Tesla Model 3

cros13

They are improving quite rapidly.

For the first two years Model S had a good few issues with build quality, they pretty much had it figured out by last year.

Then the Model X came along with it's complex doors and panelwork. For a good while on the same line as the Model S. Everything went a little awry again.

If they'd been making one standard model of car they'd have got everything nailed down by now, but they are pushing ~20 modifications a week per model into the production line which complicates things further.

Peter Hochholdinger (VP Production, Ex-Audi) and Anders Bell (Head of Interiors, Ex-Volvo) both joined last year and are tasked with sorting it out.

Oafley Jones

cros13 wrote: »

They are improving quite rapidly.

For the first two years Model S had a good few issues with build quality, they pretty much had it figured out by last year.

Then the Model X came along with it's complex doors and panelwork. For a good while on the same line as the Model S. Everything went a little awry again.

If they'd been making one standard model of car they'd have got everything nailed down by now, but they are pushing ~20 modifications a week per model into the production line which complicates things further.

Peter Hochholdinger (VP Production, Ex-Audi) and Anders Bell (Head of Interiors, Ex-Volvo) both joined last year and are tasked with sorting it out.

They're still having issues with the S and those hand built Xs QC was woeful. This is one of the more flagged videos; with his build from September 2016... he's not alone though. Also, hiring from Audi doesn't fill me with confidence. The VAG group are serial offenders in regard to quality issues, with Audi being amongst the worst.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM5z0dW60KE

n97 mini

Oafley Jones wrote: »

The VAG group are serial offenders in regard to quality issues, with Audi being amongst the worst.

I'm glad someone else said that. A bit startled to see people equating German makes in general with quality!

I would expect a Tesla to in time to be one of the best built. No doubt they're already looking beyond Lexus (which is ahead of any German make).

I don't know about that , all the Audi's my brother had were amazingly well built, A5 , A4 , A6 and back to A4. From 2008-142. Not a single issue, rattle except from a woeful Sub speaker in the 142 A4 which looked like it cost about 50 cent.

n97 mini

The doors might close with a reassuring clunk, but diesels in particular regularly suffer major failures. I don't equate quality with door clunks but rather how often I've to get something fixed.

I stand corrected, apologies. He had an issue with a 2004 Multitronic A4, the Multitronic was repaired. All the Audi's since were new with 0 issues.

Perhaps higher mileage would reveal issues, but so far he has had none with the newer Gen Audi's.

secman

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Is it the new showroom being built on the site of the old Atlas premises in Sandyford opposite the Beacon?

No that is the new Spirit Volvo showrooms

cros13

Oafley Jones wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM5z0dW60KE

In fairness, Tesla flew out an engineer and fixed the issue to MKBHD's satisfaction. Issue was a contaminant on one of the control boards for the power steering.

HandsomeDan

New a4 looks amazing. Would hands down have one over one of these dork mobiles.

Mod note - banned for not loving EVs

bk

cros13 wrote: »

In fairness, Tesla flew out an engineer and fixed the issue to MKBHD's satisfaction. Issue was a contaminant on one of the control boards for the power steering.

Yes Tesla handled it very well, but this issue had to hurt!

For those of you who don't watch youtube, MKBHD is probably the number one reviewer of tech gadgets (mostly smartphones, tablets, laptops, etc.) on youtube.

His videos are great, filmed at a very high quality and he comes across as a very nice and sincere guy who gives pretty balanced reviews. He was super pyshced about getting a Tesla and had done lots of great detailed videos about it when he got it. So it is some seriously bad publicity for Tesla, specially with the younger demographic.

Donnelly117

HandsomeDan wrote: »

New a4 looks amazing. Would hands down have one over one of these dork mobiles.

The new a4 looks like every other audi produced in the last 10 years... Audi have seriously fallen behind compared to the other German manufacturers.

They don't look too bad to me and I really like their interiors.

eeguy

Deleted User wrote: »

They don't look too bad to me and I really like their interiors.

Audi are a great looking car, but they've always played it very safe with their styling, resulting a line up that's more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Yes but they don't age as bad as other cars either with their oddball looks.

BoatMad

bk wrote: »

Yes Tesla handled it very well, but this issue had to hurt!

For those of you who don't watch youtube, MKBHD is probably the number one reviewer of tech gadgets (mostly smartphones, tablets, laptops, etc.) on youtube.

His videos are great, filmed at a very high quality and he comes across as a very nice and sincere guy who gives pretty balanced reviews. He was super pyshced about getting a Tesla and had done lots of great detailed videos about it when he got it. So it is some seriously bad publicity for Tesla, specially with the younger demographic.

Tesal have actually had a terrible service record with the Model S, its all been hidden and customers kept happy by extraordinary service response , i.e. flying engineers around etc. But the underlying record remains. A mass market car like the Model 3 will require far greater care inits engineering to be reliable, as that type of service response will not be possible.

I do believe Tesla have resolved many quality issues with their cars and they are much more reliable now.

cros13

BoatMad wrote: »

Tesal have actually had a terrible service record with the Model S

It really has got a lot better. They've had a big focus on quietly simplifying the Model S design and making it more manufacturable. A lot of the early flaws have been corrected by several iterations of the original design or completely redesigned components. Most of the issues were motor, coolant system or door handle mechanism related, and in almost all cases these components were replaced pre-emptively in affected vehicles before an issue occurred.

BoatMad wrote: »

A mass market car like the Model 3 will require far greater care inits engineering to be reliable, as that type of service response will not be possible.

Very true. They need a massive build-out of service centers.

eeguy

cros13 wrote: »

Very true. They need a massive build-out of service centers.

Is there any info from Nissan or Tesla comparing their electric vs ICE when it comes to servicing?

cros13

eeguy wrote: »

Is there any info from Nissan or Tesla comparing their electric vs ICE when it comes to servicing?

Not really. All Tesla servicing is entirely optional and not doing it does not impact their warranty. Nissan requires an annual inspection to keep up the 8 year powertrain warranty.

The reason Tesla have to build out service centers is mainly for repairs not regular servicing. Although they do have occasional coolant replacements every 80,000km and A/C system / brake fluid every two years.

You can check out the Leaf maintainence schedule here:
https://owners.nissanusa.com/content/techpub/ManualsAndGuides/LEAF/2015/2015-LEAF-service-maintenance-guide.pdf

It's basically nothing but looking to see if anything's broken, rotating the tires and changing the pollen filter... and maybe a little brake fluid until coolant replacement at 15 Years / 200,000km.

My Leafs have never had an issue (bar a seat belt sensor that went on the fritz) and my i3 is having it's first service this month, two years and over 100,000km since I picked it up.

Scottie99

Latest info on Model3
https://youtu.be/hBel7v4tEXI

unkel

So you no longer get free electricity from Tesla. But you do get 400kWh per year for free

That's worth about €30

Wow, so generous of Tesla :rolleyes:

Sabre Man

unkel wrote: »

So you no longer get free electricity from Tesla. But you do get 400kWh per year for free

That's worth about €30

Wow, so generous of Tesla :rolleyes:

They're not doing it because they're stringy but to deter people hogging the superchargers. Cars sold with supercharging included will be exempt.

eeguy

unkel wrote: »

So you no longer get free electricity from Tesla. But you do get 400kWh per year for free

That's worth about €30

Wow, so generous of Tesla :rolleyes:

Yeah, but it's about 2000km of travel, which in an ICE car could cost you €200

I like the idea where you start to pay at a higher rate AFTER the battery is charged, as an incentive for you to move your car.

Scottie99

The latest Model3 Owners Club episode..

https://youtu.be/OBvj9iE3x-M

unkel

unkel wrote: »

a net price to the customer of €44k...

My mate in NL pointed out that all Tesla Model S for the EU are assembled in Tilburg, NL. He reckons the Model 3 will be assembled there too. This of course means that there are no import duties, which is great news!

Here is my revised calculation:

VRT is based on the OMSP - usually about 92% of the RRP, specified by the importer.

So say value of the car is €33.5k (USD 35k - assuming there will be no charge for RHD conversion). So this is the base price of the car.

Another assumption is you get no discount (it will be a desirable model) but Tesla won't be mean to add any other delivery costs

A bit of fiddling in excel will give you a RRP of €49k (before subsidies), so OMSP (92%) of €45k hence VRT (14%) of €6.3k and VAT (RRP includes 23%) of €9.2k

€5k subsidy and €5k discount on VRT mean a net price to the customer of €39k...

unkel

Now that imho makes a massive difference. It's still a lot of money compared to Leaf (€20k) and Ioniq (€25k), but the Tesla Model 3 can be regarded as a more premium product with a substantially better range. Bring it on!

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Now that imho makes a massive difference. It's still a lot of money compared to Leaf (€20k) and Ioniq (€25k), but the Tesla Model 3 can be regarded as a more premium product with a substantially better range. Bring it on!

Can it though ? the GM Bolt will give it a run for it's money but in cost and performance. Only of course, it won't be sold in right hand drive for this model cycle at least most likely due to the failure of the Volt in the U.K. GM think that the Bolt might be the same low seller.

unkel

Not sure what your point is, Mad_Lad? Not much point in discussing vehicles that won't be available here and do you not expect the Model 3 to be the new (relatively) low cost benchmark? Obviously far more expensive than entry level EV cars though.

Just watched Bjørn Nyland's winter test drive of the Ioniq again (this time in full) and interestingly enough he categorises EVs by generation. First attempts are 1G, Leaf, i3, e-Golf etc. are 2G, the Ioniq is 2.5G and for sure the Model 3 will be 3G.

unkel

unkel wrote: »

Not sure what your point is, Mad_Lad? Not much point in discussing vehicles that won't be available here and do you not expect the Model 3 to be the new (relatively) low cost benchmark? Obviously far more expensive than entry level EV cars though.

Yes the Model 3 will probably be more expensive than the Bolt, but the bolt will offer similar range and performance.

I'm sure the Model 3 will have more gadgets and at a good price too.

I didn't think there was a limit of vehicles to discuss ?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes the Model 3 will probably be more expensive than the Bolt, but the bolt will offer similar range and performance.

I'm not so sure about that. The Bolt is almost $8000 MORE expensive in the US than the promised price for the Model 3. Tesla has repeatedly stated the $30k Model 3 base price is ex-incentives and the base Bolt is ~$38k ex-incentives.

We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Who's betting non deposit holders won't see it until 2019 or after ?

I wouldn't put a deposit down on something I haven't seen + my lease is up in January so I'm hoping Nissan get the finger out with Gen II Leaf.

I'd really like a larger EV, 4x4 or Estate, keep dreaming......

eeguy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Who's betting non deposit holders won't see it until 2019 or after ?

I wouldn't put a deposit down on something I haven't seen + my lease is up in January so I'm hoping Nissan get the finger out with Gen II Leaf.

I wouldn't buy a brand new car that uses brand new technology built on a brand new assembly line.
Give them a year to work the bugs out.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

We'll have to wait and see I suppose.

Who's betting non deposit holders won't see it until 2019 or after ?

I wouldn't put a deposit down on something I haven't seen + my lease is up in January so I'm hoping Nissan get the finger out with Gen II Leaf.

I'd really like a larger EV, 4x4 or Estate, keep dreaming......

Most of your posts seem very Leaf focused and un'erred in the cause to get the next leaf. Are you tied to Nissan specifically or is there a reason you are not looking at models like Iconiq and 2nd Gen Zoe ?

Not tied to anything whatsoever nor am I Leaf biased , the fact I mentioned leaf is because I am keen to see the new model and if it's not going to be available in January or very soon after then I'll definitely consider the ioniq , absolutely , or whatever is around in a year that I like.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Who's betting non deposit holders won't see it until 2019 or after ?

Barring pixies inhabiting the factory and doubling output, that's pretty much certain.

Production is due to start this year... maybe in the low tens of thousands of units out the door, then 100k - 200k production in 2018. Close to 500,000 deposit holders have money down already.

Unless you are putting a deposit down this year or buying a fully loaded top spec car, I wouldn't see you getting a model 3 this side of Q3/4 2019 or Q1 2020.

unkel

cros13 wrote: »

Tesla has repeatedly stated the $30k Model 3 base price is ex-incentives

It's $35k

Linky

cros13 wrote: »

the base Bolt is ~$38k ex-incentives.

$37.5k

Linky

Using my calculation that means it will be about €42.5k here. Is it just me or does this car not look premium at all? A lot of money...

bk

unkel wrote: »

Using my calculation that means it will be about €42.5k here. Is it just me or does this car not look premium at all? A lot of money...

While certainly not in the same class as a true high end Merc, etc. I do think it looks about the same as a BMW 3 Series, which would also be about the same price category.

However I think the almost all glass roof could really set it apart and end up making the likes of the BMW 3 series look pretty poor by comparison.

RedorDead

unkel wrote: »

A bit of fiddling in excel will give you a RRP of €49k (before subsidies), so OMSP (92%) of €45k hence VRT (14%) of €6.3k and VAT (RRP includes 23%) of €9.2k

€5k subsidy and €5k discount on VRT mean a net price to the customer of €39k...

Id be shocked but pleasantly surprised if this thing costs less than 40k when grants are removed. Any idea when pricing is due to be released? Is it released in other countries?

Sabre Man

RedorDead wrote: »

Id be shocked but pleasantly surprised if this thing costs less than 40k when grants are removed. Any idea when pricing is due to be released? Is it released in other countries?

No prices have been released yet. Maybe they'll tell us when they reveal the final car later this year.

unkel

RedorDead wrote: »

Id be shocked but pleasantly surprised if this thing costs less than 40k when grants are removed. Any idea when pricing is due to be released? Is it released in other countries?

It would be €49k without grants. That's pretty bad compared to $35k in the US

35 K USD = 32,600 Euro's

+ 23% VAT = 40,100

+ vrt at lowest level A1 14% costing 5,614

= total 45,714 excluding import duty likely another few K + conversion to right hand drive ? another few K

subtract 10 K for vrt relief and grant = 35,714 , likely 37K on the road.

23 % VAT is a complete rip off, Government are thieves !

The Rooster

Deleted User wrote: »

23 % VAT is a complete rip off, Government are thieves !

VAT rate isn't too much out of line with the rest of the EU. Actually 6 countries have 25% or 24% and another 2 have 23%.

The VRT is where new car buyers in Ireland or car importers into Ireland are getting rightly stung.

23% is a rip off no matter where it is, if other countries are ripping off their citizens doesn't make it right either.

Indricotherium

Deleted User wrote: »

23% is a rip off no matter where it is, if other countries are ripping off their citizens doesn't make it right either.

People driving cars particularly cars directly powered by fossil fuels costs the state a fortune, so it is only right that they are taxed.

Hardly a rip off.

It's not as if you are getting nothing back for it.

The Rooster

Deleted User wrote: »

23% is a rip off no matter where it is, if other countries are ripping off their citizens doesn't make it right either.

Ha!

So would it be hospitals or schools you'd cut back on to abolish VAT?

Indricotherium

The Rooster wrote: »

Ha!

So would it be hospitals or schools you'd cut back on to abolish VAT?

I'm sure some example of a few €1000 wasted will now be trotted out as a way of justifying annihilating the states income.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

35 K USD = 32,600 Euro's

+ 23% VAT = 40,100

+ vrt at lowest level A1 14% costing 5,614

= total 45,714 excluding import duty likely another few K + conversion to right hand drive ? another few K

subtract 10 K for vrt relief and grant = 35,714 , likely 37K on the road.

23 % VAT is a complete rip off, Government are thieves !

Worse. The VAT is added last, to everything before!

unkel

The calculation doesn't work like that, Mad_Lad. See my examples. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty confident that it works like I showed. We had a big discussion about how this calculation worked back when the VRT system changed in 2008.

Scottie99

The Rooster wrote: »

Ha!

So would it be hospitals or schools you'd cut back on to abolish VAT?

We're meant to encourage EVs. I'd say reduce their "costs" and increase VRT/VAT on fossil cars. There's the savings 😜👍

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

Worse. The VAT is added last, to everything before!

You're right, I got confused.