Tesla Model 3

Shefwedfan

cnocbui wrote: »

Ah, but the only criteria driving crossover SUV sales is the higher driving position. On that criteria the Y is also a fail because the drivers position is the same as the Model 3.

This page - about a third of the way down, there is an image compare slider overlaying the two models - try it - the drivers head height above the road is exactly the same.

For those wanting seven seats - that is an optional extra.

I guess you havent see the Niro. Hardly a man mountain of a thing


7 seats, check any of the current Crossover going back to the Qashqai +2. Unless you are a child or a halfing they are useless....even the "SUV" of this world like the Santa Fei etc, the back seats are tiny....


Would I buy the Y? no.....will other people buy it? Yes

Gumbo

cnocbui wrote: »

For those wanting seven seats - that is an optional extra.

As with nearly every other car out there, the 7 seat option is that, and optional extra.

Qashqai
BMW X5
Audi Q7
Land Rover

slave1

Just posting this so I can report to a mod to move these derailing Model Y comments to the Model Y thread
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=109580409

josip

unkel wrote: »

The Model Y will be the new Nissan Qashqai

Do you expect the price point of the Model Y to be similar to a future electric Qashqai?

hatrack

Tesla effectively killed the $35,000 version overnight. Only available “off menu” now.

Price of Standard Range+ increased but now comes with basic Autopilot (Enhanced Autopilot was killed a few weeks ago).

The Standard Range+ was also added to the European configurator which is bad news for RHD as they’re going to switch to lower margin LHD cars in Europe before switching to RHD.

Further evidence that RHD is extremely low priority for them. We’re never gonna get our cars.

https://www.tesla.com/nl_NL/blog/update-our-vehicle-lineup?redirect=no

TCP/IP

hatrack wrote: »

Tesla effectively killed the $35,000 version overnight. Only available “off menu” now.

Price of Standard Range+ increased but now comes with basic Autopilot (Enhanced Autopilot was killed a few weeks ago).

The Standard Range+ was also added to the European configurator which is bad news for RHD as they’re going to switch to lower margin LHD cars in Europe before switching to RHD.

Further evidence that RHD is extremely low priority for them. We’re never gonna get our cars.

https://www.tesla.com/nl_NL/blog/update-our-vehicle-lineup?redirect=no

Is there any end to the sh!t show of a company that Tesla is.
They are unbelievable in the chopping and changing all the time they really need to get it together and have some stability in the company. Tesla mark my words is going to be one hell of a failure and will get bought out of administration by one of the larger auto manufacturers in the next 3 years for cents on the $$$.

hatrack

TCP/IP wrote: »

Is there any end to the sh!t show of a company that Tesla is.
They are unbelievable in the chopping and changing all the time they really need to get it together and have some stability in the company. Tesla mark my words is going to be one hell of a failure and will get bought out of administration by one of the larger auto manufacturers in the next 3 years for cents on the $$$.

In fairness, other manufacturers are constantly changing line-ups, model versions and prices too. It’s just more noticeable because Tesla have a limited line-up and very few options.

Sabre Man

- Model 3 Standard will now be a software-limited version of the Standard Plus, and we are taking it off the online ordering menu, which just means that to get it, customers will need to call us or visit any one of the several hundred Tesla stores. Deliveries of Model 3 Standard will begin this weekend.

- Its range will be limited by 10%, and several features will be disabled via software (including our onboard music streaming service, navigation with live traffic visualization, and heated seats). Similar to other software-limited vehicles produced in the past, Standard customers will have the option to upgrade to a Standard Plus at any time. Similarly, anyone who has already bought Standard Plus and wants to convert to Standard is welcome to do so, and we will provide a refund for the difference in cost.

So Model 3 Standard owners will be able to upgrade later, thus getting more choice.

ELM327

It was the same for the S40 (software limited 60) and S60 (software limited 75).
I don't think they want to sell many standard range 35k models yet to be honest.

cnocbui

hatrack wrote: »

In fairness, other manufacturers are constantly changing line-ups, model versions and prices too. It’s just more noticeable because Tesla have a limited line-up and very few options.

Can you give some examples?

Dont be at yourself

About €48K otr for the SR+ in Austria. Definitely worth the extra for the LR or Performance if budgets can stretch.

hatrack

cnocbui wrote: »

Can you give some examples?

I couldn’t be bothered.

Go on to the Audi website yourself, configure a car and count how many different options there are.

ELM327

At 48k for the base+ vs ~65-70 for performance , the performance is the better buy if you have the funds, but the base+ model is still years ahead of anything else non tesla.

Gumbo

cnocbui wrote: »

Can you give some examples?

BMW
SE Version
Msport Version
Msport Plus Version
Msport Pack with SE suspension
SE speification with MSport kit exterior only

Theres many more options available from many manufacturers, I don't see the issue.

Now currently, BMW are doing a 2,500 cash back offer or lower APR so you now have to work out what is financially better.

TCP/IP

Interesting that no one has commented that I believe Tesla with be swallowed up by a large automaker or tech giant due to financial difficulties.
I really can't see anything else in the future for Tesla if not an automaker that buys them it will be Apple/Amazon or the likes.

Even as an Apple fan I can see Tesla been a perfect purchase for them as they continue to move into the world of automotive.
Also for Apple is a perfect fit as a populist brand. Just look at the EV threads all EV fans given the choice would like a Tesla, could Apple be the answer to Elon's problems.

ELM327

I think it has been discussed many times here.
Can't see someone from within fossil car OEMs buying them. Apple might be a good fit, although they would probably want to change the name to iTesla or something given their brand strategy. Otherwise the exclusivity and fanboys would be similar to those who follow apple products now. Myself included in both camps of course.

Gumbo

If they make it through the next few years, and the M3 and MY sells/continues to sell as planned then I cant see them going anywhere.
If some mega giant does buy them out, I can see the brand Tesla being kept as its synonymous with EV's in general.

Dont be at yourself

Tesla will be given entry of runway by the market to grow and grow and grow without pressure to deliver short-term financial returns. They should be compared to the Uber, Netflix, etc of the world, not Ford or GM.

Tesla's ambition is not to sell more cars than VW, Toyota, or Ford -- it's to usher in a new era of mobility -- electric, autonomous, in-demand etc -- these require huge upfront costs and large scale, but the size of the prize is enormous and the rest of the auto industry is stuck facing the innovator's dilemma.

Shefwedfan

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Tesla will be given entry of runway by the market to grow and grow and grow without pressure to deliver short-term financial returns. They should be compared to the Uber, Netflix, etc of the world, not Ford or GM.

Tesla's ambition is not to sell more cars than VW, Toyota, or Ford -- it's to usher in a new era of mobility -- electric, autonomous, in-demand etc -- these require huge upfront costs and large scale, but the size of the prize is enormous and the rest of the auto industry is stuck facing the innovator's dilemma.

Seriously, do you make this stuff up?

The only reason the likes of Uber/Netflix grew so quick is because the profit per employee was huge. All of these companies you refer to are web based with very little staff overhead. Very little wages so all the profit could be pumped back into the company. Lets name a few of the big companies.....Google/Amazon/Uber/Netflix/Facebook etc etc....any common theme

This is not Tesla and crazy to even think it is. Tesla have taken all production in house, this should increase the quality control but it hasn't. So you have a company with a large amount of staff. Tesla are trying and trying to move to less staff but are struggling

They also tried to reduce this recently by closing loads of stores in the US and moving to online model but as far as I seen they had to reverse this decision.

Of course Tesla ambition is to sell more cars than other manufacturers, if not then what is the point of building the company? why do you think everyone has sat watching the production line for the last 2 years to see if they could start to produce enough car per qtr to make a dent in the big suppliers.....

Quick hint to how Elon made his money, it was a start up online company(paypal) which grew with a small staff and pumped back in the profits....then when it was big enough they sold it at a huge profit and moved on......that's a model Musk cannot repeat when making cars!!!!!

Dont be at yourself

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Seriously, do you make this stuff up?

The only reason the likes of Uber/Netflix grew so quick is because the profit per employee was huge. All of these companies you refer to are web based with very little staff overhead. Very little wages so all the profit could be pumped back into the company. Lets name a few of the big companies.....Google/Amazon/Uber/Netflix/Facebook etc etc....any common theme

We're going off topic, but you're wrong. Netflix has massive costs -- server infastructure, content rights, technology development etc. Amazon ditto -- building out an entire logistics company. Profit per employee is not a metric that was at all important for these companies during growth stage -- nor indeed was profit full stop. They were given huge rope by investors to invest and scale, because that scale brings unassailable advantages in what are huge markets.

Why do you think Tesla is building every car with a full array of self-driving cameras, connectivity, internal camera etc, and pushing prices down aggressively all the way? They could be a very profitable high-end auto marque if they wished -- but instead they're pushing to build an unassailable lead in real world driving telemetry, autonomous miles, charging infrastructure and a fleet of connected vehicles. They're playing a different game to traditional auto companies -- we can see the likes of Daimler and GM entering JVs and setting up side projects to take a similar approach, but like I say, they are hamstrung by trying to conserve their existing businesses.

That's in no way me saying Tesla's strategy is right or that they'll "win", but any analysis has to understand what Tesla are trying to do, which is not just bend metal and sell family cars.

ELM327

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

We're going off topic, but you're wrong. Netflix has massive costs -- server infastructure, content rights, technology development etc. Amazon ditto -- building out an entire logistics company. Profit per employee is not a metric that was at all important for these companies during growth stage -- nor indeed was profit full stop. They were given huge rope by investors to invest and scale, because that scale brings unassailable advantages in what are huge markets.

Why do you think Tesla is building every car with a full array of self-driving cameras, connectivity, internal camera etc, and pushing prices down aggressively all the way? They could be a very profitable high-end auto marque if they wished -- but instead they're pushing to build an unassailable lead in real world driving telemetry, autonomous miles, charging infrastructure and a fleet of connected vehicles. They're playing a different game to traditional auto companies -- we can see the likes of Daimler and GM entering JVs and setting up side projects to take a similar approach, but like I say, they are hamstrung by trying to conserve their existing businesses.

That's in no way me saying Tesla's strategy is right or that they'll "win", but any analysis has to understand what Tesla are trying to do, which is not just bend metal and sell family cars.

+1


Tesla could have easily stayed selling just the S and X and remained very profitable, however that didnt align with their goals.


Startup capital to gain/create market share is not new and all the large companies you mentioned were/are loss making for a long time.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

+1


Tesla could have easily stayed selling just the S and X and remained very profitable, however that didnt align with their goals.


Startup capital to gain/create market share is not new and all the large companies you mentioned were/are loss making for a long time.

That is not what was posted. The post was that Tesla could continue to run and run without making profits. This is not correct. Tesla need to turn a profit...make a turnover because they have to pay employees......



The IT startup companies mentioned could run because they had small overheads. A few guys with the cost to run a PC/server and then get product to market and watch it grow. Only once it started to turn a profit did they need to hire more people.....Microsoft/Facebook/Amazon/Watsapp/Spotify/Twitter etc etc etc.....so no Tesla is not like these companies at all

Mike9832

Sabre Man wrote: »

- Model 3 Standard will now be a software-limited version of the Standard Plus, and we are taking it off the online ordering menu, which just means that to get it, customers will need to call us or visit any one of the several hundred Tesla stores. Deliveries of Model 3 Standard will begin this weekend.

- Its range will be limited by 10%, and several features will be disabled via software (including our onboard music streaming service, navigation with live traffic visualization, and heated seats). Similar to other software-limited vehicles produced in the past, Standard customers will have the option to upgrade to a Standard Plus at any time. Similarly, anyone who has already bought Standard Plus and wants to convert to Standard is welcome to do so, and we will provide a refund for the difference in cost.

So Model 3 Standard owners will be able to upgrade later, thus getting more choice.

Only an idiot would buy a standard over standard plus

With 6:1 ratio in favour of plus, few out there

Guess we will see the real demand for electric cars/Tesla now with standard range plus available

VW etc will be watching with interest

Dont think Tesla demand will be massive

Also don't think electric car demand is a big as we think

Autogiants will be proved right with slow approach unfortunately for Tesla

Shefwedfan

TCP/IP wrote: »

Interesting that no one has commented that I believe Tesla with be swallowed up by a large automaker or tech giant due to financial difficulties.
I really can't see anything else in the future for Tesla if not an automaker that buys them it will be Apple/Amazon or the likes.

Even as an Apple fan I can see Tesla been a perfect purchase for them as they continue to move into the world of automotive.
Also for Apple is a perfect fit as a populist brand. Just look at the EV threads all EV fans given the choice would like a Tesla, could Apple be the answer to Elon's problems.

I said this numerous times that Tesla will end up getting bought out....no idea who. In reality Musk flogged off Paypal when he got offered enough money and went onto another project. It could get very boring very quickly for him when he spends most of his days with his twitter account full of people complaining because XYZ is gone wrong in their car....


Sell off the car division and keep the space division....that a lot more interesting

Zenith74

Shefwedfan wrote: »

The IT startup companies mentioned could run because they had small overheads. A few guys with the cost to run a PC/server and then get product to market and watch it grow. Only once it started to turn a profit did they need to hire more people.....Microsoft/Facebook/Amazon/Watsapp/Spotify/Twitter etc etc etc.....so no Tesla is not like these companies at all

What you're talking about there is extremely rare these days for growth companies. Of the ones you've mentioned in your last few posts, Microsoft is maybe the only one who made profits early and could grow organically without taking in external funding to cover the gap. All the rest took in very significant funding rounds along the way because they weren't making enough money, exactly the same as Tesla. Uber and Amazon are two of the most commonly cited examples of this in funding of growth business discussions.

I do think you're right though that what Tesla are trying to do is significantly more capital intensive than what Uber/Spotify/Twitter/Facebook needed to do to grow, and it's not as easy for Tesla to flex their overhead up/down compared to companies that can just let staff go or take on more.

Dont be at yourself

Shefwedfan wrote: »

That is not what was posted. The post was that Tesla could continue to run and run without making profits. This is not correct. Tesla need to turn a profit...make a turnover because they have to pay employees.....

Profit is calculated after costs like payroll, but that's besides the point in any case. If they need it, Tesla will easily raise money from the markets to find their growth -- either through a share issue, a bond issue, or from the likes of the Saudis.

They'll easily raise money because the company is clearly still in growth stage with a substantial headstart in key area of future mobility -- battery tech, manufacture & supply, autonomous driving, charging infastructure, and fleet connectivity. Their work in these areas is much more significant to their valuation than current quarter margins or profitability.

Again, I'm not a Tesla cheerleader by any means, but it's nonsense to evaluate Tesla as any old motor company.

Shefwedfan

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Profit is calculated after costs like payroll, but that's besides the point in any case. If they need it, Tesla will easily raise money from the markets to find their growth -- either through a share issue, a bond issue, or from the likes of the Saudis.

They'll easily raise money because the company is clearly still in growth stage with a substantial headstart in key area of future mobility -- battery tech, manufacture & supply, autonomous driving, charging infastructure, and fleet connectivity. Their work in these areas is much more significant to their valuation than current quarter margins or profitability.

Again, I'm not a Tesla cheerleader by any means, but it's nonsense to evaluate Tesla as any old motor company.

Easily raise money from markets??? first time I heard that....VW, BMW, Volvo etc are all aout to hit the market, the buzz is now around Volvo

Tesla try to raise money with those companies out in market place and see how easy people want to invest money, people dont throw good money after bad.

Complain about big car companies but they know their market. Tesla are selling a car into the US market which buys SUV, when they finally get it to Europe they have no RHD model so they miss the 2nd biggest market in Europe. These are silly mistakes which I hope they can recover from.....

Take VW launch, a car in Europe which will be available in RHD/LHD at the same launch, a Crossover in US and not bother even bringing the car model over.....they might be old and boring but they know how to sell a car and keep costs down

ted1

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I said this numerous times that Tesla will end up getting bought out....no idea who. In reality Musk flogged off Paypal when he got offered enough money and went onto another project. It could get very boring very quickly for him when he spends most of his days with his twitter account full of people complaining because XYZ is gone wrong in their car....


Sell off the car division and keep the space division....that a lot more interesting

You are forgetting the energy business. That’s booming.


Where are other companies as regards self driving?

With the lease options what VAT would be payable 0, 13.5 or 23%?

Also on what price is it applied ?

Mike9832

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Easily raise money from markets??? first time I heard that....VW, BMW, Volvo etc are all aout to hit the market, the buzz is now around Volvo

Tesla try to raise money with those companies out in market place and see how easy people want to invest money, people dont throw good money after bad.

Complain about big car companies but they know their market. Tesla are selling a car into the US market which buys SUV, when they finally get it to Europe they have no RHD model so they miss the 2nd biggest market in Europe. These are silly mistakes which I hope they can recover from.....

Take VW launch, a car in Europe which will be available in RHD/LHD at the same launch, a Crossover in US and not bother even bringing the car model over.....they might be old and boring but they know how to sell a car and keep costs down

Don't normally agree with you re Tesla, but your correct here

Tesla have shown all their cards now, they've thrown everything at it

Big bad sharks like VW are circling, waiting them out

Old diesel

Teslas level of progress in 10 years in terms of products etc is much better then anyone else ever managed in the industry.

Yes I know - Lexus with the LS400 - BUT that was a brand and car delivered by the existing big experienced Toyota company.

Tesla has its faults and flaws but the drive to knock em down is very frustrating.

TCP/IP

Old diesel wrote: »

Teslas level of progress in 10 years in terms of products etc is much better then anyone else ever managed in the industry.

Yes I know - Lexus with the LS400 - BUT that was a brand and car delivered by the existing big experienced Toyota company.

Tesla has its faults and flaws but the drive to knock em down is very frustrating.

It’s not knocking it’s just a fact Elon will make a personal fortune when he sells out to one of the large tech companies. Apple have to buy them to continue their growth strategy moving forward.

Dont be at yourself

Here we go:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1116729797239902208

TCP/IP

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

Here we go:

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1116729797239902208

What about RHD cars?

grogi

TCP/IP wrote: »

What about RHD cars?

Typo

hatrack

TCP/IP wrote: »

What about RHD cars?

https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1116765835870134272?s=21

AidenL

Has anyone put a deposit on one of these yet? Or is everyone holding out to see what happens.

I see they do trade ins, but that's a leap of faith, you'd be a hostage to a bad deal when a deposit will have been placed.

Mike9832

AidenL wrote: »

Has anyone put a deposit on one of these yet? Or is everyone holding out to see what happens.

I see they do trade ins, but that's a leap of faith, you'd be a hostage to a bad deal when a deposit will have been placed.

I've a deposit over 2 years now, closer to 3 even at this stage

Probably better selling privately if you can, Tesla will just try other garages for you, doubt you will get a great deal on trade in

Will see how VW do with ID range

Everything else out there from Nissan, Kia, Hyundai is dated tech/over priced

VW or Tesla for me sadly

Would love something like a Focus ST EV

No interest in saloon car like Model 3, but have to buy something

Shefwedfan

AidenL wrote: »

Has anyone put a deposit on one of these yet? Or is everyone holding out to see what happens.

I see they do trade ins, but that's a leap of faith, you'd be a hostage to a bad deal when a deposit will have been placed.

If you check out any of those carsforcash sites that are popping up, they will give you a price for your car.That is what Tesla will more or less offer you

AidenL

Mike9832 wrote: »

I've a deposit over 2 years now, closer to 3 even at this stage

Probably better selling privately if you can, Tesla will just try other garages for you, doubt you will get a great deal on trade in

Will see how VW do with ID range

Everything else out there from Nissan, Kia, Hyundai is dated tech/over priced

VW or Tesla for me sadly

Would love something like a Focus ST EV

No interest in saloon car like Model 3, but have to buy something

ID, Model 3 or Volvo Polestar are all appealing to me.

I like the performance ability of the Tesla tho.

AidenL

Watched some reviews on Fully Charged.

I’m actually quite keen and interested in one of these now.

unkel

Standard range plus (RWD) now available in Europe. According to Nyland, it's about 10% more expensive than Kona and has about 10% less range. That would make it about €40k over here. Autopilot is now standard. Not an optional extra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzMSKcQgnTA

0-100km/h in 5.6s. Can use both the Tesla superchargers and Ionity and other (like ESB) CCS chargers. I must say a very compelling proposition.

JPA

If you're in the 40k+ price bracket and looking for an EV it's a complete no brainer for me. Absolutely miles ahead of everything else. Literally.

AidenL

unkel wrote: »

Standard range plus (RWD) now available in Europe. According to Nyland, it's about 10% more expensive than Kona and has about 10% less range. That would make it about €40k over here. Autopilot is now standard. Not an optional extra.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzMSKcQgnTA

0-100km/h in 5.6s. Can use both the Tesla superchargers and Ionity and other (like ESB) CCS chargers. I must say a very compelling proposition.

If I lands at that, it’s cheap. I’d not hesitate.

unkel

JPA wrote: »

If you're in the 40k+ price bracket and looking for an EV it's a complete no brainer for me.

I reckon it's more of a game changer than that. Over say 5 years it will easily save you the guts of €15k in fuel, tax, maintenance and depreciation compared to an ICE car.

So now we are comparing buying a €40k Tesla Model 3 with say the cheapest Toyota Corolla (€26k). Who in their right mind would prefer the Toyota for the same total cost of ownership?

josip

Very reliable them Toyotas all the same

unkel

Not completely sure but from memory Tesla have a 4 year warranty and 8 year on the drivetrain and battery and Toyota only have a 3 year warranty.

Toyota still do not sell EVs. Which is pretty absurd. If they keep that up it wouldn't surprise me if they'd be gone within the next decade...

That fool TD from Kerry (an embarrassment to Ireland) is going to be very upset that Toyota don't do diesel any more

embraer170

The LR RWD is apparently available off menu for €4000 more than the SR+, and also comes with the premium audio/connectivity.

Although far more than I want to spend on a car, it is still a very tempting option to replace my old diesel 3 series (e90 generation).

Old diesel

unkel wrote: »

JPA wrote: »

If you're in the 40k+ price bracket and looking for an EV it's a complete no brainer for me.

I reckon it's more of a game changer than that. Over say 5 years it will easily save you the guts of €15k in fuel, tax, maintenance and depreciation compared to an ICE car.

So now we are comparing buying a €40k Tesla Model 3 with say the cheapest Toyota Corolla (€26k). Who in their right mind would prefer the Toyota for the same total cost of ownership?

Mary from down the road is totally in her right mind but will have the Toyota because.....

1) the local dealer can service it....

2) John down the pub tells her the Teslas are "always going wrong". She trusts John.

3) she knows the Toyota well having driven them all her motoring life.

4) The Tesla performance is much more then she needs.

5) she also trusts ICE cars.

Old diesel

It's still a bit early for the non enthusiasts to embrace Tesla as an actual option.

A lot of what makes a Tesla cool is stuff that a non enthusiast isn't interested in

These drivers think that a 1.7 diesel Tucson is fast enough.

They just want to listen to Ryan Tubrity not engage ludicrous mode.

The Tesla needs to be fashionable to own to bring in the masses.

Idbatterim

unkel wrote: »

Not completely sure but from memory Tesla have a 4 year warranty and 8 year on the drivetrain and battery and Toyota only have a 3 year warranty.

Toyota still do not sell EVs. Which is pretty absurd. If they keep that up it wouldn't surprise me if they'd be gone within the next decade...

That fool TD from Kerry (an embarrassment to Ireland) is going to be very upset that Toyota don't do diesel any more

Indeed. The “craven leprechaun “ won’t be happy at all!