Would you die for Ireland?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

IrishTrajan wrote: »

Culturally -

The language, and the entire culture itself. To most people around the world, Welsh/Scottish and English all mean the same thing - Welsh and Scottish culture has been largely subsumed by English culture, except in the more remote parts of those countries.

Fair enough - but would the language be under threat?

Economically -

We'd suffer from the pull-out of MNCs to somewhere more American-tax friendly. We'd earn less (despite the cost of living in Ireland being more on par with Scandinavia) or we'd enter a period of huge deflation which would have a detrimental long-term impact on the economy.

Our export-led growth would get pummelled by the higher price of the sterling compared to the Euro.

Unless you want to end up like Northern Ireland or Wales, whose entire economy relies upon public sector expenditure by London.

Econmically it's difficult to say. Again, becaue you're assuming these things would change. The UK does fine financially, and the intersting thing is that these things are more under threat from staying in the EU.

Politically -

Well, we'd never get to decide anything would we? As independent, we set out what we want to do and what we want to achieve. In Britain, you'd never have your hands on the levers of power and would end up with either the Conservatives (who don't much give a shít about the periphery) or Labour (who don't much give a shít about the periphery). At best you'd have an Irish nationalist party on par with the Scottish... Which, well... Kinda defeats the purpose of being part of that union, doesn't it?

I'm of the opinion we don;t decide anyway. There's very little to choose between the main aprties here and the ones in the UK: they're as corrupt as each other.

We'd get shafted in taxes to subsidize Northern Ireland, Wales, and parts of England (Cornwall/Devon come to mind) at the same time our economy gets either gutted or deflated.

Scotland sets it's own tax rates, no reason to believe we wuldn't either.

But so long as some smart asses think they're better off part of England because "nhs is better" and "car tax cheaper", you'll always have them saying independence is pointless, despite us being in a union with Britain being the economic equivalent to having one shoved up our back doors.


Why would I fight for Ireland and what would I fight for?

Because I believe the Irish people have an indefeasible right to self-determination, because I believe Irishmen and Irishwomen should be elected to lead, and be held accountable to, Irishmen and Irishwomen. Not some posh ponce from Eton or a batshít insane leftist who thinks white people are the devil, who will never be answerable to their effect on us.

... but then you have the culchie ponce from Castlebar or the alleged "socialist" ponce who nearly bancrupted the country before him?

This is the problem I have with dying for Ireland: I really don't think much would change whether I fought and died or stood back and lived. The whole point of democracy is to not allow change, whether it's Irish, British or someone else's.

Now, if I felt my lifestyle was under threat, that's a different question. But most of threats to that actually came from within Ireland, and having tried to fight it for a while, it soon became pointless. Irish people, ironically, don't like change, but will fight to prevent it from happening.

IrishTrajan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Fair enough - but would the language be under threat?

The language is one aspect of the culture, and yes. British media would become more pervasive, and the Government's charge (promoting the use of Irish) would evaporate.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Econmically it's difficult to say. Again, becaue you're assuming these things would change. The UK does fine financially, and the intersting thing is that these things are more under threat from staying in the EU.

Even in the short-term, periods of political instability can have detrimental effects on the economy. On a much smaller scale - look at the Sterling, it's prices have fluctuated with just talks about the referendum.

During the Scottish referendum, oil companies pumped less oil to conserve expenses and see whether it was worth pumping more or not (not least to do with the potential dispute over who actually owned the oil).

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

I'm of the opinion we don;t decide anyway. There's very little to choose between the main aprties here and the ones in the UK: they're as corrupt as each other.

I'll take a corrupt Irishman over a corrupt Englishman, because the corrupt Irishman will get stuff done for his local - look at Healy Rae, he's as twisted as anything, but he gets things done for his community and gets re-elected. If he was part of Westminster, with what, 500 seats? You think they'd ever get anything done?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Scotland sets it's own tax rates, no reason to believe we wuldn't either.

The Scots also have their own judicial system. Northern Ireland and Wales do not (though there was talk of them having taxes devolved). There's absolutely no reason to expect the Tories (who are silent on their promises of financial autonomy since the referendum) would allow us to do anything.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

... but then you have the culchie ponce from Castlebar or the alleged "socialist" ponce who nearly bancrupted the country before him?

Aye, because at least bogger will get his legs slapped on the pitch with a hurl.

MadDog76

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

Here's the full version:

http://wpc.8146.edgecastcdn.net/008146/JohnByrne/WouldYouDieForIre.mp4

Maximus Alexander

Deleted User wrote: »

Here's the full version:

http://wpc.8146.edgecastcdn.net/008146/JohnByrne/WouldYouDieForIre.mp4

Your one who said Defin-eye-tly can go first.

nacho libre

MarkY91 wrote: »

I woukdnt die for anything or anyone.

I have 1 shot at life and I intend to live it.

So you wouldn't die to protect family members, if there was no other alternative?

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

IrishTrajan wrote: »

I'll take a corrupt Irishman over a corrupt Englishman, because the corrupt Irishman will get stuff done for his local - look at Healy Rae, he's as twisted as anything, but he gets things done for his community and gets re-elected. If he was part of Westminster, with what, 500 seats? You think they'd ever get anything done?

Again, fair point, but are you really telling me you'd die for a currupt individual?

If Enda wants me to die so he can run an independent Ireland, he'd better be willing to stand beside me and hold a gun and die himself. And I seriously doubt that's going to happpen.

roadrunner16

MadDog76 wrote: »

Did you mean to quote someone else's post?

:P no I did not !!

MadDog76

roadrunner16 wrote: »

:P no I did not !!

In that case, your post is nonsensical.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

FTA69

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Errah go on away out of it you rapacious capitalist, if there was any conflict to free dear old Ireland you'd be running around flogging arms to both sides.

LDN_Irish

MadDog76 wrote: »

Hahaha that was great! The black fella. "Errrrrrrrm no. No. I'm really sorry, I can't!" He was on the cusp of a great excuse, I really wish I'd heard it.

whisky_galore

IrishTrajan wrote: »

As for Shannon, you're completely overstating its effect. That's not a breach of sovereignty, that is us exercising our sovereignty. We choose who and what we allow through. Russia, China, Mick Wallace or Clare Daly or any other crank who thinks that the US using Shannon Airport as a stopover somehow lessens our sovereignty are delusional. If you're being told by someone else who you can and cannot allow through your own territory, that is affecting our sovereignty.

We choose to cosy up to the ones that pay out. We bend over backwards for the Yanks, because keeping the US sweet and getting dollars and cents mean more than the 'human rights' we impotently plead about. We'll facilitate the warmongers and wear a fig leaf of neutrality.

We're anyone's bitch, for the right price. We'll take the EU development money, yes thanks very much... but we have to play by their rules.

jimgoose

"Go 'long, ye bowsie - there was only one Brigade you ever saw, the fuckin' Fire Brigade!" -- B. Behan.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

IrishTrajan

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

Again, fair point, but are you really telling me you'd die for a currupt individual?

If Enda wants me to die so he can run an independent Ireland, he'd better be willing to stand beside me and hold a gun and die himself. And I seriously doubt that's going to happpen.

No, because it's not him I'm fighting for. If the British (or Americans or French or whomever) invaded, I'd fight regardless of my thoughts on the current Government. If the Government ups and decides it wants to invade Morocco, I would refuse.

ToddyDoody

F*ck no, I'm far too precious.

Arghus

No.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

FTA69 wrote: »

Errah go on away out of it you rapacious capitalist, if there was any conflict to free dear old Ireland you'd be running around flogging arms to both sides.

Well.... that was random....

HardenendMan

Jeez there's a lot of wimps on this thread. But I suppose an Internet forum wouldn't be representative of the overall population.

So people are saying if a foreign army came over and said we are forcibly taking over and will attempt to kill those that resist...yee all would just say go ahead have it its yours???

I will concede that I don't have a family to take care of.

Arghus

HardenendMan wrote: »

Jeez there's a lot of wimps on this thread. But I suppose an Internet forum wouldn't be representative of the overall population.

So people are saying if a foreign army came over and said we are forcibly taking over and will attempt to kill those that resist...yee all would just say go ahead have it its yours???

I will concede that I don't have a family to take care of.

Of course I'd resist in the case of the examples you mentioned. But in those cases I'd be fighting and dying for family or friends or home or my right to live in peace etc, etc: They are all real tangible things, worth fighting for.

"Ireland" is an abstract idea that can mean just about anything. I don't think I'd sacrifice myself just for for "Ireland". I'm not even sure what it means, really.

Stojkovic

Imagine there's no countries

Arghus

It's easy if you try

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Stojkovic wrote: »

Imagine there's no countries

And no religion too....

Arghus

I am The Walrus.

timthumbni

This thread is complete nonsense. It seems that the Easter rising 100th year week has made people talk complete nonsense. There is more chance of Klingons invading than the British. It's a silly internet question with no real answer as at the moment why would anyone die for Ireland.

As a wee tiny neutral county on the arse end of nowhere I think you are safe enough. Until the ruskies come a knockin' of course..........

Sand

IrishTrajan wrote: »

No, because it's not him I'm fighting for. If the British (or Americans or French or whomever) invaded, I'd fight regardless of my thoughts on the current Government. If the Government ups and decides it wants to invade Morocco, I would refuse.

Really you would though. The Russians who fought in WW2 were largely not fighting for Stalin. A large minority of Red Army recruits in the early 1940s had not even heard of Stalin, to the shock of their political commissars.

The majority of the Russians who fought did so for their fellows beside them or the old pre-communist Russian nationalist values and resistance to the invader which continues to this day with Putin. The Red Army actually rolled back the influence of the political commissars, valuing instead practicality and experience over political reliability. Those who thought about the larger themes of the war, or the future, imagined a freer Soviet Union with Stalinist values being rolled back - they saw the war as being an awakening from the Red Terror.

They were wrong. As soon as the war was won, Stalin rolled the shutters back down. The veterans who won the war, and dreamed of a freer Russia were instead co-opted into a safe, Stalin friendly narrative of the war, that is still reflexively adopted in Russia today. Whatever they fought for was quickly removed from the official accounts. They all fought for Stalin.

"Ireland", whatever that means, will always survive all but the most extreme invasions. If you are dying for Enda Kenny, you are dying for Enda Kenny.

roadrunner16

MadDog76 wrote: »

In that case, your post is nonsensical.

I was quoting George S Patton, people ask would you die for your country, implying that death is the ultimate sacrifice you could make, but not a useful one, and killing for your country is a much greater thing to ask of someone,

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." - George S. Patton

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

roadrunner16 wrote: »

I was quoting George S Patton, people ask would you die for your country, implying that death is the ultimate sacrifice you could make, but not a useful one, and killing for your country is a much greater thing to ask of someone,

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." - George S. Patton

Depends on wheher the death results on victory though.

Expecting someone to kill or die for a country just seems to me to be a selfish: my life is not the property of the State.

FunLover18

timthumbni wrote: »

This thread is complete nonsense. It seems that the Easter rising 100th year week has made people talk complete nonsense. There is more chance of Klingons invading than the British. It's a silly internet question with no real answer as at the moment why would anyone die for Ireland.

As a wee tiny neutral county on the arse end of nowhere I think you are safe enough. Until the ruskies come a knockin' of course..........

A silly internet question? On the internet? Who does the OP think he/she is? Ban them, I say.

MadDog76

roadrunner16 wrote: »

I was quoting George S Patton, people ask would you die for your country, implying that death is the ultimate sacrifice you could make, but not a useful one, and killing for your country is a much greater thing to ask of someone,

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his." - George S. Patton

I recognised the Patton quote, I was questioning your motive of using it in quoting me as it had no relevance to my post whatsoever.

mickstupp

I would die for some of my family, I would die for some of my friends. I would even die for some people who used to be friends but I haven't seen in many many years. There's not a hope in hell that I'd die for this country.

Niemoj

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Speak for yourself! Irish is most certainly not a "pointless language", it is a massively intrinsic part of our culture, our music, our heritage, our people. And I for one will not let the language die without a fight.

Fuair mé an teanga mo chroí i nGaeilge.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Niemoj wrote: »

Speak for yourself! Irish is most certainly not a "pointless language", it is a massively intrinsic part of our culture, our music, our heritage, our people. And I for one will not let the language die without a fight.

Fuair mé an teanga mo chroí i nGaeilge.

There's that "our" word again.

Taken in context, it is not a massively intrinisic part of every 14-year-old in the country and it is selfish to imply that it is or should be.

FunLover18

Niemoj wrote: »

Speak for yourself! Irish is most certainly not a "pointless language", it is a massively intrinsic part of our culture, our music, our heritage, our people. And I for one will not let the language die without a fight.

Fuair mé an teanga mo chroí i nGaeilge.

Ah, go on

Barry Badrinath

Everyone is different. No one is right and no one is wrong.

Some here answer the question with a definite, "no". Some will say a definite, "yes"

Some say "no" because the Government are cnuts. Some say "no" because being born in Ireland was a geographical fluke and why should they die for that. Some say "no" because dying for land that they don't own or means nothing to them is absurd.

Some say "yes" with a qualifier, if my friends or family are under threat from someone, then they will.

Me, I would. The likelihood of any of us being required to die for our country are minuscule.

I won't put myself on the line for any member of Government but for what they represent. We have the luxury of living in a democracy, not a theocracy, monarchy or dictatorship.

There are lands out there that are mired in excessive corruption (worse than ours), bound by awful archaic rules and regulations, governed by religious laws that are brutal to their citizens.

Ireland isn't as bad as we all say it is. The "Ireland is shyte" bandwagon is full and the people hanging on to the sides are dragging it down further.

We, as a nation, in 100 years have done so much for the World. We have contributed so much in almost every field. We punch above our weight in many ways, including in putting ourselves down.

For every one of us that says they would not die for Ireland, that's fair enough, it's your right not too. We are lucky you have that choice.

If needed, i'd fight, i'd fight until I had nothing left. I believe in Ireland and it's people. I would die for all the good the Irish have contributed to over the years of our existence and all the future good we could do.

So many other people would too.

storker

timthumbni wrote: »

This thread is complete nonsense. It seems that the Easter rising 100th year week has made people talk complete nonsense. There is more chance of Klingons invading than the British. I

There's definitely no way I'd fight, then. Those Klingons are badasses....

ShadowHearth

I live on Ireland for over 10 years. I came to this country with 20 quid to my name amd **** all where to go back. I don't have much, but all I have I earned it in Ireland and Ireland was the place which gave me opportunity to do so. If there will be a world war 3, I I'll go fight under the Irish flag.

If English will try to take over... I don't know I might sit this one out lads. Sorry, they are doing the whole government thing a bit better and English car tax is a lot cheaper.

jaysisjames

I would be willing to die for Ireland, if another ideology was trying to force us into accepting their way of life over our current way of life..if that makes any sense!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

ShadowHearth wrote: »

I live on Ireland for over 10 years. I came to this country with 20 quid to my name amd **** all where to go back. I don't have much, but all I have I earned it in Ireland and Ireland was the place which gave me opportunity to do so. If there will be a world war 3, I I'll go fight under the Irish flag.

If English will try to take over... I don't know I might sit this one out lads. Sorry, they are doing the whole government thing a bit better and English car tax is a lot cheaper.

A man with his principles in order - well done!

Irelandcool

I'd just find a cave, hook up some electrical stuff start playing video games and watching crunchyroll, netflix, wwe network. Then go out and do some bear grylls style hunting or sneak in and steal some supplies MGS5 style. Sounds like fun right? so long as it doesn't flood I'll be fine. I mean maybe I take the side of the Irish but that's just so I can take away some of the british supplies.