1916 celebrations *Warning in post #1*

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

We'd be somewhere between wales and Scotland in GDP. Scotland does relatively OK of course.

But London doesn't seem to care about any regions, least of all another island. The south east is doing good. That's what matters.

What implies we'd be between Scotland and Wales? Why not higher than Scotland?

Yeah London doesn't care about it's regions. That's why they subsidize them to the tune of billions. :rolleyes:

Perhaps if Northern Ireland is so ungrateful for British subsidies they could be withdrawn?

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What implies we'd be between Scotland and Wales? Why not higher than Scotland?

Without control of our own tax and an IDA no. Scotland would be richer by a large amount.

Yeah London doesn't care about it's regions. That's why they subsidize them to the tune of billions.

If you let industry decline you are going to have to transfer. I also mean northern England.

Perhaps if Northern Ireland is so ungrateful for British subsidies they could be withdrawn?

It's funny that British Ireland needs those subsidies.

The U.K. state is highly centralised and capital and labour moves towards London. That's not something you can change with minor transfers, it's needs an industrial policy.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Without control of our own tax and an IDA no. Scotland would be richer by a large amount.

Why would we be poorer than Scotland?

If you let industry decline you are going to have to transfer. I also mean northern England.

Are you? Why? Is industrial production the only way anywhere outside the South East can ever make money?
Industry subsidies were already a transfer by the way.

Christy42

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why would we be poorer than Scotland?


Are you? Why? Is industrial production the only way anywhere outside the South East can ever make money?
Industry subsidies were already a transfer by the way.

I have no idea if we would be poorer than Scotland but it is interesting to note that every area in the UK except the South East has issues. We are not in the south east of the UK so draw your own conclusions there.
It is hard to see how we would have drawn the financial and tech industries to Ireland without control over our own tax rates. Our independence helped us way more in that regard than a regular pay out from London.

Strazdas

Christy42 wrote: »

I have no idea if we would be poorer than Scotland but it is interesting to note that every area in the UK except the South East has issues. We are not in the south east of the UK so draw your own conclusions there.
It is hard to see how we would have drawn the financial and tech industries to Ireland without control over our own tax rates. Our independence helped us way more in that regard than a regular pay out from London.

The down side of independence is that we were probably worse off because of Dev's trade war with Britain and his policy of protectionism up until the late 1950s. But certainly in the modern era, the suspicion has to be that we are better off as we are not an overlooked region of the UK.

tomwaterford

Strazdas wrote: »

The down side of independence is that we were probably worse off because of Dev's trade war with Britain and his policy of protectionism up until the late 1950s. But certainly in the modern era, the suspicion has to be that we are better off as we are not an overlooked region of the UK.

TBF the trade war was a face off as the British tried to bankrupt the free state by getting it to pay for its failed economic policies in Ireland

Iwasfrozen

Christy42 wrote: »

I have no idea if we would be poorer than Scotland but it is interesting to note that every area in the UK except the South East has issues. We are not in the south east of the UK so draw your own conclusions there.
It is hard to see how we would have drawn the financial and tech industries to Ireland without control over our own tax rates. Our independence helped us way more in that regard than a regular pay out from London.

Do they? Places like Birmingham, Manchester and Newcastle have relatively normal unemployment levels for Western Europe.

Strazdas

tomwaterford wrote: »

TBF the trade war was a face off as the British tried to bankrupt the free state by getting it to pay for its failed economic policies in Ireland

Dev was definitely guilty of protectionism as well though. The 1940s and 1950s were a horrendous time for the country, it was only the arrival of Lemass as Taoiseach that turned things around.

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

TBF the trade war was a face off as the British tried to bankrupt the free state by getting it to pay for its failed economic policies in Ireland

Britain tried to bankrupt the Free State because the latter didn't honor their debt.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Britain tried to bankrupt the Free State because the latter didn't honor their debt.

How could a state that didn't exist run up a debt?? :pac: :pac:

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

How could a state that didn't exist run up a debt?? :pac: :pac:

This way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War

dslamjack

I see the usual wind up merchants on here .... mhhhhhh ,,,, how awfully awfully boring ,,,, LOOK the Republic of Ireland is free of the filthiest most evil empire that ever existed on this planet.
Hitler ,Stalin , Mao Zedong,Tojo to name a few all got their filthy murderous idea's from the British.
Like it or not, the British murdered ,raped ,pillaged, stole,bombed ,tortured,terrorised,brutalised,victimised, and committed every atrocity known to mankind and gave it all the same façade of so called decency and civility as Hitler's Final solution,their evil empire was crushed by the peoples they kept subjugated for centuries through fear and murderous terror following the second world war.
I honour all who fought for our freedom and in doing so ,showed the world the way to freeing them selves of the filthy British imperialism.
The men and women of 1916 litthe flame of democracy that still shines today...if you don't like it go to an airport ,we are a democracy and you are free to leave at any time.


“A nation reveals itself not only by the men it produces but also by the men it honors, the men it remembers.”


― John F. Kennedy

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

This way.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War

Do you even read your links


The second line more or less says the Irish government refused to pay British government loans :pac:

maryishere

Strazdas wrote: »

Yes indeed, there's a lot of talk about about how we swapped British rule for Rome rule but my guess is that we would have seen most of the same things happen even if we were still in the UK .

Its unlikely the British would have tolerated the likes of the Magdalene laundries, the endemic clerical child abuse, the treatment of minorities, the corruption of Haughey and other politicians, the lack of regulation by our Central bank leading to the property bubble here, the actions of our banksters during the bubble years etc.
We currently have the second highest debt per head of population in the world - the world - despite all the handouts and bailouts and EC grants and EC structural funds and EEC handouts and common agricultural policy payments and free motorways. We also are a tax haven internationally much to the annoyance of the UK and US authorities, who would be better off if we were not laundering the profits of their multinationals. Would we have been such a borrower from the rest of the world if we were not independent?

maryishere

tomwaterford wrote: »

The second line more or less says the Irish government refused to pay British government loans :pac:

The annuties were money that the British government had loaned to Irish farmers before the Government of Ireland Act of 1921 and which the farmers had agreed to repay. Part of the Anglo-Irish treaty was that the Free State government would collect these debts and return the money to Britain. The Free State government failed to honour those promises.

tomwaterford

maryishere wrote: »

The annuties were money that the British government had loaned to Irish farmers before the Government of Ireland Act of 1921 and which the farmers had agreed to repay. Part of the Anglo-Irish treaty was that the Free State government would collect these debts and return the money to Britain. The Free State government failed to honour those promises.

Why would they collect money for the British after fighting to drive them from the country??

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why would they collect money for the British after fighting to drive them from the country??

To honor their debt, the Irish refused to honor their debt and suffered economic backlash as a result.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To honor their debt, the Irish refused to honor their debt and suffered economic backlash as a result.[/quote


Despite not existing to run up the debt??

How is that possible?

maryishere

The Irish farmers who got the loans did exist, and part of the Anglo-Irish treaty was that the Free State government would collect these debts, as they agreed to, and return the money to Britain.

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To honor their debt, the Irish refused to honor their debt and suffered economic backlash as a result.[/quote


Despite not existing to run up the debt??

How is that possible?

Huh?

Irish farmers agreed to pay annuities to the British, the government of Ireland had agreed to collect these debts as part of the Anglo Irish treaty but didn't honor that commitment.

It's all in the link I posted. If you have anymore questions it's there to consult.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

tomwaterford wrote: »

Huh?

Irish farmers agreed to pay annuities to the British, the government of Ireland had agreed to collect these debts as part of the Anglo Irish treaty but didn't honor that commitment.

It's all in the link I posted. If you have anymore questions it's there to consult.

So it wasn't Ireland's debts to honour??


The British wanted Ireland to bankrupt itself by collecting a debt for loan the British ran up


Why would Ireland collect taxes for Britain (Given what went down in the war of independence...no minds hundreds of years of misrule)...if they want it...let them collect it tbh
It's their debt...not Ireland's problem tbh

The British wanted Ireland to be its taxcollecter:pac:

Dirty Dingus McGee

maryishere wrote: »

the treatment of minorities,

All minorities in the UK were treated well.There was never any racism in that state.

maryishere wrote: »

despite all the handouts and bailouts and EC grants and EC structural funds and EEC handouts and common agricultural policy payments and free motorways.

Yeah.Other countries in the EU haven't benefited from that either.

maryishere wrote: »

We also are a tax haven internationally much to the annoyance of the UK and US authorities, who would be better off if we were not laundering the profits of their multinationals. Would we have been such a borrower from the rest of the world if we were not independent?

Oh how awful. It's just so unsporting that we decided to help ourselves.
You do know that smaller countries are much more reliant on international trade and investment and this we need to make ourselves as attractive as possible for foreign investment.

Iwasfrozen

tomwaterford wrote: »

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

So it wasn't Ireland's debts to honour??


The British wanted Ireland to bankrupt itself by collecting a debt for loan the British ran up


Why would Ireland collect taxes for Britain (Given what went down in the war of independence...no minds hundreds of years of misrule)...if they want it...let them collect it tbh
It's their debt...not Ireland's problem tbh

The British wanted Ireland to be its taxcollecter:pac:

The Irish government agreed to collect the debt as part of the Anglo Irish agreement but failed to honor that agreement. That's why the trade war started.

You can yammer all you like about whether Ireland should have had to collect the debt but they agreed to do it and in the end they did.

IrishTrajan

IamtheWalrus wrote: »

I was thinking the same. A few young Irish children of differing cultures showing our future and our inclusion.

I'd have no presence of religion or politics. This is a celebration of Irish people. Not a political exercise.

"I don't want politics in something celebrating a political action".

What's wrong with celebrating our history?

IrishTrajan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To honor their debt, the Irish refused to honor their debt and suffered economic backlash as a result.

The Normans didn't exactly honour their agreement to leave afterwards either

FrancieBrady

IrishTrajan wrote: »

"I don't want politics in something celebrating a political action".

What's wrong with celebrating our history?

You might annoy somebody if you did that! Shock horror!

Strazdas

maryishere wrote: »

Its unlikely the British would have tolerated the likes of the Magdalene laundries, the endemic clerical child abuse, the treatment of minorities, the corruption of Haughey and other politicians, the lack of regulation by our Central bank leading to the property bubble here, the actions of our banksters during the bubble years etc.
We currently have the second highest debt per head of population in the world - the world - despite all the handouts and bailouts and EC grants and EC structural funds and EEC handouts and common agricultural policy payments and free motorways. We also are a tax haven internationally much to the annoyance of the UK and US authorities, who would be better off if we were not laundering the profits of their multinationals. Would we have been such a borrower from the rest of the world if we were not independent?

I'm not really sure the British could have stopped a 26 county Home Rule Ireland becoming a "super Catholic state". The suspicion has to be that it was heading in that direction anyway and it would have been run by very conservative Catholics.

The question of what the economics of such a state would have been is a different issue : clearly we would have to follow UK laws on taxation and finance, so our story would have been similar to what happened in Scotland and Wales for the last few decades.

IrishTrajan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What implies we'd be between Scotland and Wales? Why not higher than Scotland?

Because Wales and Scotland actually had industrial bases, most of Ireland didn't.

Unless you think a bloated public sector a la Northern Ireland is better for us than our current economy.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yeah London doesn't care about it's regions. That's why they subsidize them to the tune of billions. :rolleyes:

That's like saying Dublin cares about Roscommon because it subsidises it. It doesn't. I've yet to hear a person from Dublin advocating for better roads in Ballinaheglish.

IrishTrajan

maryishere wrote: »

Its unlikely the British would have tolerated the likes of the Magdalene laundries, the endemic clerical child abuse, the treatment of minorities, the corruption of Haughey and other politicians, the lack of regulation by our Central bank leading to the property bubble here, the actions of our banksters during the bubble years etc.

Yeah, it's not at all like the British have abused minorities (what abuse are you referring to anyway?) and tried to genocide them a few times. It's not like the British have any corruption (did you forget the scandal about all those MPs doing coke and hookers?) at all, either.

maryishere wrote: »

We currently have the second highest debt per head of population in the world - the world - despite all the handouts and bailouts and EC grants and EC structural funds and EEC handouts and common agricultural policy payments and free motorways.

We also have one of the largest sovereign wealth funds in the world, and our holding in US debt alone is €250bn (about 4% of their foreign debt).

If you paid any heed to the news at all, you'd know we're one of only three countries in Europe whose GDP-debt ratio is set to decline from 2017 (I believe).

Also, you are talking about our debt but this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_external_debt) and this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt) seem to disagree with your assertion.

Presumably you have some kind of link to back up your claim? (We're 29th, not 2nd according to the link I posted).

maryishere wrote: »

We also are a tax haven internationally much to the annoyance of the UK and US authorities, who would be better off if we were not laundering the profits of their multinationals. Would we have been such a borrower from the rest of the world if we were not independent?

Our effective tax rate is higher than that of France - and what Google and Apple do (inter-company profit shifting) can be done in any country. The Dutch were brought to court by the EU, I believe. If you're going to call us a tax haven, you might as well call every country in Europe one (or do you think those Caribbean Islands, Channel Islands and Mann [all run by Britain] aren't tax havens?).



Why do you complain so much about Ireland and think Britain is any better? It isn't. Not by a long stretch of the imagination.

Arsemageddon

Regarding the non-payment of the annuities, Fianna Fail had campaigned on a platform of non-payment of the annuities from their foundation. They won the general elections in both 1932 and 1933 and further increased there number of TDs with by-election victories giving them n absolute majority.

Therefore, there was a mandate from the Irish people to cease paying the annuities.

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/

Iwasfrozen

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Regarding the non-payment of the annuities, Fianna Fail had campaigned on a platform of non-payment of the annuities from their foundation. They won the general elections in both 1932 and 1933 and further increased there number of TDs with by-election victories giving them n absolute majority.

Therefore, there was a mandate from the Irish people to cease paying the annuities.

http://www.historyireland.com/20th-century-contemporary-history/when-dev-defaulted-the-land-annuities-dispute-1926-38/

If a party ran on the platform of forgiving everyone's mortgage they would be elected too, you can't vote a government in to remove your personal debt. Especially not international debt, that's how trade wars start.

The Irish did pay the debt in the end, decades in advance after much needless suffering.

tomwaterford

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a party ran on the platform of forgiving everyone's mortgage they would be elected too, you can't vote a government in to remove your personal debt. Especially not international debt, that's how trade wars start.

The Irish did pay the debt in the end, decades in advance after much needless suffering.

Why can't you elect such a government...if a majority want it...you must accept it

(Fun fact: that's how democracy works)

quadrifoglio verde

tomwaterford wrote: »

Why can't you elect such a government...if a majority want it...you must accept it

(Fun fact: that's how democracy works)

Oh you can but That doesn't mean that your creditors have too. Default equals lockout ala Argentina until the lenders deem the country responsible enough to repay them

tomwaterford

quadrifoglio verde wrote: »

Oh you can but That doesn't mean that your creditors have too. Default equals lockout ala Argentina until the lenders deem the country responsible enough to repay them

^^this is true

But I can't abide pure lies:

British debts magically become Ireland's??


You can't elect a party running on x promise...when there's nothing in the democratic process to stop it happening (No matter how unlikely it may be)

Arsemageddon

maryishere wrote: »

Its unlikely the British would have tolerated the likes of the Magdalene laundries, the endemic clerical child abuse, the treatment of minorities, the corruption of Haughey and other politicians, the lack of regulation by our Central bank leading to the property bubble here, the actions of our banksters during the bubble years etc.

Britain was bailed out by the IMF in 1976 and they've had a fair few scandals with political corruption over the years. I believe David Cameron is in a bit of a pickle at the moment regarding his personal finances.

Hell,there was even an MP who took out a contract to have his killed...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorpe_affair

The recent revelations about sexual abuse by British celebrities shares many parallels to clerical abuse in Ireland. There is also the scandal of sexual abuse at the Kincora Boys Home in Belfast or more recently the failure to investigate paedophile gangs in Rochdale and elsewhere.

And as for treatment of minorities all I can say is that the mistreatment of a minority group in Northern Ireland led to the outbreak of the Troubles.

We have undoubtedly repeatedly fvcked up our own country, but this doesn't mean everything

We currently have the second highest debt per head of population in the world - the world - despite all the handouts and bailouts and EC grants and EC structural funds and EEC handouts and common agricultural policy payments and free motorways.

Every state in the EU knows the rules when they join and how the club works. Transfer payments are made from rich countries to poorer countries. Ireland is in no way unique in receiving payments from the EU.

...and no we don't get 'free motorways'.

We also are a tax haven internationally much to the annoyance of the UK and US authorities, who would be better off if we were not laundering the profits of their multinationals. Would we have been such a borrower from the rest of the world if we were not independent

More simplistic twaddle. Britain and the US are hardly in a position to criticise us.

Here's some articles from the Washington Post and Bloomberg about how the US is becoming the biggest tax haven in the world
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-27/the-world-s-favorite-new-tax-haven-is-the-united-states
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/05/how-the-u-s-became-one-of-the-worlds-biggest-tax-havens/

if the Uk's overseas dependencies were included in the figures with the mainland UK then it would probably be the worlds number one tax haven.
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/nov/07/britain-tax-havens-queen-secrecy-justice-network

The point of all this isn't to bash De Brits, its to point out the ridiculous double standards you keep using. Just because Ireland makes mistakes it doesn't mean everywhere else is perfect.

Cherry-picking, bluffing and bullsh1tting aren't a good ways to make an argument Mary, especially when they are done this ineptly.

Arsemageddon

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

If a party ran on the platform of forgiving everyone's mortgage they would be elected too, you can't vote a government in to remove your personal debt. Especially not international debt, that's how trade wars start.

The Irish did pay the debt in the end, decades in advance after much needless suffering.

Ireland didn't pay the full amount that would have been owed and we did get the treaty ports back, therefore gaining sovereignty over the entire 26 counties.

If people have been posting about the non-existence of a mandate for 1916 then its a bit of a stretch for them to be ignoring the existence of a mandate for non-payment of the annuities.