Help with Electrical Quote

mapera

Hi Guys,
I have received a quote from an electrician who is a subcontractor on a house refurb. He's doing great work, but the quote is on the high side for my liking.

The property is a good size, about 2700 sqft but it's a fairly standard job. Other quotes were around 10-14k which is what i was prepared for, but the subcontractor has it coming in at 22k. This seems high to me.

Ive received a breakdown but it's relatively high level. Main contractor is saying that we have to proceed (he is already half way through 1st fix). There are things that I think are a little on the high side... 2000 for smoke alarms (there are 8-9), 800 for testing and certification.

I want to keep it all civil and moving along as it has been, but does seem a little on the high side?
Thx

meercat

dont usually comment on other peoples quotes but imho your being ripped off

are you sure its 22k

thats not even close to the right cost

Risteard81

meercat wrote: »

thats not even close to the right cost

Without seeing the spec that really is just speculation on your part.

Sleeper12

It's going to be hard to keep things civil. It's very strange that the electrictrican started work without you agreeing to the price. Or another way to say it is you let him start without agreement first. Not saying who's to blame, just saying that it is strange.

Stoner

Risteard81 wrote:

Without seeing the spec that really is just speculation on your part.

That's true, although there is a figure of 2K for 8 or 9 smoke alarms.

But we don't know the spec and we also don't know if there has been rework, ie have those smokes been moved several times.

meercat

Risteard81 wrote: »

Without seeing the spec that really is just speculation on your part.

Your quite right.

The op says it's a standard job although 9 detectors may indicate a bigger job. With the new co2 regulations it could still mean a 4 bed home.
I have however never got close to €22k on a house refurb of that size.also to charge €800 to certify and test seems extreme. I would have though you would include it in a contract that size.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong.

mapera

Thanks guys, it is a 4 bed home. He was allowed onsite because he is a subcontractor for the builder and the builder didn't get a costing ahead of time. (fuming)

Had an onsite meeting with them today, all very civil but price not changing. Not really sure what to do at this point as he has half the 1st fix done!

Sleeper12

mapera wrote:

Thanks guys, it is a 4 bed home. He was allowed onsite because he is a subcontractor for the builder and the builder didn't get a costing ahead of time. (fuming)

Would this not be the builders problem. If you didn't approve him as your electrician or approve his quote for the job and the builder let him onsite I don't see how its your problem. as an outsider looking in that is how it looks to me

salmocab

22K certainly seems very high. Take it up with your contractor tell him you have lower prices and didn't approve that price so he needs to either sort out the price or run the electrician. Thats all assuming you didn't say something along the lines of yeah let him at it and we will sort it out later.

meercat

mapera wrote: »

Thanks guys, it is a 4 bed home. He was allowed onsite because he is a subcontractor for the builder and the builder didn't get a costing ahead of time. (fuming)

Had an onsite meeting with them today, all very civil but price not changing. Not really sure what to do at this point as he has half the 1st fix done!

Any chance of a brief spec
I will still stick with my initial gut reaction that's it's way to high. You're in a difficult position now as the work has started but don't let that force you into accepting the estimate. You will struggle to get another electrical contractor in now even if you rip out any wiring done as there will be bad feeling between a new electrician and your builder. Best bet is to try resolve the price issue now before any further work is done.

Have you accepted your electrical contractors quote. If not then he has part wired your house without agreement. It's his loss.

notharrypotter

mapera wrote: »

Thanks guys, it is a 4 bed home. He was allowed onsite because he is a subcontractor for the builder and the builder didn't get a costing ahead of time. (fuming)
!

What is written in your contract with the main contractor regarding the electrical works?
Who was to provide the electrical works?
Was there a time pressure to get the works done?

You will struggle to get another electrical contractor in now even

Someone more knowledgeable than I might clarify as to how happy would an electrician be to certify work they did not do?
Or is this even legal?

I remember ads where all electrical works must be by a certified individual.

Would the new electrician simply remove all the other work and replace it with their own as they know what they have done and would happily bet their professional insurance on their own work?

If not then he has part wired your house without agreement.

I wonder about this would this not depend on who was to provide the electrical works.
If the main contractor was to and there was no specification/price then maybe the Op is liable.

Best bet is to try resolve the price issue now before any further work is done.

I think this is the best option.

meercat

Just to clarify
A registered electrical contractor cannot certify another's work so any wiring would have to be removed by either the existing contractor or a new one.

salmocab

OP could you let us know how it came about that he started and what agreements are in place with the contractor regards the electrics

fred funk }{

Definitely more to this story than meets the eye. It doesn't make sense.

2011

Agree with the others.

There is no point in allowing an electrical contractor do start work without agreeing a price and then complain about the cost.

So if mapera did not tell electrical contactor to start, did the builder tell the electrical contractor to start and if so did mapera give the builder the authority to do this?

mapera

We had not agreed on a price. There was a PC sum in the contract, but that is not an agreed price.

The subcontractor was employed by the architect & builder to start. I asked for breakdown before he started but in the interest of keeping this moving (i need to get this done asap), I was less strict here. He started without a price with me.

It's not the kind of thing Im going to make up, i.e. me being an idiot.


I should say, the architect/builder are sticking to their guns saying this is not an unreasonable quote at all. I think it's way too high.

salmocab

Don't think anyone was suggesting you were making anything up but people did want a bit more info on how it came about before offering opinions. A lot of people here would be professionals and will have seen similar things but as with everything the devil is in the detail.
For me you should go to the builder architect with the other quotes and ask how they could be so different and is there any difference in the specs that were quoted for.
I have seen what appear to be wildly different quotes but on closer inspection company A may have left out certain parts like a complicated heating control system or the garden lights which company B did quote for.
That said I do think your spark has a fairly hefty price in so I would be sorting that out immediately as the longer you wait the less likely you are to get satisfaction.

mapera

Here is the complete quote I received

Preliminaries 1,000.00
General Services - power outlets 3,040.00
Cooker point 150.00
Devi mats wiring 450.00
Devi Mats 450.00
Lighting wiring only 6,840.00
Extract fan wiring c/w isolators - ductwork by others 750.00
CAT 6 data cabling 540.00
TV Cabling 360.00
Door Bell wiring 90.00
Smoke / Detectors 450.00
Distribution Board 1080.00
Earthing and bonding 600.00
Testing and certification 800.00
Total excl. MCD & VAT 16,600.00

Extras
Wire for intruder alarm €1,500.00
Wire for additional smoke alarm to current regs €1,600.00
Wire for 2 additional TV points in Bed1 & 2
its good practice to include data as well € 240.00
Relocate washer and dryer to back wall of utility
area - requires 2 no isolators to be installed € 100.00
2 no external downlights in soffit over entrance
c/w motion sensor € 280.00
Mechanical wiring controls € 990.00
1 no twin socket in landing € 60.00
1 no light point c/w switch in attic storage € 100.00
1 no light point c/w switch in water storage attic € 100.00


22k and counting...

salmocab

how many sockets are you getting and that doesn't include any light fittings?
and preliminaries is a suspect item

Risteard81

mapera wrote: »

Smoke / Detectors 450.00

You told us these were €2,000 earlier?

Risteard81

Apologies. I have just found the discrepancy under the extras.

mapera

General Services (Approx 35 double sockets).
Lighting wiring 13 pendant lights and 40 down lights. 3-4 external lights.

2011

Mode note: In the interest of balance I have sent a PM to the OP asking a few pertinent questions.

If the OP replies I will post the answers here and reopen the thread.

Regards,
2011

2011

Here is my PM along with mapera's responses (answers shown in bold text):


Hi,

It would seem that you are being overcharged, however in the interest of balance we require a few pertinent facts. I would like to post your responses to these questions before reopening the thread. I hope you understand.

1) You state that "There was a PC sum in the contract, but that is not an agreed price". How much was the PC sum and who calculated it?

PC Sum of 17k calculated by architect / builder QS





2) Who are you employing to look after your interests and project managing the job? The architect or the builder or both?


I have employed the architect to do that. The builder is recommended by / connected to the architect.




3) You state that "The subcontractor was employed by the architect & builder to start". Which one of them actually employed the subcontractor (electrical contractor)?


He was selected by the architect, but technically the builder is paying him as I am paying the builder.




4) Who instructed the electrical contractor to start?


Architect.




5) Did the electrical contractor agree to the PC sum at any stage? Was he even shown it before starting?


I do not know, I did not share with him the PC Sum.




6) Quantities are missing for most items in this post. Example:


Quote:
General Services - power outlets 3,040.00
How many power outlets?


Quote:
Extract fan wiring c/w isolators - ductwork by others 750.00
How many extract fans? Are these bathroom fans?
Please advise on quantities for most / all.


I think i did answer this in a subsequent post. 4 fans.




7) Who is the Project Manager? -Is it the builder, the architect or is it you?


The PM role is a little "lose". It is supposed to be the architect, but I am not seeing a schedule, or estimations. I am just seeing a completion date.

Honestly, I rushed this a little. My wife is due in 6 weeks and when the architect said we can quote for the build also, I was thinking there could be an economy here, but realistically it has created at least a perceived conflict of interest.

I don't mind if you want to keep the thread closed at this stage, or even remove it. As I say I have resolved the issue with the electrician, and there was no such issue with the plumbing works. I do feel if left unchecked the electrics would have been up towards the 25k mark and after discussion it is now 18,6k. Still a fair price for him, but there have been a few additions.

Anyhow, thanks for the assistance, appreciate the guidance.



It has been known for an electrical contractor to come in with a price and for other parties (such as a builder or architect) to add on their "slice of the action".

Normally a PM (Project Manager) is employed for a build such as this. The PM is frequently but not always the architect, it can also be the builder. It is generally best if the builder and architect are not partners / part of the same company as this can present a conflict of interest. Generally the PM or a QS (Quantity Surveyor) the PM employs is responsible for managing the budget.

PMs are paid (handsomely) to act in the best interests of the client. If you have employed a PM I would think that he / she has some tough questions to answer.

Generally it is the PM's responsibility to:

1) Ensure that the client does not get overcharged / ripped off.

2) Approve all payments to contractors and subcontractors ensuring that they get paid in a timely manner as various milestones are reached.

3) To price all costs and calculate PC sums.

4) To review all quotations.

5) When a large quotation (like €22k) comes in to get at least 3 separate quotations.

6) To review quotes for all extras.

7) Not to permit anyone to start work without agreeing a price / schedule of rates.

That way the job has a reasonable chance of finishing on schedule and within budget.

When you have answered the above questions I will unlock the thread.

Best of luck with your build.


Regards,

2011

2011

Mod note: No mentioning of names of individuals or companies or information that can help to identify anyone.

Regards,

2011

2011

I think that post #24 illustrates that there are two sides to every story.

It is also important to understand that project managers and architects don't always do their jobs properly or look after the client's best interest.

mapera

Thanks for the guidance 2011. Lesson learned!

Sleeper12

Mapera good luck with the baby in a few weeks. He / she will make all this stress worthwhile.

2011

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Mapera good luck with the baby in a few weeks. He / she will make all this stress worthwhile.

Well said.
This puts it all into perspective.