Tesla Model 3

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Thank god for VW

Those great fellas gonna save us all with 48kWh Neo for 25k

With rapidgate resolved on Leaf 2 I think that is an ideal electric car option


Especially if they get the 60kWh out this year

ewj1978

resolved?
not to go completely off topic but I'm never buying a L40.(or even a L60, unless it has liquid cooling)
I wouldn't call maybe charging @ 25-35kw depending on how hot a day it is or how far I've driven as issue resolved.

Mike9832

ewj1978 wrote: »

resolved?
not to go completely off topic but I'm never buying a L40.(or even a L60, unless it has liquid cooling)
I wouldn't call maybe charging @ 25-35kw depending on how hot a day it is or how far I've driven as issue resolved.

Exactly

Instead of letting the battery fry at 35c or whatever it was , it can now fry at 47c with no issue

Sounds like anything under 50 degrees is actually normal temperature and below 30 degrees is too cool for an optimum performance of Li cells. Above 60 degrees should be avoided all all costs

I wouldn't worry about it unless you're planning to keep the battery at above 50 degrees every day.

hatrack

There’s a really interesting spreadsheet being maintained for European orders. Uses invoice numbers to give an indication of total order numbers. Total number is just under 15,000 at the moment.

Seems quite low, appears lots of people waiting for cheaper versions to become available.

Makes me optimistic we might get to order RHD long range AWD and Performance in next four to five months with deliveries starting July / August.

Link is here: http://bit.ly/M3Orders

Mike9832

hatrack wrote: »

There’s a really interesting spreadsheet being maintained for European orders. Uses invoice numbers to give an indication of total order numbers. Total number is just under 15,000 at the moment.

Seems quite low, appears lots of people waiting for cheaper versions to become available.

Makes me optimistic we might get to order RHD long range AWD and Performance in next four to five months with deliveries starting July / August.

Link is here: http://bit.ly/M3Orders

It is very low

150, 000 reservations for Europe at one point

They will won't be able to hold off on SR Model much longer in US and Europe

Window of opportunity is closing in by the day with VW, Koreans etc seemingly able to make 35k long range EVs without issue

Ev's share 80-90% of parts with ICE vehicles, autogiants have an incredible advantage here and big battery makers given 24 month notice can make as many batteries as they need, for a price not far off what Tesla/Panasonic are able to do too

With all the investment in gigafactories, charging networks etc Tesla could be in deep **** if interest wanes and buyers flock to VW etc

Its a risky strategy expanding so quickly

All the while the biggest autogiant Toyota have no BEV and watching with interest, knowing with 50 hybrid models and big experience in electrification they can jump in anytime, just need to give battery giants 24 months notice for battery supply

Its a very interesting industry now

Real poker face stuff

Germans playing both sides

Tesla all in

Toyota holding its cards

Renault alliance holding its CEO in hostage to

Koreans plotting

Yanks going out of business, unwilling to change

unkel

Haha, I like the poker analogy

Mike9832 wrote: »

Toyota holding its cards

And.. they're folding

ted1

How many of the 150,000 were actually invited to order ?

ELM327

ted1 wrote: »

How many of the 150,000 were actually invited to order ?

No one in Ireland or UK for sure.

There's a massive anti tesla bias online a lot of the time, I don't understand it myself.

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I like the poker analogy



And.. they're folding

Toyota folded a long time ago.
Sorry, self folded. What a (h2)fool I am to omit that.

hatrack

ted1 wrote: »

How many of the 150,000 were actually invited to order ?

Open the spreadsheet, shows all countries where orders have been submitted.

Anyone can order, not just reservation holders.

cnocbui

unkel wrote: »

Haha, I like the poker analogy



And.. they're folding

Folding is being at the forefront of solid state battery research worldwide - by a wide margin?

Maybe they realise that Li-ion batteries suck as a vehicle power source.

Idbatterim

those ID look seriously class! Its very interesting seeing how this will all pan out, Tesla need to make hay while the sun shines, that for sure. When the automotive giant VW releases all these EV models, Tesla would want to majorly have their act together regarding quality control and they need to start selling them in their droves asap!

BKtje

I got an email from Tesla Switzerland last night inviting me to order my Model 3 Long range or Performance for delivery in march (Financing at 3.9% offered).

While I'm very tempted, I unfortunately live (like a lot of people who live in mainland europe) in an apartment complex without the ability to charge the car at home forcing me to rely on the Tesla and public charging networks. While Switzerland is well equipped with public charging points they are quite expensive.

For my kilometrage per year charging on the home network, the car would almost pay for itself. Even using the supercharger network to mostly charge the car would be doable but using the other public charging points just costs too much to make it viable for me. For those interested i worked out the per km cost below.

Once the supercharger opens up (expected 2018, now 2019) at the mid way point between work and home I'll have a proper rethink.

---

Estimated Car fuel prices per KM (in CHF rounded to nearest cent):

Golf 1.4 Turbo DSG (current car) : 0.10 cent per km
Public charging : 0.08 cent per km
Supercharger: 0.04 cent per km
Home Charging: 0.02 cent per km

for 25 - 30k km per year.

Swiss incentives for EV users - No import Tax and 3 years free road tax.

BKtje

Of course by the time that super charger is open, VW might have given be something else to think about. Not necessarily wanting a tesla (though I do like the look of the model 3) but something with decent range and good affordable charging options

unkel

cnocbui wrote: »

Folding is being at the forefront of solid state battery research worldwide - by a wide margin?

Maybe they realise that Li-ion batteries suck as a vehicle power source.

Li-ion is fine for the moment, but will eventually be replaced with solid state. I'm not holding by breath though.

It looks like Toyota, who desperately clung onto Hydrogen powered cars for so long (they still do?) is again backing the wrong horse at this point in time. I'm not really joking in that I wouldn't be surprised if the company that was the biggest producer of cars in the world only a year or two ago, will be no more within a decade.

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Li-ion is fine for the moment, but will eventually be replaced with solid state. I'm not holding by breath though.

It looks like Toyota, who desperately clung onto Hydrogen powered cars for so long (they still do?) is again backing the wrong horse at this point in time. I'm not really joking in that I wouldn't be surprised if the company that was the biggest producer of cars in the world only a year or two ago, will be no more within a decade.

Its also possible that Toyota are beavering away behind closed doors to deliver EV's when they have the battery breakthrough they believe is required and in the meantime sweating their existing assets.

They clearly know how to do an EV drivetrain well. What they havent committed to is the current battery tech. Once they crack solid state I'd imagine they could spit out a BEV in a very quick timeframe with top quality build and they have billions at they disposal as well, like VW.

They are not like some of the other automakers who have no expertise at all in EV drivetrain and also no plans. They could be in for a rocky decade ahead.

The question is, are Toyota silently working on it in the background or are they sitting back watching the world go by. Could be either, but I'd gamble on the former because of their EV expertise and money they have.

VW are the opposite. They are working on it and telling everyone about it for years and years and years!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

Its also possible that Toyota are beavering away behind closed doors to deliver EV's when they have the battery breakthrough they believe is required and in the meantime sweating their existing assets.

They clearly know how to do an EV drivetrain well. What they havent committed to is the current battery tech. Once they crack solid state I'd imagine they could spit out a BEV in a very quick timeframe with top quality build and they have billions at they disposal as well, like VW.

They are not like some of the other automakers who have no expertise at all in EV drivetrain and also no plans. They could be in for a rocky decade ahead.

The question is, are Toyota silently working on it in the background or are they sitting back watching the world go by. Could be either, but I'd gamble on the former because of their EV expertise and money they have.

VW are the opposite. They are working on it and telling everyone about it for years and years and years!

They have EV drivetrains and have done for years. The likes of the Mirai comes with an EV drivetrain.



You are correct in saying what they haven't got or committed to is LI-Ion. Only time will tell who got that right

bp_me

But they do have a model planned for 2020 (Japan) https://electrek.co/2018/01/16/lexus-unveils-new-crossover-concept-all-electric-powertrain/

unkel

bp_me wrote: »

But they do have a model planned for 2020 (Japan) https://electrek.co/2018/01/16/lexus-unveils-new-crossover-concept-all-electric-powertrain/

That article is a year old. We haven't heard anything since about that "concept" Lexus

liamog

KCross wrote: »

VW are the opposite. They are working on it and telling everyone about it for years and years and years!

I'm driving a 5 year old VW EV. So it's slightly more than just telling people ...

Anybody know another EU country that does PCP via Tesla finance, trying to do some guess work on prices.

Petetheroadie

liamog wrote: »

I'm driving a 5 year old VW EV. So it's slightly more than just telling people ...

Anybody know another EU country that does PCP via Tesla finance, trying to do some guess work on prices.

Looks like France does Liamog.

liamog

Ok so French Model S €10,000 deposit. €1,009 for 48 months.
French Model 3 €10,000 deposit €763 for 48 months.

Irish Model S €10,000 deposti €1,225 for 48 months.

So I'm going to speculate €926 a month for Model 3 LR AWD with EAP based on some highly suspicous math

Old diesel

Bjorn got 327 miles from 94 percent in the long range dual motor Model 3 non performance with 18 inch aero wheels.

Will be very interesting to see the 70 mph return.

Combined with the ability of supercharging this represents a step forward for what EVs can be capable off.

Teslas arent in the normal buying budget for many BUT today's Tesla technology will be the future tech for normal EVs.

The up to 50 percent charging performance of Bjorns other Model 3 test car was deeply impressive at 118 kw (it starts tapering after that).

Especially as a 50 percent top up on a Model 3 doing 300 miles range is a 150 mile range still.

500 miles with only 1 x 40 min stop looks very doable for the car.

Even the long distance diesel drivers will find an EV of this capability useful if the infrastructure is in place.

There can be little doubt that Tesla has an important role in showing us all what can be done

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

Bjorn got 328 miles from 94 percent in the long range dual motor Model 3 non performance with 18 inch aero wheels.

A good bit more than the EPA range of 310 miles. Normal driving in Norway winter conditions I presume?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

A good bit more than the EPA range of 310 miles. Normal driving in Norway winter conditions I presume?

No he's in the US at the moment.
Haven't watched the video myself at the moment (interview prep this morning) but will watch it later.


This model 3 is looking better and better!

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

A good bit more than the EPA range of 310 miles. Normal driving in Norway winter conditions I presume?

He was doing his 90 kmh test procedure.

But he says he's going to do a 70 mph test - as he reempted the inevitable "why are you going so slow" comments.

He has driven two Model 3s in the US in his current trip - a silver performance.

And a non performance dual motor in black.

I wonder will the single motor be even more efficient

KCross

Old diesel wrote: »

He has driven two Model 3s in the US in his current trip - a silver performance.

And a non performance dual motor in black.

I wonder will the single motor be even more efficient

I would have expected the dual motor to be more efficient because, I thought, the two motors are designed to be most efficient at different speeds and they then utilise the motor most suitable at any given time.

So cruising along the motorway it would switch to the motor more efficient at high speed and around town switch to the other motor and obviously when you need max power or more traction it uses both.

Old diesel

He's also now done the 120 kmh test.

176 wh/km.

In the description he estimates the range as 260 miles at 120 kmh.

He reckons only the Ioniq can match it for high speed efficiency

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

I would have expected the dual motor to be more efficient because, I thought, the two motors are designed to be most efficient at different speeds and they then utilise the motor most suitable at any given time.

So cruising along the motorway it would switch to the motor more efficient at high speed and around town switch to the other motor and obviously when you need max power or more traction it uses both.

Certainly in the S and X the dual motor non performance variants are the most efficient as you can split the total power over two axles and use torque sleep to turn off one motor unless needed.
EG S85 is much more inefficient compared to S85D.


Would expect that the 3 would indeed follow the same logic

ELM327

Old diesel wrote: »

He's also now done the 120 kmh test.

176 wh/km.

In the description he estimates the range as 260 miles at 120 kmh.

He reckons only the Ioniq can match it for high speed efficiency

It's interesting, I saw a graph recently (possibly linked from this forum) that at 110km/h and below the Ioniq was more efficient but from 130km/h and above the Model 3 was more efficient than the Ioniq. With 2.5 times the battery capacity, an incredible feat.

unkel

Old diesel wrote: »

He's also now done the 120 kmh test.

176 wh/km.

In the description he estimates the range as 260 miles at 120 kmh.

He reckons only the Ioniq can match it for high speed efficiency

Ioniq should do a good bit better than 176wh/km. But yes, only Model S, Model 3 and Ioniq have a Cd of 0.24. Ioniq has the lowest frontal surface, so should be most efficient (assuming the drive trains of these cars are equally efficient, again Ioniq probably has the edge here)

Pity that Model 3 didn't make the 0.21 that Elon had initially said (hoped) it would be. Well over 400km at 120km/h is not to be sniffed at though :cool:

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

It's interesting, I saw a graph recently (possibly linked from this forum) that at 110km/h and below the Ioniq was more efficient but from 130km/h and above the Model 3 was more efficient than the Ioniq. With 2.5 times the battery capacity, an incredible feat.

Yeah Bjorn tested the performance 3 and it's more efficient than Ioniq @ 120 and beyond, 350km range @ 120

Not bad for a 450bhp monster :cool:

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

Yeah Bjorn tested the performance 3 and it's more efficient than Ioniq @ 120 and beyond

Any link? Maybe the Model 3 has a better than 0.24 Cd after all?

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

Any link? Maybe the Model 3 has a better than 0.24 Cd after all?

He talks about it here somewhere

jarrieta

The range tests for the LR AWD non performance are there, look good, he says it was a quite windy day:

90km/h -> 560km -> 129Wh/km
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJpz5imqW5U

120km/h -> 420km -> 176Wh/km
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4zjy6qxFBs

Given the charging speed in a previous video of 118KW until 50% seems like a great EV indeed (to me)

unkel

Mike9832 wrote: »

He talks about it here somewhere

He didn't say Ioniq is less efficient at speeds at all, maybe you should watch it again

He said he would like to do a head to head test comparing Ioniq and Tesla Model 3

The figures didn't impress me much tbh. 105 km driven in exactly one hour averaging 19kWh/100km. Excellent for a performance long range machine, but Ioniq is far more efficient, it would have done that in about 14-15kWh/100km

Mike9832

unkel wrote: »

He didn't say Ioniq is less efficient at speeds at all, maybe you should watch it again

He said he would like to do a head to head test comparing Ioniq and Tesla Model 3

The figures didn't impress me much tbh. 105 km driven in exactly one hour averaging 19kWh/100km. Excellent for a performance long range machine, but Ioniq is far more efficient, it would have done that in about 14-15kWh/100km

Was sure he said Ioniq was less efficient

Will have to watch it again

How can you not be impressed?

RS4 fast and takes so little energy

unkel

Not that impressed with the efficiency. It's only a touch better than Model S, which is far bigger and heavier.

But don't take me up wrong on this, the Model 3 is a mightily impressive car in any form (base, long range, performance, dual motor). I'd still be on the list and I would buy one (base model) if I did not have a dog. Also efficiency is not very important. I really wouldn't care if my EV would cost me €100 per 10k km (Ioniq) or €200 per 10k km (Tesla Model X P100D Ludicrous)

slicedpanman

I'd still buy one, if it was possible and I had the money

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

Not that impressed with the efficiency. It's only a touch better than Model S, which is far bigger and heavier.

But don't take me up wrong on this, the Model 3 is a mightily impressive car in any form (base, long range, performance, dual motor). I'd still be on the list and I would buy one (base model) if I did not have a dog. Also efficiency is not very important. I really wouldn't care if my EV would cost me €100 per 10k km (Ioniq) or €200 per 10k km (Tesla Model X P100D Ludicrous)

It was the black non preformance car (presumably the same car he used for the boot design flaw demo) he was comparing to the Ioniq.

Was the silver performance model car that did 19 kwh/100 km I think.

I think he's currently doing an efficiency livestream - but I find livestreams very data heavy in the long 3 to 4 hour ones Bjorn does.

Hopefully he will do a shorter video soon

hatrack

slicedpanman wrote: »

I'd still buy one, if it was possible and I had the money

Think this has been fixed in later builds.

Still not great for it to make it to some production cars!

Update on Tesla website recently, early 2019 has become 2019 and the narrative says RHD deliveries will begin in second half of 2019.

unkel

hatrack wrote: »

Update on Tesla website recently, early 2019 has become 2019 and the narrative says RHD deliveries will begin in second half of 2019.

As I have said for a very long time: no Irish model 3 on reg until 201

Lord knows when the base model will come. Maybe they have a hatchback option by then, so I can buy one

Phibsboro

We are at page 187 on this thread. Is there any chance someone could summarise the current situation for a neutral observer? I'm looking at going EV early 2020, the Kia Niro seems to be a tipping point for me at 37k delivered for 455km WLTP. Having read back a few pages here I can't get a feel for where Tesla are in relation to Ireland. What would my chances be of getting a Model 3 in H1 2020? How much would it cost? What is the WLTP of that model?

Thanks in advance

dmcg90

Phibsboro wrote: »

We are at page 187 on this thread. Is there any chance someone could summarise the current situation for a neutral observer? I'm looking at going EV early 2020, the Kia Niro seems to be a tipping point for me at 37k delivered for 455km WLTP. Having read back a few pages here I can't get a feel for where Tesla are in relation to Ireland. What would my chances be of getting a Model 3 in H1 2020? How much would it cost? What is the WLTP of that model?

Thanks in advance

In a similar situation, looking at the expected price difference (inc. 7.5k for autopilot!) I'm finding it hard to justify the car against the Kona/Niro. My other concern is around service and repair, hearing from the US the difficulties some people have, I'd be worried if I damaged the car it'd take ages to repair given we're quite a small market.

hatrack

Phibsboro wrote: »

We are at page 187 on this thread. Is there any chance someone could summarise the current situation for a neutral observer? I'm looking at going EV early 2020, the Kia Niro seems to be a tipping point for me at 37k delivered for 455km WLTP. Having read back a few pages here I can't get a feel for where Tesla are in relation to Ireland. What would my chances be of getting a Model 3 in H1 2020? How much would it cost? What is the WLTP of that model?

Thanks in advance

The cheapest Model 3 that could be here by then will be the mid-range which should have a range of around 420km, you’re looking at about €50,000 minimum.

The standard range probably won’t make it here until very late 2020 or early 2021 (if ever). Cheapest that will be (by the time you layer on 10% import duty and 23% VAT) would be €41-42,000.

Unless you’re a Tesla fanatic the Niro is a far more sensible option.

ELM327

dmcg90 wrote: »

In a similar situation, looking at the expected price difference (inc. 7.5k for autopilot!) I'm finding it hard to justify the car against the Kona/Niro. My other concern is around service and repair, hearing from the US the difficulties some people have, I'd be worried if I damaged the car it'd take ages to repair given we're quite a small market.

Kona and niro are not really in the same market as the model 3 to be fair.
Kona/niro are small crossovers. Model 3 is a 3 series segment small executive saloon.


The fact that they are even painted as competitors shows how new the EV market is as there are not enough EVs by market segment.


Imagine choosing between a 325i and a Hyundai Tucson!

embraer170

Tesla are shutting a good few service centres in Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and the Netherlands.

Petetheroadie

embraer170 wrote: »

Tesla are shutting a good few service centres in Belgium, Switzerland, Germany and the Netherlands.

That seems odd. Can you share the link to whatever article talks about this? Seems totally at odds with what they need to do to support Model 3 rollout.

embraer170

Edited: Fake news. Tesla are not closing any Service Centers.

Petetheroadie wrote: »

That seems odd. Can you share the link to whatever article talks about this? Seems totally at odds with what they need to do to support Model 3 rollout.

https://twitter.com/markbspiegel/status/1087144343817908225