Tesla Model 3

Sabre Man

One thing that makes EVs like Tesla inherently safer than ICE cars is the skateboard battery.

Take a look at this to see why:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Acg8brdf8o

I read an article about a crash like this into a pole recently but now I can't find it. I think it was a Model 3.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That's taking a set of results and changing the searchh criteria to suit an arguement.....it other words a load of bulls**t


They picked freeway miles only which the chance of an accident is less than any other road so that is skewed already. Why not all roads? if they are so safe after all?



Second article is just quoting what Tesla are saying. No evidenece at all.



Again I say I don't have a problem with Tesla, would buy one. Some people really need to strat looking past the PR bull

Are you saying that an ICE car has the same centre of gravity as a EV? Which is more likely to flip? Are you saying that in a head in collision an EV engine is as likely to come in to the cabin as an ICE engine ?
There’s many reasons why they are safer that’s before you take onboard autopilot

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

Are you saying that an ICE car has the same centre of gravity as a EV? Which is more likely to flip? Are you saying that in a head in collision an EV engine is as likely to come in to the cabin as an ICE engine ?
There’s many reasons why they are safer that’s before you take onboard autopilot

Keep digging.....you will come out at some stage with a real fact.

bertie4evr

ted1 wrote: »

Are you saying that an ICE car has the same centre of gravity as a EV? Which is more likely to flip? Are you saying that in a head in collision an EV engine is as likely to come in to the cabin as an ICE engine ?
There’s many reasons why they are safer that’s before you take onboard autopilot

We’re saying the statistics in here can’t show any safety advantage.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Keep digging.....you will come out at some stage with a real fact.

Are you going to argue with the nhtas an independent government body ?
https://www.nhtsa.gov/vehicle/2018/TESLA/MODEL%2525203/4%252520DR/RWD#safety-ratings-side

aliveandkicking

A bit of Saturday lunchtime fact checking for Mr VWfan and Mr Tesla hater.

Fact 1: Tesla Model 3 achieved the lowest probability of injury score of any car ever tested by the US Government.

Note this is nothing to do with autopilot and nothing to do with the Tesla PR machine, this is your actual probability of sustaining a serious injury in the event of a crash as tested by the US government.

The problem with the argument that other cars get a 5 star rating too so they're just as good is the simple fact that it isn't true. All cars that achieve a score below a certain threshold get a 5 star rating. Just one example of many is the Model 3 Vs the new Toyota Camry. Both are 5 star cars, however in the Toyota you have a 35%+ greater chance of sustaining a serious injury than in the Tesla.

See the chart below. (This is cars tested in 2018 only which is why the other Tesla's aren't in it)



This other chart below shows a comparison of the top 50 safest cars in test since 2011 showing the three Tesla's at the top although it doesn't list the other cars by name.

Shefwedfan

Take a step back Tesla fanboys

The original question was about a rating that Tesla made up, it is not possible. So yes that is PR bulls**t, or are you going to argue that?

Second this is the quote
"It’s safer. Less deaths per km travelled and also safer fir people being hit."

Nobody has any idea how safe Tesla is and less deaths per km traveled because at the moment they have what percentage of the World market? 0.0001% maybe?

So how can anyone say they are safer? a test on a couple of cars they spent 12 months making, ensuring the quality was the best, that is not real World results. How about doing the same test on the 5k cars that came out the week they pushed everyone to hit their targets. See how safe those 5,000 cars are.

It's PR bulls**t. Come back when the cars are on the road in high numbers and some real results and then we can discuss it. So far the only thing tesla cars on the road have shown is poor build quality. Not really a safe car with bits falling off and failing

Every single one of your charts have the same thing in common

PROBABILITY

Oh yeah, your petty little childish insults, grow up.

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Second this is the quote
"It’s safer. Less deaths per km travelled and also safer fir people being hit."

Nobody has any idea how safe Tesla is and less deaths per km traveled because at the moment they have what percentage of the World market? 0.0001% maybe?

Listen up VW fan boy. It’s very simple to see how safe they are per km travelled.

They’ve racked up over a billion km.

You simple count up the accidents and deaths And divide it by km covered. Do the same for others.
You clearly don’t understand stats.

Pkiernan

Another reason the Tesla 3 is so safe here is that they're virtually impossible to buy !

Johnboy1951

ted1 wrote: »

Listen up VW fan boy. It’s very simple to see how safe they are per km travelled.

They’ve racked up over a billion km.

You simple count up the accidents and deaths And divide it by km covered. Do the same for others.
You clearly don’t understand stats.

Would it be true to say that the more of a certain type of vehicle is being driven on the road, the more likely that type of vehicle will be in an accident? Or not?

So if one vehicle were to do one billion miles, as opposed to 100,000 clocking up one billion miles between them, is there likely to be any difference in the accident stats for that type of vehicle?

What would the stats indicate?

I would expect that with one driver doing all the mileage on the one hand, and 100,000 drivers doing the driving on the other hand, that needs to be taken into account when doing calculations.

None of the above takes from my view that all those drivers are likely to receive less severe injuries in such accidents if they are driving a Tesla.
(BTW, I don't like the look of the vehicle, and have no need for such performance )

Shefwedfan

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Would it be true to say that the more of a certain type of vehicle is being driven on the road, the more likely that type of vehicle will be in an accident? Or not?

So if one vehicle were to do one billion miles, as opposed to 100,000 clocking up one billion miles between them, is there likely to be any difference in the accident stats for that type of vehicle?

What would the stats indicate?

I would expect that with one driver doing all the mileage on the one hand, and 100,000 drivers doing the driving on the other hand, that needs to be taken into account when doing calculations.

Your talking sense

Expect childish insults to follow

peposhi

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Take a step back Tesla fanboys

The original question was about a rating that Tesla made up, it is not possible. So yes that is PR bulls**t, or are you going to argue that?

Second this is the quote
"It’s safer. Less deaths per km travelled and also safer fir people being hit."

Nobody has any idea how safe Tesla is and less deaths per km traveled because at the moment they have what percentage of the World market? 0.0001% maybe?

So how can anyone say they are safer? a test on a couple of cars they spent 12 months making, ensuring the quality was the best, that is not real World results. How about doing the same test on the 5k cars that came out the week they pushed everyone to hit their targets. See how safe those 5,000 cars are.

It's PR bulls**t. Come back when the cars are on the road in high numbers and some real results and then we can discuss it. So far the only thing tesla cars on the road have shown is poor build quality. Not really a safe car with bits falling off and failing

Every single one of your charts have the same thing in common

PROBABILITY

Oh yeah, your petty little childish insults, grow up.

Well, would you not think there’s very little difference between probability and reality since the crash test is very serious? All cars were tested the same way. Is not as if TM3 was given a shoulder to pass with better result?
And this is not connected with how many crashes or deaths you’d have per x amount of km you have done in it. It’s about any single serious crash that you may get involved and the likelihood to suffer leathal injuries...

ted1

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Would it be true to say that the more of a certain type of vehicle is being driven on the road, the more likely that type of vehicle will be in an accident? Or not?

So if one vehicle were to do one billion miles, as opposed to 100,000 clocking up one billion miles between them, is there likely to be any difference in the accident stats for that type of vehicle?

What would the stats indicate?

I would expect that with one driver doing all the mileage on the one hand, and 100,000 drivers doing the driving on the other hand, that needs to be taken into account when doing calculations.

None of the above takes from my view that all those drivers are likely to receive less severe injuries in such accidents if they are driving a Tesla.
(BTW, I don't like the look of the vehicle, and have no need for such performance )

When you average things out the it should for the whole it should similar enough. If you ever worked in manufacturing you’ll see that sample sizes are pretty reliable. A 3% failure rate of 10 products ramps up to 3% failure rate of 1,000,000 products

Shefwedfan

peposhi wrote: »

Well, would you not think there’s very little difference between probability and reality since the crash test is very serious? All cars were tested the same way. Is not as if TM3 was given a shoulder to pass with better result?
And this is not connected with how many crashes or deaths you’d have per x amount of km you have done in it. It’s about any single serious crash that you may get involved and the likelihood to suffer leathal injuries...

Tesla has 200k cars on the road. By 2023 they are projecting the massive 1 million cars :P
In the US alone their is 264 million cars.



You, I, nobody has any idea of the safety records of Tesla because

A. There is a tiny amount of them on the road
B. They are only on the road a short time


How can you compare them to BMW, Ford, Merc, Volvo, VW etc etc etc who for years have provided safe cars which have driven trillions of miles for every sort of man/woman or child in the World.

Tesla could be a super safe car, great if it is but at the moment nobody has the data to back that up...


P.S if everyone bought car based on safety then Volvo would be a lot bigger than they are

catharsis

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Tesla has 200k cars on the road. By 2023 they are projecting the massive 1 million cars :P
In the US alone their is 264 million cars.



You, I, nobody has any idea of the safety records of Tesla because

A. There is a tiny amount of them on the road
B. They are only on the road a short time


How can you compare them to BMW, Ford, Merc, Volvo, VW etc etc etc who for years have provided safe cars which have driven trillions of miles for every sort of man/woman or child in the World.

Tesla could be a super safe car, great if it is but at the moment nobody has the data to back that up...


P.S if everyone bought car based on safety then Volvo would be a lot bigger than they are

Just to add a few facts to the discussion.

EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for Miodel S 82%
EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for Nissan Leaf 93%

and to add ICE cars to the discussion.

EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for XC-60 98%

Johnboy1951

ted1 wrote: »

When you average things out the it should for the whole it should similar enough. If you ever worked in manufacturing you’ll see that sample sizes are pretty reliable. A 3% failure rate of 10 products ramps up to 3% failure rate of 1,000,000 products

That will be true of an automated production line, but what happens when it is a man-powered production line?
You get lots of variables added due to personal circumstances each day, do you not?
Would that not equate to behaviours of different drivers with different skill sets?
In that case the accident figures would be expected to rise would they not (as in failure rates of the production lines)?

All I am asking about really is the expected influence of a cross section of drivers (and conditions) on the 'failure'/accident rate - maybe this could be compared to autonomous driving being akin to an automated production line.

super_sweeney

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

That will be true of an automated production line, but what happens when it is a man-powered production line?
You get lots of variables added due to personal circumstances each day, do you not?
Would that not equate to behaviours of different drivers with different skill sets?
In that case the accident figures would be expected to rise would they not (as in failure rates of the production lines)?

All I am asking about really is the expected influence of a cross section of drivers (and conditions) on the 'failure'/accident rate - maybe this could be compared to autonomous driving being akin to an automated production line.

Kinda true.. having come from manufacturing industry specifically the automotive one where it was heavily operator dependent. Yes when the numbers are super super low you do see a tiny variance but even this starts to average out pretty quick and you will see a trend there within quite a tight tolerance. So yes what your saying is true in that they dont manufacture as many cars but its still a large scale of production and the trend is there and is able to be compared to other manufactures. Though and this is the big point as the assembly matures what you typically see is failures rates tend to decrease and your quality of product actually increases so you could argue for any manufacture "tesla,bmw, ford" that as their product matures their cars should get safer.

What i would like to throw into the mix regarding the safety point of view here is people are arguing that tesla has done less miles that others so of course there safety/km driven is lower. Well it could also be in fact higher. What happens if you happened to have a high volume of accidents for the first billion km. then you could say your safety rating is higher! But as mentioned above there is a trend and I am sure if you check it along as someone mentioned the relevant sample points. SAy 10k, 100k,1000k, 10000k, ect you should see the same trend and very little variance and you could compare this to other manufactures and thus get compared data so even tho merc has 500 times more miles at sample points 10k, 100k,1000k, 10000k, miles it had so many accidents per km for this particular model.

The other point someone made was that they focused only on 1 car for 12 months ect ect of course its going to be so safe ect. Well you could argue the counter VW have been perfecting the golf for how many years now and a company so fresh is able to compete?

not sticking up for Tesla just saying bear in mind there are both sides of the argument and also the companies will only advertise what they want you to hear. No one wants to advertise 10th Safest car per/km . I think tesla have done a great job at re-juvinating the industry and creating great competition but I dont think they have quite earned the crown they are trying wear just yet.

Shefwedfan

Yes their is both sides of the arguement but I don’t see any other car company making up a new rating in safety standard to say they are the safest car ever......

If they want to make a bold statement like that then prove it, the reality is they can’t because they are too young a company and too small a market share.....

So as I said at the start, it’s PR exactly the same as Toyota and self charging.....

Peatys

Good, that's that sorted.

My deposit still says early 2019.



I won't be in the market till my current car is fully written off the books in feb 2020.. if i get the nod to order whenever in 2019, i wonder can i let a few go ahead, or can i order for a specific delivery date of my choosing?

Shefwedfan

Peatys wrote: »

Good, that's that sorted.

My deposit still says early 2019.



I won't be in the market till my current car is fully written off the books in feb 2020.. if i get the nod to order whenever in 2019, i wonder can i let a few go ahead, or can i order for a specific delivery date of my choosing?

I think most people will say you will be safe till Feb next year


I asked my lease company and they don't expect availablity till summer 2020 at best

super_sweeney

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I think most people will say you will be safe till Feb next year


I asked my lease company and they don't expect availablity till summer 2020 at best

Wow thats good to know. Any idea what the BIK would be like on one? Also fingers crossed they sort out the Chargers in Ireland by then.

Really interested in getting an EV Tesla have the nicest one I have seen but still doesnt fully take my fancy. Really waiting to see what VW,Audi and the rest bring to the table....

Peatys

super_sweeney wrote: »

Wow thats good to know. Any idea what the BIK would be like on one? Also fingers crossed they sort out the Chargers in Ireland by then.

Really interested in getting an EV Tesla have the nicest one I have seen but still doesnt fully take my fancy. Really waiting to see what VW,Audi and the rest bring to the table....

Edit0% bik on first 50k.

Cheers for the info lads, accountant should have told me that!

slave1

Peatys wrote: »

0% bik.

Sorry but not accurate, in Budget 2019, the Minister put a cap of €50,000 on the original market value of a vehicle that qualifies for this tax rate. Any amount over the €50,000 limit will incur BIK as normal so if your landed/configured M3 is above the limit you will be subject to some degree of BIK

ELM327

Peatys wrote: »

0% bik on the first 50k

fyp

Shefwedfan

super_sweeney wrote: »

Wow thats good to know. Any idea what the BIK would be like on one? Also fingers crossed they sort out the Chargers in Ireland by then.

Really interested in getting an EV Tesla have the nicest one I have seen but still doesnt fully take my fancy. Really waiting to see what VW,Audi and the rest bring to the table....

No idea....as no idea on price. As posted above the 50k limit will be interesting.



I don't expect the "cheap" Model 3 to be available so it will depend on what they have to offer. I have a feeling the Model 3 will be above the 50k clip

Peatys

ELM327 wrote: »

fyp

Cheers for that

Nedved85

Shefwedfan wrote: »

No idea....as no idea on price. As posted above the 50k limit will be interesting.



I don't expect the "cheap" Model 3 to be available so it will depend on what they have to offer. I have a feeling the Model 3 will be above the 50k clip

Surely the BIK on say €5k ish would be minimal and completely offset by the fuel savings made..

Shefwedfan

Nedved85 wrote: »

Surely the BIK on say €5k ish would be minimal and completely offset by the fuel savings made..

Depends if you are comparing to a fuel based car or another electric car


Hopefully at the same time as the Model 3 arrives other providers will have options available as well. So will a 50+k Model 3 be the best option if you compare to other manufacturers?

professore

ted1 wrote: »

When you average things out the it should for the whole it should similar enough. If you ever worked in manufacturing you’ll see that sample sizes are pretty reliable. A 3% failure rate of 10 products ramps up to 3% failure rate of 1,000,000 products

Statistically you need a sample size of at least 30 before you can infer anything useful.

Nedved85

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Depends if you are comparing to a fuel based car or another electric car


Hopefully at the same time as the Model 3 arrives other providers will have options available as well. So will a 50+k Model 3 be the best option if you compare to other manufacturers?

Not many options at present if you are using an EV as a company car, assuming the driver is doing a lot of miles.

Kona/eNiro/Model S.

Shefwedfan

Nedved85 wrote: »

Not many options at present if you are using an EV as a company car, assuming the driver is doing a lot of miles.

Kona/eNiro/Model S.

Summer 2020 is when the Model 3 is supposed to become available for the general buyer.....


That's a long time, by then you should have


Kona
eNiro
Model 3
Leaf 60kW
Kia Soul
Mini E
BMW iX3
Honda Urban
VW Neo range(Skoda's/Audi etc)

liamog

I reckon it will only take about 8-12 weeks to clear the RHD backlog.

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Summer 2020 is when the Model 3 is supposed to become available for the general buyer.....


That's a long time, by then you should have
Model 3


VS:


Kona -eNiro -Kia Soul (these are all different iterations of the same car)
Leaf 60kWh (Probably no liquid cooling)
Mini E - BMW iX3 (probably different iterations of the same car)
Honda Urban (sketchy on details but hondas don't sell well here in general, first EU EV for them)
VW Neo range(Skoda's/Audi etc) - Depending on release date and price point this one will be a competitor for model 3, especially under the Audi marque in the premium segment.

So realistically you have 2 or 3 main competitors of which to date one has hit the road so far.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

So realistically you have 2 or 3 main competitors of which to date one has hit the road so far.

I have even less under company car.....


Hyundai and Kia are not allowed :P

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Summer 2020 is when the Model 3 is supposed to become available for the general buyer.....


That's a long time, by then you should have


Kona
eNiro
Model 3
Leaf 60kW
Kia Soul
Mini E
BMW iX3
Honda Urban
VW Neo range(Skoda's/Audi etc)

My orders says early 2019, its Tesla time so I expect long range and performance to be available here in small volume by end of 2019, 100% sure

I am going with medium range hopefully early 2020 will have it

Like for like the Model 3 has no rival besides maybe the I-Pace

Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, VW offerings don't really compare in terms of performance

hatrack

Mike9832 wrote: »

My orders says early 2019, its Tesla time so I expect long range and performance to be available here in small volume by end of 2019, 100% sure

I am going with medium range hopefully early 2020 will have it

Like for like the Model 3 has no rival besides maybe the I-Pace

Kia, Hyundai, Nissan, VW offerings don't really compare in terms of performance

My reservation says the same.

Musk has said AWD and Performance will be available in RHD mid-2019 and seeing as they’re on track to start delivering LHD in Europe by the end of February (in line with revised promises dates) I think mid-2019 is still accurate.

I expect orders to be taken for RHD in June with deliveries August / September for AWD and Performance. MR and SR is anyone’s guess.

catharsis

catharsis wrote: »

Just to add a few facts to the discussion.

EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for Miodel S 82%
EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for Nissan Leaf 93%

and to add ICE cars to the discussion.

EuroNCAP adult driver survivability rating for XC-60 98%

Damn you and your facts. Don't you know this is a place for feelings?

Sabre Man

The first dual Type 2/CCS supercharger has been spotted in the Netherlands. Won't charge other CCS cars.

Mike9832

Tesla to ship 150k Model 3's a year to start with in Feb for Europe

That's gonna wake up German giants, VW/BMW/Mercedes etc

https://electrek.co/2018/12/12/tesla-imodel-3-volume-europe-port/

Tesla only sells 25k combined sales for Model X/S in Europe

600% increase in sales with Model 3

Game on :pac:

Mec-a-nic

Mike9832 wrote: »

Tesla to ship 150k Model 3's a year to start with in Feb for Europe

Don't current Teslas (S, X) arrive into Europe as 'skids' to be 'assembled' in Netherlands to obtain a lower import duty (3% vs 10%)?

Looks like the 3000/week can't do that, so a bump in price due to the duty?

ELM327

Sabre Man wrote: »

The first dual Type 2/CCS supercharger has been spotted in the Netherlands. Won't charge other CCS cars.

Saw that.


The advantage of CCS over say Chademo is that it passes information from the car before the session starts. The SC will be connected to Tesla's backend who will see that the vin is not on the "approved" list and reject it.


The units look very neat to be honest, better than I was expecting. I think down the line they will have an adapter for early cars to use the new cable too and can go back to one cable setup (using the new frankenplug)

hatrack

Mec-a-nic wrote: »

Don't current Teslas (S, X) arrive into Europe as 'skids' to be 'assembled' in Netherlands to obtain a lower import duty (3% vs 10%)?

Looks like the 3000/week can't do that, so a bump in price due to the duty?

Prices have already been announced for a number of European countries so they’re either absorbing the extra cost, have factored it in or will do something to avoid the duty.

Agree it’s hard to see them being able to ‘assemble’ 3,000 a week in Tilburg.

grogi

hatrack wrote: »

Prices have already been announced for a number of European countries so they’re either absorbing the extra cost, have factored it in or will do something to avoid the duty.

Agree it’s hard to see them being able to ‘assemble’ 3,000 a week in Tilburg.

They do factor the duty of 10% into the final price.

josip

hatrack wrote: »

Prices have already been announced for a number of European countries so they’re either absorbing the extra cost, have factored it in or will do something to avoid the duty.

Agree it’s hard to see them being able to ‘assemble’ 3,000 a week in Tilburg.

How big is the difference between a manufacturing assembly line and and assembly assembly line?
Is the time difference factors or orders of magnitude?

Did someone say earlier that all of these cars would have been fully assembled in the US, then disassembled to ship and then reassembled in EU?

Elessar

Seriously looking at replacing my 3 series hybrid with a model 3 sometime in 2020 or 2021 if I can get one.

Were any Irish prices announced? I did see a price of €58k for the long range all wheel but that was for some EU markets.

For anyone interested, here is a charge time calculator for the model 3:

https://leccy.net/cars/tesla_model_3

0-100% in 41 hours from a regular 3 pin!

14 hours from a 32a charger, though most people would be topping up the charge every day or every other day I would think!

Shefwedfan

hatrack wrote: »

Prices have already been announced for a number of European countries so they’re either absorbing the extra cost, have factored it in or will do something to avoid the duty.

Agree it’s hard to see them being able to ‘assemble’ 3,000 a week in Tilburg.

Its a link to electrek who hold shares in Tesla so every article around Tesla is a load of bulls**t to try to increase stock price



They got caught out before and have been made to list on the website they are Tesla shareholder but they hide it


Electrek= Tesla PR machine

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Its a link to electrek who hold shares in Tesla so every article around Tesla is a load of bulls**t to try to increase stock price



They got caught out before and have been made to list on the website they are Tesla shareholder but they hide it


Electrek= Tesla PR machine

Give it a rest VW fanboy

Your always linking electrek articles for VW concept announcements

Tesla sell real long range EVs today

The world leader in EVs

You'll be driving one someday lol 😂

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Its a link to electrek who hold shares in Tesla so every article around Tesla is a load of bulls**t to try to increase stock price



They got caught out before and have been made to list on the website they are Tesla shareholder but they hide it


Electrek= Tesla PR machine

How much shares do they have ? There is having shares and then there is having SHARES.

Shefwedfan

ted1 wrote: »

How much shares do they have ? There is having shares and then there is having SHARES.

Wait a min and I will ring them to ask.....


Sorry they didn't answer

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Give it a rest VW fanboy

Your always linking electrek articles for VW concept announcements

Tesla sell real long range EVs today

The world leader in EVs

You'll be driving one someday lol ��

I might drive one, have always said that


I can tell you I would NEVER buy a Skoda


Cheap mans VW