Panama Papers Leak

20Cent

2.6 terabytes of documents belonging to the Panama-based law firm Mossack Fonseca which creates offshore accounts has been leaked. Showing how the wealthy hide their money including Vladimier Putin and many politicians
The Icelandic PM has been found to have been hiding money offshore and could be facing a snap election.
https://panamapapers.icij.org/

322 Irish companies named in them as well.


A light is being shone into the world of offshore finance will be interesting to see how this pans out.

20Cent

Icelandic PM just resigned.

Indian leaders and David Cameron's father included in documents.

BoJack Horseman

20Cent wrote: »

Icelandic PM just resigned.

It seems not yet (apparently some translation error?)
Though he probably will in the coming days.

20Cent

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It seems not yet (apparently some translation error?)
Though he probably will in the coming days.

Will be interesting.
Pirate Party in Iceland.
Safe haven for whistleblowers with state backed protection.

drunkmonkey

RT warning of the western media making up stories about Putin https://www.rt.com/politics/337450-putins-spokesman-warns-of-fresh/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome#.VvlNz3X5UhA.twitter

Kinda baffling there's very liitle mention of Americans in fairness to Putin.

20Cent

drunkmonkey wrote: »

RT warning of the western media making up stories about Putin https://www.rt.com/politics/337450-putins-spokesman-warns-of-fresh/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome#.VvlNz3X5UhA.twitter

Kinda baffling there's very liitle mention of Americans in fairness to Putin.

No mention of Americans yet.
They will be milking this leak for all its worth saving the best till last.

Imagine Trump or Clinton being exposed!

drunkmonkey

If the Bush's aren't involved it's all a matter.

BoJack Horseman

drunkmonkey wrote: »

RT warning of the western media making up stories about Putin https://www.rt.com/politics/337450-putins-spokesman-warns-of-fresh/?utm_source=browser&utm_medium=aplication_chrome&utm_campaign=chrome#.VvlNz3X5UhA.twitter

Remember these are the files of just 1 firm..... so it's one on several big fish facilitating this.

The other firm's creating shelf companies in the Cayman Islands or the virgin islands would have many more hornets nests waiting to be kicked.

The Russian Czar will bleat, as default.
The Guardian are nobodies lackies.... least of all the US' s.
But Vladi knows he got off easy here.
$2bn of his cronies money is chump change to what he has stashed away elsewhere.

InTheTrees

Fascinating. I hope they're quick. 2.6 Terabytes is a lot of data, it could take months to go through it all.

InTheTrees

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Kinda baffling there's very liitle mention of Americans in fairness to Putin.

The US Internal Revenue Service is an organisation that sends chills down the spine of even honest people, so i would expect they would be all over this data in a search for americans.

InTheTrees

InTheTrees wrote: »

Fascinating. I hope they're quick. 2.6 Terabytes is a lot of data, it could take months to go through it all.

They've been working on the investigation for something close to a year already.

There is data from as recent as December 2015, which means that this wasn't a data-dump and seems there's been some ongoing leaking and possibly (hopefully!) some amount of targeting of relevant files more recently.

The lack of American names is very revealing imo. There could be something bigger going on behind closed doors, would not be surprised if many many legal issues have already begun.

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Icelandic PM just resigned.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3522429/Moment-Icelandic-Prime-Minister-storms-interview-asked-hiding-millions-bank-bonds-secretive-Panama-firm-country-s-financial-collapsed.html

Very interesting.

"Leaked documents show that he and his wife, Anna Sigurlaug Palsdottir, bought offshore company Wintris in 2007, but he did not declare an interest in the company when entering parliament two years later.
After the banking meltdown, he is said to have resisted pressure from foreign creditors - including UK customers - to repay their deposits in full because it may have affected both the Icelandic banks and the value of the bonds held by Wintris."

Some of the slant on this seems to be suggesting that decisions he made as PM were influenced by his personal finances.

And here was I thinking that my friends on here were telling me that Iceland did things the right way

20Cent

Looking through the Irish contingent one name pops out.


http://offshoreleaks.icij.org/search?country=EI&q=&ppl=on&ent=on&adr=on

BoJack Horseman

20Cent wrote: »

Looking through the Irish contingent one name pops out.


http://offshoreleaks.icij.org/search?country=EI&q=&ppl=on&ent=on&adr=on

What name?

(that's a pretty good database when you click in on something.... you can see all the connections).

20Cent

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What name?

(that's a pretty good database when you click in on something.... you can see all the connections).

Nearly afraid to post it!
Triple barrel name.
First name is the English version of what he is better known as here.

Tabnabs

Ross O'Carroll Kelly? :eek:

cdeb

That link's not working.

Is the site gone?

This site can’t be reached

offshoreleaks.icij.org’s server DNS address could not be found.
DNS_PROBE_FINISHED_NXDOMAIN

BoJack Horseman

20Cent wrote: »

Nearly afraid to post it!
Triple barrel name.
First name is the English version of what he is better known as here.

Aah.... took me a while!

There is no harm in posting the name, there is no issue with libel here.

If there is coin hidden here, it will be interesting for his many, many creditors.

** Edit... and "Liam Gerard McCaffrey"....
Former director of some of the now defunct Quinn Group holdings & still a director of Quinn Insurance (as per the link?)

Why would both he & the bold 'Ignatius' both have an offshore account when the whole operation was apparently bankrupt & asset stripped to hell?

djpbarry

20Cent wrote: »

No mention of Americans yet.
They will be milking this leak for all its worth saving the best till last.

Imagine Trump or Clinton being exposed!

Would anyone really be surprised to find that Donald Trump is hiding money offshore? Would that really constitute "exposure"?

ancapailldorcha

Tabnabs wrote: »

Ross O'Carroll Kelly? :eek:

This a forum for serious discussion. Please read the charter before posting again.

20Cent

djpbarry wrote: »

Would anyone really be surprised to find that Donald Trump is hiding money offshore? Would that really constitute "exposure"?

Wouldn't be surprised at all.
But it would mean his moaning about Apple etc keeping funds away from the taxman would ring hollow. Though like he said himself he could probably shoot someone and his supporters would keep on supporting him.
He's in a category of his own beyond shame or embarrassment.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

I've deleted a few posts until we can establish what exatly is going on here. While not doubting the earnestness of the ICIJ, if their website is a bit flakey, that is not a reason to turn boards.ie into a mirror site for them.

As an aside, a few posters are coming close to speculating about specific individuals, which would breach the charter for several reasons.

BoJack Horseman

The website that 20Cent posted is back up.

My mediocre sleuthing skills come up short.
You can see that Sean Quinn (John Ignatius) & colleague Liam McCaffrey both were involved in this "Soverint Holdings Ltd"

But I cannot find anything about this entity.

StupidLikeAFox

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

My mediocre sleuthing skills come up short.
You can see that Sean Quinn (John Ignatius) & colleague Liam McCaffrey both were involved in this "Soverint Holdings Ltd"

But I cannot find anything about this entity.

They were name checked in a few articles alright, seems like this part isnt much of a revelation

https://www.google.ie/search?q=%22Soverint%22+Holdings+Ltd&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=gIkCV96gJ8aOsAGYqYOYDQ#safe=off&q=%22Soverint%22+Holdings+Ltd

BoJack Horseman

There's me thinking there was something new here.... alas, no.

armabelle

When I read about the economic crisis and how many people it affected and how nobody really took the plunge for it (except honest hardworking taxpayers) and then I read this Panama Paper it makes me sick to my very core that everybody is so darn corrupt. I was taught to be honest in life and to pay your bills on time, pay your taxes, work hard etc but the way I see it as i get older I begin to worry that this is really fair. I mean look at all this small group of dishonest elite (politicians especially) getting rich while we are all slaving away trying to pay the mortgage. Doesn't anybody else get angry...like REALLY angry?

NIMAN

Yeah but what are you gonna do about it?

armabelle

NIMAN wrote: »

Yeah but what are you gonna do about it?

Not sure... you know when I think about organizations like the mafia... I don't actually blame them for being mafia in such a corrupt world. Obviously you cant go killing people but I wonder if it is foolish to try to make it in this world by being honest. I know there are people that do make it being honest but lately everywhere I look I just see corruption.

In history, there would have been a revolt by now. Have we become too domesticated in our modern day lives? I suppose we have homes, families and appliances so life is not in a dire state enough for us to revolt so we just take the corruption and pay our taxes

Bob24

20Cent wrote: »

No mention of Americans yet.
They will be milking this leak for all its worth saving the best till last.

Imagine Trump or Clinton being exposed!

Am I a conspiracy theorist if I wonder why out of about 60 countries listed on the website, there is nothing related to the US?

I've not doubt the leak is genuine, but could it be a selective one to incriminate some enemies in the middle of a larger crowd?

Godge

20Cent wrote: »

Nearly afraid to post it!
Triple barrel name.
First name is the English version of what he is better known as here.

Strange that man always gets an easy ride from the press.

Dohnjoe

Bob24 wrote: »

Am I a conspiracy theorist if I wonder why out of about 60 countries listed on the website, there is nothing related to the US?

I've not doubt the leak is genuine, but could it be a selective one to incriminate some enemies in the middle of a larger crowd?

Mossack Fonseca are one of four large law firms in the business, Americans may have favored one of the other three.

Either way, the whole offshore industry is under threat, people on all sides will be scrambling to cover themselves

K-9

Apparently Cameron's fathers affairs are private, despite his sons inheritance.

Chance for Corbyn to make hay out of this one.

Sam Russell

100 years ago, we did revolt.

Bob24

Bob24 wrote: »

Am I a conspiracy theorist if I wonder why out of about 60 countries listed on the website, there is nothing related to the US?

I've not doubt the leak is genuine, but could it be a selective one to incriminate some enemies in the middle of a larger crowd?

Looks like I wasn't the only one asking and the editors are now implying US related stuff is coming next: https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/716771686482202625

20Cent

Irish Times seem to be milking the stories
(don't think its a bad thing).
Front pages filled for them the next few while at least.


Panama Papers firm linked to legal fight over Seán Quinn property
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/panama-papers-firm-linked-to-legal-fight-over-se%C3%A1n-quinn-property-1.2599638


Good opportunity for our new government to come out fighting for the regular citizen.*




*this will not happen though.

Overheal

As far as the US is concerned, Bernie saw this coming when we entered into a trade deal with them.

BoJack Horseman

"Panamwaaa is a world leadaaa"

That's New England right there.

Bernie could well be describing liechtenstein, Monaco, Andorra etc.... tiny economies, secretive & aloof... but all part of the EU club somehow.

El_Duderino 09

armabelle wrote:

When I read about the economic crisis and how many people it affected and how nobody really took the plunge for it (except honest hardworking taxpayers) and then I read this Panama Paper it makes me sick to my very core that everybody is so darn corrupt. I was taught to be honest in life and to pay your bills on time, pay your taxes, work hard etc but the way I see it as i get older I begin to worry that this is really fair. I mean look at all this small group of dishonest elite (politicians especially) getting rich while we are all slaving away trying to pay the mortgage.

Doesn't anybody else get angry...like REALLY angry?

It ftp ends on the way you look at it. We're you happier before these leaked papers? And, would you prefer if the papers weren't published.

I look at this like the Google tax settlement in the UK in January. The narrative was outrage at first? Then acceptance that what Google had done IS legal. Then 'what can be done about it?'

I think the narrative of this story will take the same arc. In this situation there are blatant examples of fraud which is different from the Google tax avoidance.

The best thing about the Google style ment is that it made the average person on the street, aware of tax avoidance and how it works. That puts political pressure to change the laws and make this type of thing illegal. Panama is a Republic and they have the right to make their own rules. But British overseas territories like the Bahamas and British virgin islands can be ruled dire tly from London and there is pressure building to make sure that laws change.

This leak is a major event and might well lead to significant changes.

20Cent

Story keeps getting better.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-intervened-stop-tax-crackdown-offshore-trusts-panama-papers-eu-a6972311.html


David Cameron was today accused of "completely undermining" the Government's claims to be tough on tax dodgers after the Prime Minister personally intervened to try to prevent EU transparency rules affecting offshore tax trusts.

He also has just admitted that he had a stake in his fathers offshore fund.

El_Duderino 09

20Cent wrote: »

Story keeps getting better.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-intervened-stop-tax-crackdown-offshore-trusts-panama-papers-eu-a6972311.html


David Cameron was today accused of "completely undermining" the Government's claims to be tough on tax dodgers after the Prime Minister personally intervened to try to prevent EU transparency rules affecting offshore tax trusts.

He also has just admitted that he had a stake in his fathers offshore fund.

Christ on a bike. George Osborne also instructed conservative MEPs to vote against rules that would have clamped down on tax havens (including British Overseas Territories and Crown Dependencies such as Jersey and Isle of Mann.

I haven't seen him admit a stake in his dad's business.

To be fair he has been good on tax avoidance in the last parliament and they are consulting on fairly progressive legislation to tackle import VAT fraud. He just can't turn on his peers though - the mega wealthy.

Dohnjoe

I'd be skeptical on this

There's a huge wave of populism now that offshores=bad, and any previous or current connections, no matter how vague or distant are political hot potatoes

+Everyone will insert their narratives, but I would presume this move was for economic reasons. Britain has a lot of offshore entities. There are perfectly sound and legal reasons to have such offshores, and also to protect them.. but for now the details don't matter

El_Duderino 09

Dohnjoe wrote: »

I'd be skeptical on this

There's a huge wave of populism now that offshores=bad, and any previous or current connections, no matter how vague or distant are political hot potatoes

+Everyone will insert their narratives, but I would presume this move was for economic reasons. Britain has a lot of offshore entities. There are perfectly sound and legal reasons to have such offshores, and also to protect them.. but for now the details don't matter

But in this case there are emails talking about setting up companies and finding false directors as named beneficiaries. That's not simply 'offshore' that's fraud for the expressed purpose of tax evasion. There are plenty of accounts that are perfectly compliant but the main purpose of using Panama is to avail of the secrecy beneficial ownership through the laws and use of bearer bonds. The main reason to want to conceal beneficial ownership is to deny ownership.

We know of some explicit cases of fraud but it would be wrong to assume everyone is guilty of evasion. Luckily, I haven't seen anyone suggest that everyone with a Panamanian account is a fraudster.

Dohnjoe

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

But in this case there are emails talking about setting up companies and finding false directors as named beneficiaries. That's not simply 'offshore' that's fraud for the expressed purpose of tax evasion.

It's currently quite legal not to have to disclose beneficial ownership details and to use separate nominees in many these places

Unfortunately its a doubled edged sword, that same secrecy is being used to mask tax evasion, fraud, sanctions busting, etc

Ah, personally, I think the cons outweigh the pros, I get the feeling this is the start of an unraveling process... next stop, tax havens in the US - Delaware, Nevada, Wyoming, where you need more docs to get a library card than set up a company

El_Duderino 09

Dohnjoe wrote:

Unfortunately its a doubled edged sword, that same secrecy is being used to mask tax evasion, fraud, sanctions busting, etc

There are ligitimate reasons but few of them are necessary to run the a business. ICIJ estimate that 20% of the cases they analysed have no sign of fraud. That's not enough to justify the laws as they are.

Dohnjoe wrote:

Ah, personally, I think the cons outweigh the pros, I get the feeling this is the start of an unraveling process... next stop, tax havens in the US - Delaware, Nevada, Wyoming, where you need more docs to get a library card than set up a company

With a bit of luck. That's the way it's going.

These laws need every country to get on board. Everyone wants to be the lowest common denominator. They all want everyone ELSE to sign up so they can be the one that is used for fraud. If it happens it will be a slow process. It has been happening for the last few years though.

Billy86

Bob24 wrote: »

Looks like I wasn't the only one asking and the editors are now implying US related stuff is coming next: https://twitter.com/mathewi/status/716771686482202625

Makes you wonder if they are waiting for the presidential primaries to finish, and who may be heavily involved if that is the case. If that were it, it would most likely be Trump and/or Clinton, but who knows (yet)...

Count Dooku

finally revealed - #panamapapers was done by evil Putin :rolleyes:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2016/04/09/the-not-completely-crazy-theory-that-russia-leaked-panama-papers/bGfl3yPwoTbEv4eec5k5zN/story.html

Elmer Blooker

The Panama Papers? I've forgotten already.
Apparently 185 journalists in 65 countries "worked" for a year on this "major story" that has now sunk quicker than the Titanic!
Says it all about the sorry state of "journalism" these days.

Sam Russell

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The Panama Papers? I've forgotten already.
Apparently 185 journalists in 65 countries "worked" for a year on this "major story" that has now sunk quicker than the Titanic!
Says it all about the sorry state of "journalism" these days.

Or have the stories been spiked?

Cameron did not say who valued the shares in Blairmore, nor who they were sold to - just that no tax was payable on the deal. His mothers generosity was also not subject to tax.

Convenient that.

El_Duderino 09

Elmer Blooker wrote:

The Panama Papers? I've forgotten already. Apparently 185 journalists in 65 countries "worked" for a year on this "major story" that has now sunk quicker than the Titanic! Says it all about the sorry state of "journalism" these days.

It's all over the news. It can't be breaking news for ever. Try a good news site and type in 'panama papers'.

A small selection of important developments from the last couple of days include:
The OECD are very active daily, French and German finance ministers are calling for joint action on transparency. UK treasury announced automatic information sharing of beneficial ownership with 5 major EUROPEAN ciuntries. Nauru and one of the others finally signed up to automatic information sharing due to start next year ( now only panama Bahrain and US are yet to sign).

The most significant things are the fact that joy soap has an opinion on tax avoidance and, secrecy and beneficial ownership in tax havens that they didn't have 2 weeks ago. And the fact that it has forced countries to work together.

What do you mean exactly? Is it just not being shoved in your face or do you not think those developments are significant?

El_Duderino 09

Sam Russell wrote:

Cameron did not say who valued the shares in Blairmore, nor who they were sold to - just that no tax was payable on the deal. His mothers generosity was also not subject to tax.

It would be bang out of order to saycwho he sold the shares to.

I think the gift from his mother is not subject to tax if she doesn't die for 7 years. I might have picked that up wrong though because it sounds crazy. I think it's to do with the difference between a gift to children and inheritance tax.

fran17

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

The Panama Papers? I've forgotten already.
Apparently 185 journalists in 65 countries "worked" for a year on this "major story" that has now sunk quicker than the Titanic!
Says it all about the sorry state of "journalism" these days.

"Journalism" indeed,not that we needed confirmation but this really is collusion,distortion of fact and unethical behaviour in journalism at its very worst.
This consortium of 185 journalists who distributed this hack,the ICIJ,is deeply entwined and funded by those who will stop at nothing to preserve the status quo regarding US influence and power in the world.There based in DC,funded by the ford foundation(CIA links) and George Soros's Open Society Foundation.They in turn acquired the help of the OCCRP,to filter out eastern European and Eurasian information.The OCCRP are funded by USAID(CIA front) and our good friend George Soros again.Mr.Soros being the financier of the leftover cold war propaganda tool that is Radio Free Europe.
This whole episode was orchestrated by the neo cons in Washington and Langley to discredit the perceived "enemies of the west"/"enemies of freedom".