Would you die for Ireland?

Maximus Alexander

RealJohn wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Please try to keep up.
I explained that Fine Gael's idea to make Irish optional for the leaving cert would have a devastating effect on the Gaeltachts and that that would, in turn, cause the language to cease to be a living language so as to point out that that move would actually damage the language, rather than help it, as the poster I was addressing made out.

That's exactly what I just said, differing only in brevity. I am beginning to become concerned for you.

Jayop

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

I disagree. I think it can be bad for a child's wellbeing. Not that it's always bad for a child's wellbeing mind, but that in a case where the child has no interest, the time would be better spent learning something else.



Just the latter.

I am not arguing that there is any forced participation in the Gaeltacht. That link was made by RealJohn, who wants Irish to remain compulsory at schools so that students will go to the Gaeltacht each summer.

I think it should be mandatory in NS and possibly up to Jr Cert but for leaving it shouldn't be.

Honestly, I don't think we're too far apart in our views. I am happy with the government to subsidise the Gaeltacht areas to have them as a resource for our kids who do want to learn the language as well as for tourism and just to keep the language alive in a true sense. I don't though think that decisions on the education system should be made with that in mind.

Jayop

RealJohn wrote: »

That's not what I said at all. Please try to keep up.
I explained that Fine Gael's idea to make Irish optional for the leaving cert would have a devastating effect on the Gaeltachts and that that would, in turn, cause the language to cease to be a living language so as to point out that that move would actually damage the language, rather than help it, as the poster I was addressing made out.

I think that kids should be able to go to the Gaeltacht earlier. If Irish stays mandatory to Jr Cert then let the kids go from 12/13 on. I believe that a lot of people are indifferent to Irish until they go to the Gaeltacht so allow them to go earlier to spark the interest in the language.


Anyway, this is an awful long way from the OP now. :pac:

Maximus Alexander

RealJohn wrote: »

So would it be fair to say that you oppose carbon taxes, restrictions on the felling of trees, restrictions on fishing/whaling etc? After all, if the environment is so valuable, there ought to be enough support from those who value it to prevent any serious damage, right?

And I was accused of using a poor analogy.

irishguitarlad

Nah we wouldnt fight, wed all just be ringing up joe duffy constantly about it.

RealJohn

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That's exactly what I just said, differing only in brevity. I am beginning to become concerned for you.

Not it isn't. What you said was

That link was made by RealJohn, who wants Irish to remain compulsory at schools so that students will go to the Gaeltacht each summer.

whereas the truth, which I've already explained quite clearly, is that I want Irish to remain compulsory because were it to be made optional, it would go a long way towards killing the language. I mentioned the Gaeltacht so as to illustrate how this would come about.

RealJohn

Jayop wrote: »

I think that kids should be able to go to the Gaeltacht earlier. If Irish stays mandatory to Jr Cert then let the kids go from 12/13 on. I believe that a lot of people are indifferent to Irish until they go to the Gaeltacht so allow them to go earlier to spark the interest in the language.

I agree, except that parents don't tend to send their kids to the Gaeltacht at 12/13 unless they're already interested in encouraging the language in their children. Most parents, in my experience, send their kids to the Gaeltacht to improve their Irish because they know they'll have to do it for leaving cert. Take this away and the numbers going to the Gaeltacht will plummet.

Jayop

RealJohn wrote: »

I agree, except that parents don't tend to send their kids to the Gaeltacht at 12/13 unless they're already interested in encouraging the language in their children. Most parents, in my experience, send their kids to the Gaeltacht to improve their Irish because they know they'll have to do it for leaving cert. Take this away and the numbers going to the Gaeltacht will plummet.

You might be right, but maybe the Gaeltacht could do with adding a little more to attract kids. Things like Kayaking, hiking, and other outdoors stuff in an Irish environment.

My understanding of the areas now for kids going is to learn a little Irish and try to get the shift.

maudgonner

Jayop wrote: »

You might be right, but maybe the Gaeltacht could do with adding a little more to attract kids. Things like Kayaking, hiking, and other outdoors stuff in an Irish environment.

Some of the colleges do. Check out Colaiste Uisce in Belmullet - it's an outdoor adventure centre meets Irish camp.

And Colaiste Lurgan are well known for their cover versions of chart hits.

Jayop

maudgonner wrote: »

Some of the colleges do. Check out Colaiste Uisce in Belmullet - it's an outdoor adventure centre meets Irish camp.

And Colaiste Lurgan are well known for their cover versions of chart hits.

I edited my post to show what my impressions of the Gaeltacht are. I'm glad to hear that they are adding more facilities.

Iwasfrozen

RealJohn wrote: »

Not it isn't. What you said was

whereas the truth, which I've already explained quite clearly, is that I want Irish to remain compulsory because were it to be made optional, it would go a long way towards killing the language. I mentioned the Gaeltacht so as to illustrate how this would come about.

Our education system doesn't exist to keep Irish alive. If adults want to learn it they will, if they don't they won't.

Permabear

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Jayop

Permabear wrote: »

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Well it's a lot easier to convince people to eat pasta and drink wine of their own accord than it is to get them to learn a pretty difficult language that has no uses other than cultural.

People have to eat, people love to drink. Very few people enjoy sitting though classes being taught something in an out of date fashion.

RealJohn

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I've already told you that I'm not longer willing to engage with you until you show some understanding of what's being discussed. Your post hasn't done that so I'm not going to address it.

RealJohn

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Our education system doesn't exist to keep Irish alive. If adults want to learn it they will, if they don't they won't.

Our education system exists so as to educate us and I've already explained why the Irish language is an important part of that, not to mention that it's been well established that younger people have a more natural ability to learn languages which diminishes over time so saying that if adults want to learn it, they will, is pointless because for many of them, it will already be too late by the .

daveyeh

BrownTrout wrote: »

To be fair, speaking Irish doesn't rot your teeth or give you diabetes...

Link?

jack923

Hammer89 wrote: »

Imagine the Queen, in a very hypothetical situation, turned around and said: 'Here, lads, go over to Ireland nick those other 26 things back, would you?'

What would you do? Would you kiss your wives, girlfriends and children goodbye and risk your life for this country? Not trying to stoke any fires here I'm genuinely interested in knowing how many people would be willing to die in order to save the country.

Personally, I wouldn't. I'm not very patriotic in the first place, which you can probably tell, but even if I was, would I love Ireland more than life itself? I doubt it. I quite like being alive.

Yeah I would, not much people would though these days all the men care about is having the latest designer pair of jeans and how their hair looks.

Permabear

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Iwasfrozen

RealJohn wrote: »

Our education system exists so as to educate us and I've already explained why the Irish language is an important part of that, not to mention that it's been well established that younger people have a more natural ability to learn languages which diminishes over time so saying that if adults want to learn it, they will, is pointless because for many of them, it will already be too late by the .

Too late to learn a language? Now that's bs. I agree the education system is there to educate and I agree Irish should be part of it. What I disagree with is that Irish should be compulsory.

Also remember we're talking about 16+ year olds.

Jayop

Permabear wrote: »

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I think whether you learn Irish or not you're statistically 100% likely to end up dead regardless.

Look, I have no interest in the book of Kells but I know it's important culturally. I'm never going to properly learn Irish but I appreciate those who do and try to keep the language alive. I don't think it should be mandetory to leaving level, but we should be teaching kids Irish in school up to Jr Cycle.

Education isn't only about exams and jobs. Music, dance, history, sport, culture all play an important part in a wholesome education. Irish falls under that for me.

Permabear

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Jayop

Permabear wrote: »

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Like I've said a few times I don't think it should be mandatory for leaving and unless it genuinely is a requirement of a job then it shouldn't be a prerequisite.

IMO it should be taught more conversationally and you're right, as a cultural activity. I would even have no problem with it getting special status in terms of bonus leaving cert points for those who do choose to do it, but the amount of people with no interest at all, and foreign born/parentage kids in the countries schools makes the current situation very silly.

ancapailldorcha

I'm reminded of a time in my youth when I was picking beer cans out of a field with my Father. He told me that there'll always be plenty of lads willing to die for Ireland but when it comes to rolling up the sleeves and improving it you'll not see a man for miles.

jack923

Jayop wrote: »

Like I've said a few times I don't think it should be mandatory for leaving and unless it genuinely is a requirement of a job then it shouldn't be a prerequisite.

IMO it should be taught more conversationally and you're right, as a cultural activity. I would even have no problem with it getting special status in terms of bonus leaving cert points for those who do choose to do it, but the amount of people with no interest at all, and foreign born/parentage kids in the countries schools makes the current situation very silly.

Tbh you don't need 98% of the subjects we learned,

jack923

jack923 wrote: »

Tbh you don't need 98% of the subjects we learned,

I meant the subjects within subjects

Jayop

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm reminded of a time in my youth when I was picking beer cans out of a field with my Father. He told me that there'll always be plenty of lads willing to die for Ireland but when it comes to rolling up the sleeves and improving it you'll not see a man for miles.

Great expression. Not really true of course but a good expression none the less.

There's loads of people doing what they can for their communities and for the country. Volunteerism is alive and well thank God.

jack923

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm reminded of a time in my youth when I was picking beer cans out of a field with my Father. He told me that there'll always be plenty of lads willing to die for Ireland but when it comes to rolling up the sleeves and improving it you'll not see a man for miles.

Well your father is a smart man, if anyone fought for ireland it would be people from ballymun, finglas etc, 99.9% of the middle class would be nowhere to be seen and the upper class would be on their knees offering sexual favours to the invaders in exchange for their lives

ancapailldorcha

Jayop wrote: »

Great expression. Not really true of course but a good expression none the less.

There's loads of people doing what they can for their communities and for the country. Volunteerism is alive and well thank God.

Depends on your perspective. Hard to reconcile people who'll stick Celtic stickers and tricolours on their cars with throwing beer cans into fields where animals could get injured on them.

Iwasfrozen

jack923 wrote: »

Well your father is a smart man, if anyone fought for ireland it would be people from ballymun, finglas etc, 99.9% of the middle class would be nowhere to be seen and the upper class would be on their knees offering sexual favours to the invaders in exchange for their lives

Good man, you go fight. if you come back we'll give you a medal, if you don't we'll give you a really big medal.

jack923

Jayop wrote: »

Great expression. Not really true of course but a good expression none the less.

There's loads of people doing what they can for their communities and for the country. Volunteerism is alive and well thank God.

It takes a lot more courage to volunteer your life than to volunteer a couple of hours of your time to help the homeless

jack923

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Good man, you go fight. if you come back we'll give you a medal, if you don't we'll give you a really big medal.

I value pride I'd rather die a man than a coward

thattequilagirl

jack923 wrote: »

It takes a lot more courage to volunteer your life than to volunteer a couple of hours of your time to help the homeless

On the upside- it doesn't turn you into a killer (usually)

Iwasfrozen

jack923 wrote: »

I value pride I'd rather die a man than a coward

Yep good man, you die a hero and I'll clap when they parade the empty coffins.

P_1

Well seeing as I have zero military training (something tells me hours spent playing Hearts of Iron doesn't count) I'd be more of a hindrance than a help so probably no.

jack923

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yep good man, you die a hero and I'll clap when they parade the empty coffins.

It's not about what other people think

jack923

P_1 wrote: »

Well seeing as I have zero military training (something tells me hours spent playing Hearts of Iron doesn't count) I'd be more of a hindrance than a help so probably no.

You could sneak up and put a few bullets in a few heads

jack923

P_1 wrote: »

Well seeing as I have zero military training (something tells me hours spent playing Hearts of Iron doesn't count) I'd be more of a hindrance than a help so probably no.

You know before they kill you that is

Iwasfrozen

jack923 wrote: »

It's not about what other people think

Indeed it isnt, nationalism is the second biggest lie you've ever been taught next to religion. Other people fill you full of it when they want you to go die to preserve their privilege.

jack923

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed it isnt, nationalism is the second biggest lie you've ever been taught next to religion. Other people fill you full of it when they want you to go die to preserve their privilege.

People invading your country killing many of your fellow nationals possibly some of your family but nah that doesn't matter nationalism is all one big lie, sure we may as well just let the Brits take us over if they tried at least then we can vote on the x factor

jack923

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed it isnt, nationalism is the second biggest lie you've ever been taught next to religion. Other people fill you full of it when they want you to go die to preserve their privilege.

It's good to know the fighting irish are still alive and well

Iwasfrozen

jack923 wrote: »

People invading your country killing many of your fellow nationals possibly some of your family but nah that doesn't matter nationalism is all one big lie, sure we may as well just let the Brits take us over if they tried at least then we can vote on the x factor

In that hypothetical scenario, a different scenario than the OP's btw, you throwing your life away won't make one iota of difference.

So what's worse, Ireland invaded and you're dead or Ireland invaded and you're alive?

You're just falling for the rethoric of people who would never fight themselves.

IrishTrajan

storker wrote: »

But the idea of being proud to be Irish, British or of any other nationality is to me just silly. You might as well be proud of having two ears. As for the state being taken over, I would be more interested in how the new government was likely to run the country than what flag it would be flying. Your nationality doesn't put a roof over your head or food on the table.

But you see, that is where we differ. I am proud to live here. My family struggled through poverty, genocide, poverty, war, famine, more war, more poverty for hundreds of years. They persevered. They laid the foundations of the Irish nation. Why would I throw away their hard work, their bloodshed, and the bloodshed of tens of thousands of Irishmen and women over the centuries in the pursuit of freedom, just because the NHS is slightly better and insurance might be a little lower?

You're right, nationalism doesn't put a roof over my head. But it ensures that another power won't be able to come in, kick you out of your house and say "this is mine now" as has been done in the past.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

RealJohn wrote: »

They sold the lottery and Aer Lingus, both of which were making money (and even if Aer Lingus had been making a loss, it was very short sighted thinking).

And make no mistake, selling Irish Water is the long term goal too.

ANd other adminstrations never sold off anything...?

As for the other point, making Irish optional for leaving cert might be "a very practical and sensible educational approach" (and that is very much debatable, not to mention that they never suggested doing the same for english and maths, but we'll ignore that for the purposes of this thread) but it ignores entirely the knock on effect of such a change. Leaving cert Irish currently contributes heavily to the economy of the various Gaeltachts. Many Gaeltacht residents rely heavily on they money they make during the summer from Irish students. The flow of students dries up and many Gaeltacht residents have to leave the Gaeltacht in order to feed their families and the Gaeltachts disappear (over time). This is already happening of course but if leaving cert Irish is made optional, it will happen faster.

Once the Gaeltachts disappear, all of a sudden it gets very close to being the dead language it's often declared to be.

Which is all a false demand if the students don;t want to learn it, and they become pawns.

You see, this is what's wrong with dying for your country: people use this "freedom" to force their will onto someone else.

So again: what exactly are we fighting for? And don;t say "freedom" - you've no interest in other people being free.

IrishTrajan

Permabear wrote: »

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No, but the Government being charged with its promotion does.

IrishTrajan

Permabear wrote: »

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Bilingual/multilingual children are more likely to do well academically than monolingual children.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Bilingual/multilingual children are more likely to do well academically than monolingual children.

Had this debate many times: this is not an argument for Irish, it;s an argument for bilingualism. We could have compulsory German, French or Latin and achieve the same.

Also, it's really not an argument for dying for your country unless you're theorising that the British would ban the use of Irish if they did invade.

IrishTrajan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Indeed it isnt, nationalism is the second biggest lie you've ever been taught next to religion. Other people fill you full of it when they want you to go die to preserve their privilege.

Yeah, I'm sure Irish Nationalist leaders were all wealthy land owners who only wanted to protect their own pockets Did you skip the Irish-history part of your lessons in school?

Iwasfrozen

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure Irish Nationalist leaders were all wealthy land owners who only wanted to protect their own pockets Did you skip the Irish-history part of your lessons in school?

Their leaders certainly positioned themselves as the elite of the country they'd just created.

IrishTrajan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Had this debate many times: this is not an argument for Irish, it;s an argument for bilingualism. We could have compulsory German, French or Latin and achieve the same.

Because French or German is not Irish. The Government does not have a mandate to promote French or German. It does have one for promoting Irish.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Also, it's really not an argument for dying for your country unless you're theorising that the British would ban the use of Irish if they did invade.

You're conflating the arguments, one was about the language, other was about fighting for Ireland. I wouldn't die for the language, but I most definitely would die for Ireland if it came down to it.

IrishTrajan

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Their leaders certainly positioned themselves as the elite of the country they'd just created.

How many leaders of 1916 survived and led the country again?