Do you support multiculturalism in Europe?(No news dumps)

Eugene Norman

Because some extrapolations are bogus doesn't make all extrapolations bogus.
If your arguing from an animated TV show you don't have much of an argument.

dav3

enricoh wrote: »

You believe it has zero credibility - your opinion.
Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

It is my opinion and the opinion of many others. Unidentified and unpublished research from a different country would have zero credibility in many people's eyes.

enricoh wrote: »

Do you believe that over 60% of fingals social housing list are foreign. Or was that figure made up by people who are, well , you know...

I have no idea what you're talking about, I never commented on housing lists. But send me a link to the figures and I'll take a look at it if you like.

Dyr

Europe has always been full of fordiners as far as I can tell


"Insular" is based on the latin for Island for a reason. Something our continental chums don't get is Ireland and the UK do not have the same underlying problem that they do with borders and don't require their solutions. I also expect it's something they're fairly envious of, mainly because panzers don't float

We should always reserve the right to roll up the drawbridge, so to speak, because we can. The euros can't... so their bellyaching about it is disingenuous.

Cultural diversity, its grand. Add's variety, good for peoples outlook. Multiculturalism is an awful idea though. Everywhere is the same, everywhere is nowhere, a peoples republic of nothing. An idea that only Marxists and Neo Liberals could warm too.

Anything Peter Sutherland is enthusiastic about is a bad idea

fatknacker

I don't know why people think our culture will be washed away, if anything it flourishes when we have people to show it off to and to redefine our own identity. No one in Ireland gave a hoot in the 1950's when it surely was at its most stagnant, but for the few alcoholic writers. And they only existed because it was so friggin bleak and there was sweet f.a else to do but drink and scribe.

riffmongous

Eugene Norman wrote: »

Because some extrapolations are bogus doesn't make all extrapolations bogus.
If your arguing from an animated TV show you don't have much of an argument.

Well I can't have an argument about it cause the guy never even identified the research (I wonder why), the cartoon covers the danger of extrapolations though

Iwasfrozen

I voted yes, globalization is inevitable progress for the human race. In a few hundred years we'll look back on ethno-nationalism as being quaint but backward.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I voted yes, globalization is inevitable progress for the human race. In a few hundred years we'll look back on ethno-nationalism as being quaint but backward.

I think we'll miss the nation state as a fount of stability.

homerjay2005

vibrant people that are willing to integrate and adapt somewhere to our way of life, people that can offer europe and indeed ireland their skills and help our economy - YES.

families from warn torn countries who desperately need help - YES.

people who offer this country nothing - NO.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

I think we'll miss the nation state as a fount of stability.

The nation state creates instability, look how many wars are rooted in nationalism or the belief that a particular tribe should occupy a particular land.
The whole concept of the nation state is artificial and holds back globalization anyway.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The nation state creates instability, look how many wars are rooted in nationalism or the belief that a particular tribe should occupy a particular land.
The whole concept of the nation state is artificial and holds back globalization anyway.

What is natural about globalisation (or even good about it?).

Don't confuse imperialism (the claim to other people's lands) with the self determination of the nation state. The former is anti nation state and the cause of most wars. The latter is accepted by the UN as the way states should be structured.

Where nationalism leads to instability it is because of different competing nationalities with valid historical claims to the same area, often caused by the movements of people during imperialism or colonialism - Northern Ireland and Israel.

Unstable states with seperatist movements are also multi national, by definition

Nor is nationalism dying off. The number of nations increased over the 20C, and even the UK is closer to splitting up than it ever was. Then there's the anti EU feeling across Europe.

It's in fact every other form of state except the nation state that is artificial.

Del.Monte

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I voted yes, globalization is inevitable progress for the human race. In a few hundred years we'll look back on ethno-nationalism as being quaint but backward.

What a pile of parrot droppings! Globalization is not inevitable and why would any sane person want it anyway. Free movement of people across the world will lead to us all being dragged down to the subsistence level of the Third World. If you're that enamoured by the prospect why don't you try moving to India, China or Nigeria to soak up the atmosphere before it arrives here. I realise that it's not pc to say it but I liked the country the way it used to be when we had a community rather than an economy.

Iwasfrozen

Del.Monte wrote: »

What a pile of parrot droppings! Globalization is not inevitable and why would any sane person want it anyway. Free movement of people across the world will lead to us all being dragged down to the subsistence level of the Third World. If you're that enamoured by the prospect why don't you try moving to India, China or Nigeria to soak up the atmosphere before it arrives here. I realise that it's not pc to say it but I liked the country the way it used to be when we had a community rather than an economy.

The state where Europe maintains a higher standard of living than the rest of the world is unnatural and unsustainable in the very long term. Capitalism is already rapidly increasing standards of living in China, India, Bangladesh and Indonesia.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The state where Europe maintains a higher standard of living than the rest of the world is unnatural and unsustainable in the very long term. Capitalism is already rapidly increasing standards of living in China, India, Bangladesh and Indonesia.

At the expense of the west as we have seen in Britain recently.

Del.Monte

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The state where Europe maintains a higher standard of living than the rest of the world is unnatural and unsustainable in the very long term. Capitalism is already rapidly increasing standards of living in China, India, Bangladesh and Indonesia.

What has this to do with what I stated? If, indeed, it were true the populations of those countries would stay at home and not try to migrate to Europe.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

At the expense of the west as we have seen in Britain recently.

Inevitably, yes, to an extent.

Iwasfrozen

Del.Monte wrote: »

What has this to do with what I stated? If, indeed, it were true the populations of those countries would stay at home and not try to migrate to Europe.

I'm talking very long term. Obviously in the short time migrants want to migrate here to improve their standard of living. Which is not a bad thing for the econony as it forces down wages in low skilled industry.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm talking very long term. Obviously in the short time migrants want to migrate here to improve their standard of living. Which is not a bad thing for the econony as it forces down wages in low skilled industry.

That's actually bad for the economy.

Del.Monte

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm talking very long term. Obviously in the short time migrants want to migrate here to improve their standard of living. Which is not a bad thing for the econony as it forces down wages in low skilled industry.

I'll say no more, if this is your attitude I hope that it comes back to haunt you.

Superhorse

No. Multiculturalism has failed everywhere but we seem to have a determination in Europe to destroy our own culture and way of life. Look at how Japan goes about it's affairs when it comes to protecting it's culture that's the model we should be aiming for.

Iwasfrozen

Eugene Norman wrote: »

That's actually bad for the economy.

Falling wages are bad for the economy now? Hmm that's not what my textbook in Uni said but I guess you know better than someone with a PhD in economics.

Superhorse

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm talking very long term. Obviously in the short time migrants want to migrate here to improve their standard of living. Which is not a bad thing for the econony as it forces down wages in low skilled industry.

How can I ask you is forcing down wages for low skilled workers "not a bad thing"? I'm very confused how you come to that conclusion.

Del.Monte

Superhorse wrote: »

How can I ask you is forcing down wages for low skilled workers "not a bad thing"? I'm very confused how you come to that conclusion.

It's great if your in the ruling elite of grubby European chancers like Peter Sutherland and his kind.

Del.Monte

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Falling wages are bad for the economy now? Hmm that's not what my textbook in Uni said but I guess you know better than someone with a PhD in economics.

My hero, you've a PhD in economics. Donald Trump is my junior business partner - beat that.

Iwasfrozen

Del.Monte wrote: »

My hero, you've a PhD in economics. Donald Trump is my junior business partner - beat that.

No. My lecturer did. Apologies for any confusion.

Superhorse

Del.Monte wrote: »

It's great if your in the ruling elite of grubby European chancers like Peter Sutherland and his kind.

Peter "I care about the refugees and I have no vested interest" Sutherland I think you mean.

wakka12

Im fine with it, I just think it should be on a smaller scale. Like I thought it was sad when I went to London or Paris that I met very few actual british or french people, most of the people in the centre working there were Middle eastern/African/South asian..realised the only thing that differentiated the cities from other cities in the world was the architecture

Del.Monte

wakka12 wrote: »

Im fine with it, I just think it should be on a smaller scale. Like I thought it was sad when I went to London or Paris that I met very few actual british or french people, most of the people in the centre working there were Middle eastern/African/South asian..realised the only thing that differentiated the cities from other cities in the world was the architecture

This is very woolly - what on earth do you mean?

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Falling wages are bad for the economy now? Hmm that's not what my textbook in Uni said but I guess you know better than someone with a PhD in economics.

Your economics books never got around to demand? Of course falling wages are bad for the economy. It's a sign of economic failure. Like in recessions.

Eugene Norman

Del.Monte wrote: »

My hero, you've a PhD in economics. Donald Trump is my junior business partner - beat that.

He certainly doesn't. And i doubt his lecturer said what this guy thinks he said either.

Annasopra

Shenshen wrote: »

You'd be surprised how quickly people will start differenciating between "our foreigners" and "foreign foreigners". I noticed that a few weeks ago when talking to my gran in Germany, a prime case of early-onset geriatric racist.
Nobody is ever going to be entirely satified, mind you. When my grandmother started being racist, she had to make do with hating "Prussians" - anybody from further up north who had moved south. It was only later she got Italians to be racist at, and later Turks. Now all these are classed as "local", and she's firmly sticking to her prejudices when it comes to anybody new arriving.

Oh I know - in Ireland it's like - we'll take Polish cause they're white but not Nigerians

conorhal

Multiculturalism creates conflict.
What do nations that sit in near permenent states of civil war, or labour under the yolk of brutal dictatorships have in common? Most wars in the world at the moment are a product of mult-ethnic, tribal and multicultural societies in which the disagreeing parties can find no cohesive common values to create a stable civil society and often the only thing that keeps a lid on civil war in many other nations is the authoritarianism of a dictator. That's history's lesson on multiculturalism which some seem blithely determined to ignore.

Already 'multiculturalism is walking us into a militarised security state, because authoritarianism is what you get when you have no social cohesion, that's the price it seems to have to pay for multiculturalism.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Society is not lego, you can't simply plonk it together like so may lego bricks.
That thing that makes us, in the West, better than other places is not our tolerance, but is in fact the presumption of tolerance from all parties in a given social interaction and the full expectation of its reciprocity. Remove the expectation of reciprocity and it will not end well. Society is only coherent where there is near unanimity on the metavalues that enable all the apparent discord in our society. Our society is fractious but it works because the diversity of opinion is rooted in a common account of personhood and citizenship.
That account, which has evolved from as far back as the Greeks, is not universally held. It might be the dominant account and maybe the most popular account, but there are billions who don't see the world in the same way.

The consequences of destabilising this world view will be profound, especially when it comes to acceptable ways to disagree in society. We should be thinking very carefully about the consequences of our actions and we should remember that we have a duty to preserve our inheritance. All short term acts of compassion should be accompanied by an awareness of what we can not afford to lose and what we must in turn hand on to our children, which will be nothing but autocratic rule keeping a lid on bubbling civil conflict if we insist on proceeding with the madness of the multikult deconstruction of the soverign state.
Where we are took several thousand years of societal evolution, from Greek democracy, to Roman civil law, from the Magna carta to the Enlightenment which inspired the principles of the French and American revolutions, the collapse of Empires and the evolution of modern democracy. There have been leaps forward and faltering steps, falls backward and states falling to their knees and rising again.
The determination to squander all that is baffling to me.

mariaalice

My person belief is that western liberal democracies are superior as a structure for human society. Multiculturalism is an attempt to be non judgemental about other cultures and see all cultures as equal its an attempt to live in value free society.

Reasonable attempts should be make to accommodate other cultures but not if they conflict with western liberal democratic values of Europe.

One of my daughters is friends with someone from a Pakistani background and the friend will ask that she does not bring alcohol to her house and if they go out the friend wont eat pork to me that is entirely reasonable.

allibastor

If the people coming in are willing to adapt also to our culture then yes.

If they are coming over to get benefits and to moan that we dont understand them, all the while not making ANY effort to integrate, then no.

Unfortunately I have seen more of the latter then the former here, my next door neighbor is a Polish guy, sound out and makes a big effort to chat with his neighbors and so on. We have another I think Lithuanian family up the road who refuse to mingle or do anything with anyone, despite people really trying. I mean inviting kids to parties, family over for BBQ etc.

maudgonner

allibastor wrote: »

We have another I think Lithuanian family up the road who refuse to mingle or do anything with anyone, despite people really trying. I mean inviting kids to parties, family over for BBQ etc.

I'm Irish and I don't know if I'd join in either - some people like their privacy. They may have plenty of friends elsewhere. Why should they have to socialise with their neighbours?

Kev_2012

BlibBlab wrote: »

Canada maybe? Although their treatment of and attitude towards natives isn't great

Probably because they get langers drunk and try fighting their own shadows.

Kev_2012

I don't care who moves and lives here (I actually like having people from other cultures/countries here), but if they wanna live here, they can adapt to our country, or they can p!ss off.

When I lived in Canada I did my best to adapt to how they are, even if it drove me mad sometimes.

But I don't want people coming here if they are gonna tell me how bad of a person I am because I like boozing at the weekend, share their ideals, religion, or when they hear some awful slagging going on between my friends and I.

speedboatchase

Multiculturalism is only expected of Western nations. No one cares about the monocultural societies of China, Japan, South Korea.

Maximus Alexander

BlibBlab wrote: »

I used to, or at least I did in the sense that I never really questioned it. I do find it a bit sad though that our culture and ethnicities will probably slowly disappear. Looking at the Ireland-Scotland match a few weeks back, you could pick out some people that you'd identify as looking Gaelic/Celtic, kind of like you could probably pick out a Russian with a reasonable degree of accuracy but not as distinct.

Places like North America are already big cultural melting pots. I find the idea sad that going to say Greece will just be like going to any other part of Europe, with unique ethnic groups and cultures replaced with multi-ethnic groups wherever you go. Probably won't happen fully in my lifetime unless science keeps me alive, but still it's not hard to see a time in the future when large parts of the world are basically a copy of America and the different races disappear into one mixed race.

I know I'm going to be in the minority on this, but interested to get others thoughts.

You know what I think is too often overlooked in these kinds of discussions? If we imagine an Ireland 100 years from now that, as you say, looks like America. An Ireland that's filled with black, asian, hispanic, white people and a mixture of everything in between - well some of those people in between will be your great-grandchildren. And they'll be just as much your great-grandchildren as they would have been had they been fully white 'traditional' Irish folks.

Nobody is going to come along and displace all the existing Irish people, we'll just gradually change over time. Why does that have to be a scary thing? Ireland, like pretty much every other country, has been subject to influxes from overseas over the eons and it has resulted in the Irish we have today. This will continue (admittedly perhaps at a faster pace), and what it is to be Irish, along with what an Irish person looks like, will continue to change.

Your great-grandchildren may well be mixed race, but they'll still be Irish and they'll still be your great-grandchildren. They'll just probably be better looking than they might otherwise have been.

armaghlad

speedboatchase wrote: »

Multiculturalism is only expected of Western nations. No one cares about the monocultural societies of China, Japan, South Korea.

Yeah. All that colonising centuries ago is starting to bite them in the ass. Boo hoo.

speedboatchase

allibastor wrote: »

If the people coming in are willing to adapt also to our culture then yes.

If they are coming over to get benefits and to moan that we dont understand them, all the while not making ANY effort to integrate, then no.

Unfortunately I have seen more of the latter then the former here, my next door neighbor is a Polish guy, sound out and makes a big effort to chat with his neighbors and so on. We have another I think Lithuanian family up the road who refuse to mingle or do anything with anyone, despite people really trying. I mean inviting kids to parties, family over for BBQ etc.

They don't have to do any of that. At the very least, they should get jobs and learn English. The problems arise not when migrants keep to themselves, but when they try to demand laws (or illegally practice acts) from their own culture that are incompatible with our values.

allibastor

speedboatchase wrote: »

They don't have to do any of that. At the very least, they should get jobs and learn English. The problems arise not when migrants keep to themselves, but when they try to demand laws (or illegally practice acts) from their own culture that are incompatible with our values.

I agree, I was actually speaking with my Polish neighbor about it after his house was broken into and him and the family stayed at mine for the night.

He said when he came here him and his wife had very little english, but they made a huge effort to learn. He said while he speaks Polish to his kids he also tries to them to learn English at home. He hates when his Own country folk say it is the schools jobs to teach English.

I remember the old days of the African soccer league where I live, and asking If a i could play and being looked at like a weirdo.

Del.Monte

armaghlad wrote: »

Yeah. All that colonising centuries ago is starting to bite them in the ass. Boo hoo.

You just don't get it do you? The 'them' that you quaintly refer to is YOU. Irish people will end up a minority in their own country if the likes of Peter Sutherland and Merkel have their way.

Eugene Norman

armaghlad wrote: »

Yeah. All that colonising centuries ago is starting to bite them in the ass. Boo hoo.

Nothing to do with colonisation.

Iwasfrozen

Del.Monte wrote: »

You just don't get it do you? The 'them' that you quaintly refer to is YOU. Irish people will end up a minority in their own country if the likes of Peter Sutherland and Merkel have their way.

The only thing that will change is ethnicity, culture is always in flux anyway.

What wrong with ethnic Irish being a minority? What even is an ethnic Irish as distinct to an ethnic English or Scottish person?

Del.Monte

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

The only thing that will change is ethnicity, culture is always in flux anyway.

What wrong with ethnic Irish being a minority? What even is an ethnic Irish as distinct to an ethnic English or Scottish person?

Visit the Isle of Man to get an idea where a huge influx of outsiders has left the natives. Anyway, your idea of utopia has not worked throughout Europe - is Ireland really unique?

armaghlad

Del.Monte wrote: »

You just don't get it do you? The 'them' that you quaintly refer to is YOU. Irish people will end up a minority in their own country if the likes of Peter Sutherland and Merkel have their way.

I'm already a minority in "my country".

Wibbs

armaghlad wrote: »

Yeah. All that colonising centuries ago is starting to bite them in the ass. Boo hoo.

I wondered when the oul white guilt(usually self hating with it) would come along. You do realise that Japan had an empire and China is an empire? Pretty much every broad "race" on the planet has had an empire at one time or another, but it seems only the white fellas have to wear sackcloth and ashes for it. Boo hoo indeed.

conorhal wrote:

The consequences of destabilising this world view will be profound, especially when it comes to acceptable ways to disagree in society. We should be thinking very carefully about the consequences of our actions and we should remember that we have a duty to preserve our inheritance. All short term acts of compassion should be accompanied by an awareness of what we can not afford to lose and what we must in turn hand on to our children, which will be nothing but autocratic rule keeping a lid on bubbling civil conflict if we insist on proceeding with the madness of the multikult deconstruction of the soverign state.
Where we are took several thousand years of societal evolution, from Greek democracy, to Roman civil law, from the Magna carta to the Enlightenment which inspired the principles of the French and American revolutions, the collapse of Empires and the evolution of modern democracy. There have been leaps forward and faltering steps, falls backward and states falling to their knees and rising again.
The determination to squander all that is baffling to me.

There's much I'd agree with there CH.

Billy86

Del.Monte wrote: »

You just don't get it do you? The 'them' that you quaintly refer to is YOU. Irish people will end up a minority in their own country if the likes of Peter Sutherland and Merkel have their way.

What do you mean by 'Irish people' though? If someone is born in Ireland, they are an Irish native. Citizenship eligibility varies, but if they stay here throughout their childhood to adulthood I am pretty sure getting citizenship is a given.

Billy86

Wibbs wrote: »

I wondered when the oul white guilt(usually self hating with it) would come along. You do realise that Japan had an empire and China is an empire? Pretty much every broad "race" on the planet has had an empire at one time or another, but it seems only the white fellas have to wear sackcloth and ashes for it. Boo hoo indeed.

There's much I'd agree with there CH.

China has 270 migrant workers, just shy of 20% of the population (262mn of 1.357bn).

On the flip side, Japan has kept more stubborn about letting people in, but are making a lot of noise about increasing that number greatly as they currently have the world's oldest population (25% are over 65) with all signs pointing to it just getting older and the population continuing to shrink (estimated 40% over 65 by 2060 without reform) - this plays a big role in their economy being considered a ticking time bomb.

Asaiah

I support all European cultures mixing in Europe, as we are compatible. This means white, black, asian, middle eastern etc I don't care what colour people are as long as they adopt to European Cultures when they are living in Europe.

I don't support Islamic culture becoming more prevalent in Europe as it's not compatible with many of our ideals of freedom and liberty which we fought so hard for so many hundreds of years to achieve.