifters remains a static figure going forward and the percentage attachment rate climbs to as close to 100% as doesn't matter as we sell more Rifts.

Thats just in relation to devs designing games specifically for Touch. Doesn't matter if Touch shipped half a year after Rift, if Devs are making games for Vive wands and PSVR Move anyway. It doesn't matter what percentage attachment rate there is for Touch. They'll be making the games anyway and will be happy to add however many hundreds of thousands of Touch owners to their potential customer numbers anyway.

Calibos

ED E wrote: »

Luke from LTT is a big VR head and has put forward pretty strong arguments for the Vive. I'd be slow to go near an OR at this point considering how they squandered their lead.

Personally it'll all depend on who has the best support in SC.

I'm not sure LTT as as impartial as they used to be or claim to be. Regardless, they are likely mindful of the Toxic rage that would come their way from the anti facebookulus element of the Vive community and r/PCMR loons. In review after review the Rift is said to be the better HMD but for [Dara O 'Briain]"balance" [/Dara O 'Briain] Vive is given points for actually having tracked controllers NOW. That was fair enough for the last 6 months but its not fair any longer. At this point so close to the launch of Touch people should be told to wait for reviews comparing both.

Tested were the most impartial and trusted VR reviewers of both camps until they said some things that the Vive community didn't like who then turned on them and claimed they were Oculus shills all along. Tested prefered the Rift HMD over the Vive and said although they loved the tracked controllers and roomscale of Vive, they always wished they could play those experiences with the Rift HMD but until Touch that was not possible

Given how great Elite Dangerous works with Rift and how badly in comparison on Vive after all these months after launch I'd say its fair to say it'll likely run and look better on the Rift. If you're waiting for SC before getting into VR then its the reviews of the CV2's of the respective HMD's that will interest you anyway. Can't wait for that game myself too.