Tesla Model 3

Gile_na_gile

Feel the burn on the Tesla forum.... Imagine having paid for something that now costs $10k less without any reduction to you.... Good for the rest of us though. I would never pre-order when there are years or even months to wait - just too impatient.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-model-3-pricing

ELM327

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

Feel the burn on the Tesla forum.... Imagine having paid for something that now costs $10k less without any reduction to you.... Good for the rest of us though. I would never pre-order when there are years or even months to wait - just too impatient.
https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/new-model-3-pricing

That thread is hilarious.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

That thread is hilarious.

Enjoying a bit of Schadenfreude there?

ELM327

unkel wrote: »

Enjoying a bit of Schadenfreude there?

No it's just the whining of people who were happy to pay the price yesterday but somehow because others get a "better" deal today they feel hard done by.


It's like anyone who purchased a 520d in 2007 got stiffed by the change to emissions tax. The deal worked when you signed it , don't be a begrudger!

MrMusician18

bk wrote: »

True, one option is they could come to your home to do a test drive. No need for expensive real estate.

Tesla weren't doing normal test drives out of their show rooms anyway. Think of a store inside the middle of Dundrum shopping center! That is what they are often like in the US. For test drives I think they were bringing people out to the shopping centers car park where they had a few chargers.

Test drives from home or a service center seem like decent alternatives.



I'd argue it was only partly designed as an electric car. It shares most of it's body, etc. with their other cars. It is more EV then just sticking batteries in the boot like some companies, but not a true clean sheet, ground up EV like the Tesla's.

I'd have to disagree with KCross, this is is going to have a massive effect not just to other EV's, but across all cars.

Obviously we will have to wait and see how much it costs here, but let say it does cost 40k. Well I can't see anyone buying a Kona for 37k anymore, it will need to drop quiet a bit.

Prius, I'd say totally stuffed. In particular Prius+ (36k) and Prius Plug-in (37k and up) will be in big trouble.

I'd even argue that the type of people who usually buy a BMW 3 series, Merc C Class, etc. might well give it a close look.

I expect their are many very worried execs in the traditional cars companies today.

I doubt they are that worried. The share price for the big three German manufacturers is up over 1% across the board today. Contrast that with Tesla where today had probably been their most expensive ever day.

Don't really understand the Tesla fans, or fans of any company tbh. Who cares if they succeed or not?

jordan191

anyone know where the handiest place in Europe to test drive the model 3 at the moment, I was going to wait for an eNiro, but maybe the model 3 might be a better option

MrMusician18

ELM327 wrote: »

No it's just the whining of people who were happy to pay the price yesterday but somehow because others get a "better" deal today they feel hard done by.


It's like anyone who purchased a 520d in 2007 got stiffed by the change to emissions tax. The deal worked when you signed it , don't be a begrudger!

It is a blow to it's resale value, so the price drop does have a material effect on them

MrMusician18

MrMusician18 wrote: »

Who cares if they succeed or not?

You'll thank them one day when you finally decide to go for an EV. Must will continue to force the hand of the reluctant ones to start building proper EVs in volume or die and disappear without a trace.

Pontiac and GM in general, Ford who lose money on every model in Europe apart from Transit. FIAT.

KCross

bk wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with KCross, this is is going to have a massive effect not just to other EV's, but across all cars.

Obviously we will have to wait and see how much it costs here, but let say it does cost 40k. Well I can't see anyone buying a Kona for 37k anymore, it will need to drop quiet a bit.

Prius, I'd say totally stuffed. In particular Prius+ (36k) and Prius Plug-in (37k and up) will be in big trouble.

I'd even argue that the type of people who usually buy a BMW 3 series, Merc C Class, etc. might well give it a close look.

^ I think its going to affect those more than any others. Company cars are going to lap this Model 3 up.

Give me a prediction.... how much will I be able to buy a long range Kona EV (or eNiro) for after this Model 3 hits Irish shores?

I'd say, at best, they will introduce scrappage. I dont see €30k Kona EV's hitting the market, but give me your prediction and we'll see!

eagerv

I must say that today has made the decision for a prospective EV buyer more difficult, or perhaps easier?:)


Cars like the Kona, Leaf etc are off my radar at the moment.
Cars like second hand Ioniq, etc, looking more attractive, but whats going to happen with those prices?


I suppose buying an EV is a bit like buying that fancy TV or PC. Buy it and try and forget what you paid for it..


Just my thoughts, probably rubbish...

ELM327

MrMusician18 wrote: »

It is a blow to it's resale value, so the price drop does have a material effect on them

Exactly. Same as anyone who purchased a 520d in 2007.
But you can't go whining to Tesla when they drop prices. Tesla has been notoriously volatile for MSRP over the years. If the deal worked for you yesterday you have no right to complain today.

drunkmonkey

What's a 5yr old Samsung worth? Technology won't be long moving along once there all in production in the next year or so.

josip

drunkmonkey wrote: »

What's a 5yr old Samsung worth? Technology won't be long moving along once there all in production in the next year or so.

I just realised I have the same approach with TVs as cars.

Sony Wega Trinitron 32" flat 2000 - 2010
Samsung UE46ES8000 2011 - present

Model 3 AWD next baby...

Soarer

josip wrote: »

I just realised I have the same approach with TVs as cars.

Sony Wega Trinitron 32" flat 2000 - 2010
Samsung UE46ES8000 2011 - present

Model 3 AWD next baby...

Get the Model 3, and I'll swap you for my Leaf and 65" OLED.

Two birds, one stone!

sk8board

samih wrote: »

You'll thank them one day when you finally decide to go for an EV. Must will continue to force the hand of the reluctant ones to start building proper EVs in volume or die and disappear without a trace.

Pontiac and GM in general, Ford who lose money on every model in Europe apart from Transit. FIAT.

I don’t think the OPs comment was anti Tesla specifically, just a point that who actually cares if some massive company with BILLIONS of accumulated losses, doesn’t commercially succeed.
Tesla have created a phenomenal brand loyalty around “Elon”.
99.9% of us couldn’t name a single one of the other 45,000 Tesla employees.

Sure they are at the bleeding edge of future tech, but the future is now pretty cemented as an EV one. The biggest blocker in delivering cheaper EVs is the cost of R&D - look at the recent tieup between fierce rivals Daimler and BMW as a great example. They know what the future is, but they can’t afford it. Neither can Tesla.

ted1

sk8board wrote: »

I don’t think the OPs comment was anti Tesla specifically, just a point that who actually cares if some massive company with BILLIONS of accumulated losses, doesn’t commercially succeed.
Tesla have created a phenomenal brand loyalty around “Elon”.
99.9% of us couldn’t name a single one of the other 45,000 Tesla employees.

Sure they are at the bleeding edge of future tech, but the future is now pretty cemented as an EV one. The biggest blocker in delivering cheaper EVs is the cost of R&D - look at the recent tieup between fierce rivals Daimler and BMW as a great example. They know what the future is, but they can’t afford it. Neither can Tesla.

While the future may be cemented ( thanks to Tesla) VW are still concerned about their future ICE range.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/cbdbc068-39c9-11e9-b72b-2c7f526ca5d0

sk8board

ted1 wrote: »

While the future may be cemented ( thanks to Tesla) VW are still concerned about their future ICE range.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/cbdbc068-39c9-11e9-b72b-2c7f526ca5d0

Exactly, Tesla expedited the future, no doubt about it, but the sheer R&D cost of delivering that future could ultimately end them.
Tesla are perceived to be ahead of the market, but the market is a volume/revenue-driven one and their volumes are tiny in terms of overall auto sales.
ultimately the main manufacturers don’t want to risk ruin by investing so much in battery tech too soon, hence the recent surprising tie-ups.
Tesla have massive capacity limitations, while the others have over capacity.

bk

KCross wrote: »

^ I think its going to affect those more than any others. Company cars are going to lap this Model 3 up.

Give me a prediction.... how much will I be able to buy a long range Kona EV (or eNiro) for after this Model 3 hits Irish shores?

I'd say, at best, they will introduce scrappage. I dont see €30k Kona EV's hitting the market, but give me your prediction and we'll see!

Honestly I don't know.

First do you mean globally or just Ireland?

In the US, the Model 3 is now cheaper then the Kona!! Needless to say Kona sales will collapse there.

Here, since there isn't a release date or price for the Model 3, they will probably wait and see. As you say, scrappage is a likely tactic they will use, perhaps they will also bring in the more premium UK spec and replace the paddy spec we get here to make it better value and perhaps they will introduce the 40 model here at a cheaper price.

But we are too small a market to really matter. The more interesting question is what will Hyundai do globally. It definitely doesn't look well priced now.

How much does it cost them to build? How much can they reduce it and still make a profit? Will they reduce it and take a loss just to keep their nose in the EV game? Might they just scrap production of it if they are too expensive to make and can't cut the price and not selling? Maybe focus instead on an affordable Ioniq 40?

I'm sure there is a lot of rethinking going on at the likes of Hyundai now in terms of overall strategy. The Kona, Ioniq, etc. aren't true ground up EV's and they may not be priced for true mass market production to compete with Model 3. It will be interesting to see where they go.

Don't really understand the Tesla fans, or fans of any company tbh. Who cares if they succeed or not?

Personally I don't care. I just want EV's to come sooner rather then later and I don't care who brings them.

I do find what is going on in the car industry very interesting. It is facing massive disruptive forces and many of the traditional car companies are sitting on absolutely massive debt mountains that don't look very healthy. It won't take much to pop that debt bubble and you could see many of them go bankrupt.

You mention they are up 1% today, now look at their stock price over the last 5 years, they are at half their 5Y peak. Investors have been very nervous about them since Tesla hit the market and the massive debts they have all racked up.

Nedved85

josip wrote: »

I just realised I have the same approach with TVs as cars.

Sony Wega Trinitron 32" flat 2000 - 2010
Samsung UE46ES8000 2011 - present

Model 3 AWD next baby...

I have the same telly - It's brilliant - great investment back in the day !

josip

Has anyone explained why the price drop now?
I thought that most people suspected it would either never happen or was still a few months/years ago.
Does this mean they have almost exhausted demand for the higher value versions?
Won't this reduce their profits?
Does that mean investors are looking to increase market share instead and blow away competitors?
Aren't they already selling everything they can produce?
None of this makes sense.

cnocbui

It's Musk trying to have a go at short sellers - in which case it backfired - 8.6 % share price drop today - and it may also be in an attempt to boost demand, which is possibly not as strong as some people think.

ted1

josip wrote: »

Has anyone explained why the price drop now?
I thought that most people suspected it would either never happen or was still a few months/years ago.
Does this mean they have almost exhausted demand for the higher value versions?
Won't this reduce their profits?
Does that mean investors are looking to increase market share instead and blow away competitors?
Aren't they already selling everything they can produce?
None of this makes sense.

I’d say they exhausted sales of the top models. If they can deliver in two weeks then they clearly dint have orders.

Most of the 400,000 deposits were for a 35k car. It’ll be interesting to see the conversion rates now.

ted1

cnocbui wrote: »

It's Musk trying to have a go at short sellers - in which case it backfired - 8.6 % share price drop today - and it may also be in an attempt to boost demand, which is possibly not as strong as some people think.

The had to pay a bond of just 1bn USD back today. A share price of 359 would have avoided that.

bk

Tesla also announced yesterday that they won't make a profit this quarter, thus the share price drop.

Sabre Man

josip wrote: »

Has anyone explained why the price drop now?
I thought that most people suspected it would either never happen or was still a few months/years ago.
Does this mean they have almost exhausted demand for the higher value versions?
Won't this reduce their profits?
Does that mean investors are looking to increase market share instead and blow away competitors?
Aren't they already selling everything they can produce?
None of this makes sense.

Probably putting more pressure on ICE producers. Same tactic Amazon used.

unkel

Sabre Man wrote: »

Probably putting more pressure on ICE producers. Same tactic Amazon used.

And Amazon didn't make any profits for a very long time either. And boom now it's the 4th biggest company in the world and its founder the richest man on the planet.

cnocbui

Amazon deliberately engineered it to make it look like they weren't making a profit so they wouldn't have to pay any tax. Beezos made sure to invest heavily every year to expand the business, so incurred costs which counted against the considerable income to insure no profit was made on paper.

Nolars

What are the chances of this giving other EV makers a kick up the backside as they have long queues of people waiting..

bk

cnocbui wrote: »

Amazon deliberately engineered it to make it look like they weren't making a profit so they wouldn't have to pay any tax. Beezos made sure to invest heavily every year to expand the business, so incurred costs which counted against the considerable income to insure no profit was made on paper.

Exactly the same as Tesla is doing so... Tesla makes a profit per vehicle, it is just that they are pouring the profits back in to the business, building out the Gigafactory and now building new plants in China and Europe, growing their market share and likely forcing some of their competitors into bankruptcy.

Mike9832

bk wrote: »

Exactly the same as Tesla is doing so... Tesla makes a profit per vehicle, it is just that they are pouring the profits back in to the business, building out the Gigafactory and now building new plants in China and Europe, growing their market share and likely forcing some of their competitors into bankruptcy.

Good point

People shouldn't confuse profit and investment

Tesla have grown sales by 11,000% in the last 5 years while investing billions at the same time

Need to spend to make money

KCross

Doesnt look like the $35k Model 3 has worried Nissan. They have released their L62 prices for the USA and its more expensive than the Model 3!!!

https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/the-nissan-leaf-plus-starts-at-36550/

MrMusician18

Mike9832 wrote: »

Good point

People shouldn't confuse profit and investment

Tesla have grown sales by 11,000% in the last 5 years while investing billions at the same time

Need to spend to make money

That's fine if they're investing profits, but they've been investing money raised via debt and equity.

Mike9832

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's fine if they're investing profits, but they've been investing money raised via debt and equity.

Thats how in works

Look up the debt of the largest automakers like VW, Toyota etc

They are all up to eyeballs in it

Hundreds of billions in debt

We never hear about that

VW are loaded, going to crush Tesla with financial might lol 😂

ted1

KCross wrote: »

Doesnt look like the $35k Model 3 has worried Nissan. They have released their L62 prices for the USA and its more expensive than the Model 3!!!

https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/the-nissan-leaf-plus-starts-at-36550/

Those prices and pr material was set before the M3 35k got released

ted1

MrMusician18 wrote: »

That's fine if they're investing profits, but they've been investing money raised via debt and equity.

That’s how it works. Do you think companies can get Only grow based on profits ?

KCross

ted1 wrote: »

Those prices and pr material was set before the M3 35k got released

No doubt, but if they were worried about M3 pricing you’d think they’d have reconsidered before releasing it. A Leaf costing more than an M3 is a bit ridiculous.

Now the pricing is out it’s going to be much harder to reduce it in a few months and pissing off those who bought.

Mike9832

KCross wrote: »

No doubt, but if they were worried about M3 pricing you’d think they’d have reconsidered before releasing it. A Leaf costing more than an M3 is a bit ridiculous.

Now the pricing is out it’s going to be much harder to reduce it in a few months and pissing off those who bought.

Leaf is only a compliance car in the States for Nissan

They sold 103,000 vehicles in the States last month, Leaf made up 654 of that, 99.5% ICE sales

As you said they are obviously not bothered

They should be, as sales are down 15% this year for Nissan in the States

They are dieing there like alot of brands

unkel

KCross wrote: »

Now the pricing is out it’s going to be much harder to reduce it in a few months and pissing off those who bought.

Some new car companies refreshingly don't care much about that line of thought

Calahonda52

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash-idUSKCN1QJ0MC

Won't help the share price.
A second decapitation event, with car running on beyond the crash, so no lessons learned from
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-idUSKCN0ZN1XX

KCross

unkel wrote: »

Some new car companies refreshingly don't care much about that line of thought

Its only refreshing if you are not affected!

Would you be equally pleased if you found that your new Ioniq was worth, say, €5k less a few months after you bought it because they dropped the price rather than through normal depreciation.... i dont think you would.

Nissan had an opportunity to react to the Model 3 pricing and they havent taken that chance so they believe they will still sell at the price... time will tell.

Johnboy1951

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash-idUSKCN1QJ0MC

Won't help the share price.
A second decapitation event, with car running on beyond the crash, so no lessons learned from
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-idUSKCN0ZN1XX

I would hope that Tesla does not have to take responsibility for drivers abdicating their responsibilities, which could very well be a major factor in these accidents.

No, I am not a Tesla lover, but I do appreciate the disruption they have and are causing to the car market.
I will never own one, but hopefully when 'normal cars for normal people' get produced I will benefit.

ted1

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash-idUSKCN1QJ0MC

Won't help the share price.
A second decapitation event, with car running on beyond the crash, so no lessons learned from
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-idUSKCN0ZN1XX

I thnk you should wait for the report before jumping to conclusions.

Calahonda52

Calahonda52 wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash-idUSKCN1QJ0MC

Won't help the share price.
A second decapitation event, with car running on beyond the crash, so no lessons learned from
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autopilot-idUSKCN0ZN1XX

This is more to do with the poor design of trailers in the US that allow cars to crash into their sides at roof level as opposed to bumper level.
Artics here in the EU are compelled by law to have bars to prevent such underruns.
Whether the Tesla (or driver) is at fault is really a side issue.
I wouldn't trust any self driving system on a road that is less than perfect or has other traffic on it.

Dont be at yourself

What's the delivery wait if you were to order a Model 3 in available markets? Had a look on the French website and they're saying Marxh delivery -- is that true even if you haven't paid the deposit to get on the wait list?

Interested in picking up a Performance model once RHD launches -- gettable in 2019 without a deposit down?

Casati

ted1 wrote: »

Those prices and pr material was set before the M3 35k got released

I might be dreaming but wasn’t the Model 3 released originally with a starting price of 35k? I know that only the higher performance cars were available till now but just because they announced the 35k price again doesn’t mean it’s new news. Nissan, Kia etc all would have been aware of Tesla’s plans for a 35k Model 3 long before they launched their latest versions

KCross

Casati wrote: »

I might be dreaming but wasn’t the Model 3 released originally with a starting price of 35k? I know that only the higher performance cars were available till now but just because they announced the 35k price again doesn’t mean it’s new news. Nissan, Kia etc all would have been aware of Tesla’s plans for a 35k Model 3 long before they launched their latest versions

Its one thing for Tesla to say, 3 years ago, that it will be a $35k car and another thing entirely to actually deliver it at that price and still make a profit.... lots of people believed (and still do) that Tesla wouldnt manage it.

I dont think anyone expected it to happen this year, not to mind next.

cnocbui

ted1 wrote: »

I thnk you should wait for the report before jumping to conclusions.

People should just stop with this constant white washing!

Fatal Crash And Fire Killed a Tesla Driver After Door Handles Allegedly Didn't Work
VIKTOR TANGERMANN, FUTURISM
26 FEB 2019

A man died after crashing a 2016 Tesla Model S into a tree in Miami, Florida yesterday afternoon, according to local news.

The car reportedly swerved through multiple lanes of traffic before hitting a median and some trees and bursting into flames - and the death may have been related to the electric carmaker's iconic pop-out door handles malfunctioning after the wreck.

"Efforts to extract the driver were unsuccessful," local police sergeant Mark Leone said in a statement Monday morning, as quoted by the Sun Sentinel.

Electrek reports that witnesses say the door handles of the vehicle did not open and that the numerous airbags didn't deflate.

"We were there," Misty Lea Thomas, alleged witness of the accident, tweeted last night. "My husband tried to break the back window out. The airbags didn't deflate after the crash and trapped the person inside."

"We couldn't even see inside the car because all of the bags filled the car," she wrote. "The doors couldn't be opened."

According to the Associated Press, a local police officer also tried to break the car's window, but couldn't get the driver out.

"We have a problem where the car keeps catching fire because the battery pack itself hasn't drained yet," Davie Fire Rescue Battalion Chief Robert Diferdinando told the Sun Sentinel.

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-fatal-crash-and-fire-killed-a-tesla-driver-after-the-door-handles-didn-t-work

cnocbui

cnocbui wrote: »

People should just stop with this constant white washing!

https://www.sciencealert.com/a-fatal-crash-and-fire-killed-a-tesla-driver-after-the-door-handles-didn-t-work

I think the obvious conclusion from these types of incidents is that all vehicles should have mechanically operated door handles in the event of total loss of power to the electronics after a crash, regardless of vehicle.

Shefwedfan

Mike9832 wrote: »

Leaf is only a compliance car in the States for Nissan

They sold 103,000 vehicles in the States last month, Leaf made up 654 of that, 99.5% ICE sales

As you said they are obviously not bothered

They should be, as sales are down 15% this year for Nissan in the States

They are dieing there like alot of brands

Bit early to pronounce the death of Nissan


http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/nissan/


They have constantly taken share and just reduced a bit last year.

Zamboni

Hi
I cannot figure out wait list times on the Model 3 at all.
Taking recent Tesla news into account, which one could I get my hands on in Ireland sooner realistically? A Model 3 or a Leaf E+ 62kWh?