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unsure of tenant rights when house is being sold

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  • 03-04-2016 10:28pm
    #1
    thegreatiam
    Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭


    we've been renting for around 3 years and have no plans of leaving, our rent is pretty cheap for the area but the flats aren't exactly high standard.

    However, our landlord has hinted that she will be selling when some renovation work is finished.

    Our problem is she has only recently made a rent increase so, to my knowledge, she cannot increase again for around 2 years.

    Will any new landlord be able to increase the rent when they take over? or are they under the same restriction? I'm assuming the first as we signed with a different person so the new landlord can up the rent as and when they choose.

    is it common practice to make all tenants sign new contracts? I'm sure that if we had to sign for an increase in rent at least 80% of the tenants (there are 10 flats) would leave.

    if the house is sold what is the minimum notice we have of the change, and can that be bypassed with change in owner? ie, if it's 3 months and she sells in 2 will we be paying our current rent for the full 3 months?

    any advice or info appriciated


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    #2
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,280 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    To be honest, when the house is sold, you'll most likely be leaving as banks want vacant possession. So I doubt rent price agreements etc.. are going to come in to it.

    It would be completely up to the buyer to take you back or not, or they may even want the house to live in themselves. Id start with the idea that you'll have to leave the property.


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    #3
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    A landlord hinting that they will be selling is giving you a heads up to look for another place to live.

    To clarify, selling=eviction in landlord speak in the vast majority of cases.


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    #4
    Immaculata
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Immaculata


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    Our problem is she has only recently made a rent increase so, to my knowledge, she cannot increase again for around 2 years.

    Yes, that's true.
    thegreatiam wrote: »
    Will any new landlord be able to increase the rent when they take over?

    Yes, they will be able to increase the rent, as far as I know.
    thegreatiam wrote: »
    or are they under the same restriction? I'm assuming the first as we signed with a different person so the new landlord can up the rent as and when they choose.

    Exactly. That thing where the old landlord can't up your rent without a good reason for the next two years isn't transferable. You can't move somewhere else and then say to your new landlord, my rent was increased less than two years ago so you can't increase it now. And it works the other way round, too. As you suspect.
    thegreatiam wrote: »
    if the house is sold what is the minimum notice we have of the change, and can that be bypassed with change in owner? ie, if it's 3 months and she sells in 2 will we be paying our current rent for the full 3 months?

    If the house sells and you acquire a new landlord, he or she may leave all the tenants on their current terms, but it's unlikely. If the house is sold, presumably the owner will let you know about that, but there's no minimum period of notice that they have to give you. I would suggest, to be safe, that you start looking for another place to live as you might be asked to leave soon. It's a good time to tidy up if necessary and get rid of excess items if any, so you are in good shape if you do have to move, and also to save as much as you can, as if your current place has a relatively low rent, you may need to bump up the amount of deposit you'll need to have on hand.

    I think the most likely scenario is that if the house is sold, you will have to move, as property purchasers usually want vacant possession. At least your landlord is giving you a bit of warning. Selling a property is one of the ways that a landlord can legitimately end a lease, so it's probably not what you want to hear, but it's very likely that a move is on the cards.


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    #5
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Immaculata wrote: »
    Yes, they will be able to increase the rent, as far as I know.

    On what basis is the existing tenancy terminated and a new one started if the tenant is not moving?
    Immaculata wrote: »
    Exactly. That thing where the old landlord can't up your rent without a good reason for the next two years isn't transferable. You can't move somewhere else and then say to your new landlord, my rent was increased less than two years ago so you can't increase it now. And it works the other way round, too. As you suspect.

    What??? See my previous question.
    Immaculata wrote: »
    If the house is sold, presumably the owner will let you know about that, but there's no minimum period of notice that they have to give you

    Nonsense. There are very strictly defined notice periods.


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    #6
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    we've been renting for around 3 years and have no plans of leaving, our rent is pretty cheap for the area but the flats aren't exactly high standard.

    However, our landlord has hinted that she will be selling when some renovation work is finished.

    Our problem is she has only recently made a rent increase so, to my knowledge, she cannot increase again for around 2 years.

    Will any new landlord be able to increase the rent when they take over? or are they under the same restriction? I'm assuming the first as we signed with a different person so the new landlord can up the rent as and when they choose.

    is it common practice to make all tenants sign new contracts? I'm sure that if we had to sign for an increase in rent at least 80% of the tenants (there are 10 flats) would leave.

    if the house is sold what is the minimum notice we have of the change, and can that be bypassed with change in owner? ie, if it's 3 months and she sells in 2 will we be paying our current rent for the full 3 months?

    any advice or info appriciated

    Do you have a lease? If you have a fixed term lease the new owner needs to abide by it. If you do not you can be asked to vacate with 12 weeks notice. 12 weeks is your minimum notice regardless of the house being sold or not. You can both agree to reduce it if you like.

    Your rent in that specific tenancy cannot be increased for 2 years. However if you have no lease and a new owner takes you on it is in effect a new rental and they can set the rent there and then, which then kicks in the 2 year no review period.

    Having a lease or being on part 4 are what makes the big difference here.


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    #7
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    OP, if the property is going to be sold and the landlord required vacant possession, you are entitled to notice as per the Part 4 Tenancy regulations:

    If you are there 2 years or longer but less than 3 years - 8 weeks (56 days)
    If you are there 3 years or longer but less than 8 years - 12 weeks (84 days)

    If you have a lease with no break clause, you are entitled to see out your lease.


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    #8
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Good man Graham. Unbelievable amount of misinformation being touted here.


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    #9
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    murphaph wrote: »
    Good man Graham. Unbelievable amount of misinformation being touted here.

    The one area I'm not certain about is the change in ownership with a sitting tenant. I have a suspicion that an existing tenancy remains with a change in ownership but I can't find much information to back that up.


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    #10
    thegreatiam
    Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭thegreatiam


    yes we have a lease. Started tenancy in my 2013, then re-signed at the end of last year when there was a rental increase. Not sure of the details but it seemed pretty boilerplate so I'm guessing we don't have a no break clause.

    Everything has confirmed my doubts. if she sells then the new landlord is either A - going to kick us all out
    Or
    B - going to increase the rent

    We are lucky in the fact that our rent is relatively cheap for the area, the next cheapest house is paying around 50% more than we are, but that just means the next landlord will 100% be raising prices.

    I am simply going to take this as early notice of termination and hopefully find something before it sells. She has been "hinting" at selling for a while but has never actually committed.


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    #11
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Please go and take proper legal advice before you do anything costly.

    There is at least a possibility that your current position (including rent level) is secure until the existing lease ends.


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    #12
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    yes we have a lease. Started tenancy in my 2013, then re-signed at the end of last year when there was a rental increase. Not sure of the details but it seemed pretty boilerplate so I'm guessing we don't have a no break clause.

    Everything has confirmed my doubts. if she sells then the new landlord is either A - going to kick us all out
    Or
    B - going to increase the rent

    We are lucky in the fact that our rent is relatively cheap for the area, the next cheapest house is paying around 50% more than we are, but that just means the next landlord will 100% be raising prices.

    I am simply going to take this as early notice of termination and hopefully find something before it sells. She has been "hinting" at selling for a while but has never actually committed.

    So you have a lease until December 2016? You cant be kicked out while that is in effect, unless there is a specific break clause.


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    #13
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,022 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Graham wrote: »
    The one area I'm not certain about is the change in ownership with a sitting tenant. I have a suspicion that an existing tenancy remains with a change in ownership but I can't find much information to back that up.
    The tenancy continues IMO. I would look at it this way:
    A tenant over holds when his lease runs out and he has been given valid notice to quit. He is not even paying rent at this stage, yet the tenancy most definitely still exists and continues to exist until a district (or higher) court judge deems it to be at an end.

    Given that, I can't see any way in which a tenancy would be deemed to be at an end, simply because the property changed hands. The purchasing landlord receives the property with the tenant in place and is obliged to continue under the terms of the lease in place (or Part IV if it applies in the case of residential lettings).


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    #14
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    murphaph wrote: »
    The tenancy continues IMO. I would look at it this way:
    A tenant over holds when his lease runs out and he has been given valid notice to quit. He is not even paying rent at this stage, yet the tenancy most definitely still exists and continues to exist until a district (or higher) court judge deems it to be at an end.

    Given that, I can't see any way in which a tenancy would be deemed to be at an end, simply because the property changed hands. The purchasing landlord receives the property with the tenant in place and is obliged to continue under the terms of the lease in place (or Part IV if it applies in the case of residential lettings).

    If the tenant is issued notice to leave in accordance with part IV then there is nothing to stop the new owner taking the tenant in again seemlessly and reviewing the rent. The OP has a lease though so no rent review and no need to leave.


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    #15
    thegreatiam
    Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭thegreatiam


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    So you have a lease until December 2016? You cant be kicked out while that is in effect, unless there is a specific break clause.

    even if the place is sold before then? if the house goes on the market today and sells in 3 months then where does my lease stand?

    Would that not null any contract I have with my current landlord?


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    #16
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    even if the place is sold before then? if the house goes on the market today and sells in 3 months then where does my lease stand?

    Would that not null any contract I have with my current landlord?

    Unless there is a break clause in your lease, your lease stands.


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    #17
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,507 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    thegreatiam wrote: »
    even if the place is sold before then? if the house goes on the market today and sells in 3 months then where does my lease stand?

    Would that not null any contract I have with my current landlord?

    Nope, as graham said your lease still stands. Its possible they may offer you cash to move out sooner, if vacant possession is required for the sale, but you are entitled to see out your lease. You are also entitled to block any viewings unless they are on your terms, or negotiate a rent reduction to facilitate viewings. All depends on your relationship with your LL tbh.


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