Cyclists not welcome at Powerscourt Waterfall ?

Tenzor07

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

So kilmainham, Wicklow jail , ceide fields. Nrwgrange etc should be free to by your logic

If it's Wednesday, Yes!


http://www.heritageireland.ie/media/Free%20Wednesdays.pdf

Thargor

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

So kilmainham, Wicklow jail , ceide fields. Nrwgrange etc should be free to by your logic

Idiotic argument, those are buildings that need maintenance, cleaning, utilities, staff, insurance, security etc etc. A waterfall and river should be compared to the Shannon, Croagh Patrick, Carantouhill, Bray Head and other natural features (like Glenmacnass Waterfall 5 minutes away which is nearly as big and free from any interference).

By the way all the buildings you mentioned with all their associated costs actually charge less for admission than the Powerscourt owners want to charge to see a waterfall...

ford2600

Thargor wrote: »

Idiotic argument, those are buildings that need maintenance, cleaning, utilities, staff, insurance, security etc etc. A waterfall and river should be compared to the Shannon, Croagh Patrick, Carantouhill, Bray Head and other natural features (like Glenmacnass Waterfall 5 minutes away which is nearly as big and free from any interference).

By the way all the buildings you mentioned with all their associated costs actually charge less for admission than the Powerscourt owners want to charge to see a waterfall...

Cliffs of Moher...

iwillhtfu

Thargor wrote: »

I've refused the guy at the gate and cycled down to the waterfall a couple of times without paying, I don't agree with them being allowed to fleece people who want to see the biggest waterfall in the country just because some ancestor paid tuppence for it hundreds of years ago, told him to call the guards if he had a problem.

The funny thing is if they're paying to see the highest waterfall in Ireland they're about 300kms south of it.

Apparently Devils pot in Leitrim is the highest at 150m compared to powerscourts paltry 122m

Also Devils pot and Glencar waterfalls are free the walking trail to both have had a lot of work put into them and there's a nice tea room located at the entrance to Glencar All situated on a nice lake.

Powerscourts is in Leinster on a well worn tourist trail, Devils pot/Glencar are a bit out of the way in the forgotten NW go figure.

Zillah

Definitely not comfortable with someone charging to allow someone to look at a natural feature like a waterfall. It's not like they made it.

Thargor

ford2600 wrote: »

Cliffs of Moher...

http://www.cliffs-moher.com/price.php

IT IS FREE TO SEE THE CLIFFS OF MOHER
Pedestrian right of access without charge.
There is a pedestrian right of access from the road to the viewing area at the Cliffs of Moher. Clare County Council who run the Cliffs of Moher will seek a charge from persons visiting the property in respect of all other facilities provided on site. Where people seek to utlise the right of way only, this will be accommodated free of charge.

Orion

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

So I take it you won't need to use the toilets or grab a coffee or cycle/walk on the maintained thoroughfares?
Others have said they use the amenities it provides but don't bother paying.

There are no toilets or coffee shops on top of Djouce, Lug or even Maulin next door to the waterfall and I manage just fine.

ford2600

Thargor wrote: »

http://www.cliffs-moher.com/price.php

I've been there twice, it's free if you walk to it...

Walking from your car isn't free...

Double yellow lines on road on both approaches to car park for considerable distance.

Walking to entrance on that road wouldn't be pleasant.

I'm not saying I agree with it but saying it's free to see Cliffs on foot is a bit dishonest

Thargor

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

What part of it being on their land don't you get?

Its private property. If you don't like the price, no one is forcing to to go in and pay it.
If you want a coffee, go up to the house where you can use the facilities for free.
Do you also think admission to the house and gardens should be free?

Have you ever heard of rights of way? There should be a right of way to every interesting natural feature in the country like there is in the rest of Europe. Carantouhill is "their land", should there be a fee to climb it? Its hilarious that you think coffee and buildings are comparable to mountains, rivers and waterfalls, like you think people are arguing they should be able to walk into a shop and help themselves.

Don't Chute!

Thargor wrote: »

Have you ever heard of rights of way? There should be a right of way to every interesting natural feature in the country like there is in the rest of Europe. Carantouhill is "their land", should there be a fee to climb it? Its hilarious that you think coffee and buildings are comparable to mountains, rivers and waterfalls, like you think people are arguing they should be able to walk into a shop and help themselves.

Wasn't there a big dispute recently where the "owner" of Ben Bulben actually banned people from walking on it? Ridiculous.

Thargor

ford2600 wrote: »

I'm not saying I agree with it but saying it's free to see Cliffs on foot is a bit dishonest

No, you claiming its not free is dishonest, Its on the Burren Way, one of the busiest walking trails in the West. Its free to enter the Cliffs of Moher on foot. Parking is easily available nearby in a ditch or down the 100+ boreens in the area if you have to have a car but this is the cycling forum, Ive been there 50 times and never paid, so no, its not dishonest to say the Cliffs of Moher is free.

uck51js9zml2yt

Thargor wrote: »

Have you ever heard of rights of way? There should be a right of way to every interesting natural feature in the country like there is in the rest of Europe. Carantouhill is "their land", should there be a fee to climb it? Its hilarious that you think coffee and buildings are comparable to mountains, rivers and waterfalls, like you think people are arguing they should be able to walk into a shop and help themselves.

Firstly, no one on here has shown me there is a recognised right of way into the waterfall nor has anyone volunteered to contact the estate about it.

As far as I can see, Powercourt Estate is private land. If you want to go onto it, you do so under their terms.

Based on your earlier argument, PC also requires " maintenance, cleaning, utilities, staff, insurance, security etc etc"
Do you want them to cover the cost themselves?

Come back to me when you've emailed the estate and gotten a response until then we are just going around in circles.

uck51js9zml2yt

Tenzor07 wrote: »

If it's Wednesday, Yes!


http://www.heritageireland.ie/media/Free%20Wednesdays.pdf

There was another post somewhere in recent days that some sites were no longer free on Wednesday.

Thargor

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

Firstly, no one on here has shown me there is a recognised right of way into the waterfall nor has anyone volunteered to contact the estate about it.

As far as I can see, Powercourt Estate is private land. If you want to go onto it, you do so under their terms.

Based on your earlier argument, PC also requires " maintenance, cleaning, utilities, staff, insurance, security etc etc"
Do you want them to cover the cost themselves?

Come back to me when you've emailed the estate and gotten a response until then we are just going around in circles.

Are you even reading the posts? Nobody is arguing that there isnt a fee to get in there, complaining about it is the reason for the thread...

Email the estate and come back to you with their response?

Searchers

There are a plenty of both public and private sites (or sights) where there are charges to enter such as Gleninchaquin, Geokaun and Fahan in Co Kerry and Doolin Cave in Co Clare. Some State owned parks have charges of varying degrees while others are free. Some, such as Glendalough and Lough Key, have an entry charge for cars but are also easily accessed free.

Glenmacnass, like Powerscourt (from the Crone Wood pathway), is viewable free from the public road - but I don't think there is public access to the base of the falls via the private land on the valley floor.

Thargor

Ive been to all those places and never paid a cent, where would you even pay money for somewhere like Gleninchaquin? It would be like charging to get "into" the Wicklow mountains. Doolin Cave/Ailwee Caves are heavily staffed with lighting, ventilation, safety etc etc all needing paying for so again zero comparison to a waterfall in a forest.

uck51js9zml2yt

Thargor wrote: »

Are you even reading the posts? Nobody is arguing that there isnt a fee to get in there, complaining about it is the reason for the thread...

Email the estate and come back to you with their response?

People believe they should be able to enter PCW free of charge. I dont.
If you think they are wrong in doing so, get your proof of a public right of way and contact them.

The OP was about them closing off a way in that cyclists used. Unless its a public right of way, they are entitled to maintain their boundaries and close off unauthorised access points

Thargor

Well then you have a very strange attitude to the countries natural features, would you also be happy paying money to the owners of Carantouhill? I visit Powerscourt waterfall a couple of times a year and will never pay for it, same for every other river and waterfall, at least you've stopped claiming people want free toilets and coffee and carparking everywhere though.

Weepsie

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

So kilmainham, Wicklow jail , ceide fields. Nrwgrange etc should be free to by your logic

In an ideal world they would be, but they're completely different things.

A waterfall, in a forest that has been there for many millenia and will be there for many more shouldn't have an entry fee to see it. If people need to park a car as I said, then by all means have a nominal charge that helps with maintenance etc.

And I've no problem with them operating a business such as coffee shop, and paying to see the house, but charging to see the falls is a bit much IMO

Johnny Jukebox

Thargor wrote: »

The top of he waterfall? Ive camped there and didnt know you could get down, is there a trail there? You follow the river from the little bridge on the path from the carpark to Djouce and you can actually get down from where it goes over the cliff to the bottom where all the cars are parked?

Yes the top. You ride to the top of the red road and take a trail off to the right, follow it to the edge which over looks the waterfall off to the left. Follow the trail around to the right, it cuts back into the forest, gets a bit muddy and then winds, swoops and loops down a steep descent, eventually exiting onto the Earls drive. Built by Irelands best known MTB rider I believe.

Don't Chute!

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

People believe they should be able to enter PCW free of charge. I dont.
If you think they are wrong in doing so, get your proof of a public right of way and contact them.

The OP was about them closing off a way in that cyclists used. Unless its a public right of way, they are entitled to maintain their boundaries and close off unauthorised access points

I don't understand why you want us to contact the owners. I don't recall anyone saying there is a right of way. Do you know how much of the land they own? Does it extend up to Djouce? If so we must pay to go up there. Do you agree with that? Btw i asked you if you're involved with Powerscourt. Are you?

Beasty

black and amber wrote: »

Btw i asked you if you're involved with Powerscourt. Are you?

That is none of your business. Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread.

uck51js9zml2yt

black and amber wrote: »

I don't understand why you want us to contact the owners. I don't recall anyone saying there is a right of way. Do you know how much of the land they own? Does it extend up to Djouce? If so we must pay to go up there. Do you agree with that? Btw i asked you if you're involved with Powerscourt. Are you?

The op was bemoaning the fact that they closed off an entrance he used to gain access to the estate. If he feels he is being wronged, he can contact the owners and find out their reason for closing the boundary.
I'm advocating its their right to do so and charge access. Others disagree alluding to a right of way and other reasons.
Don't know how much land they own these days. The Slazangers sold a lot off it off to Coilte. Its their land and their rules. If people don't like those rules, they don't need to go onto the estate.
They had free access to the river walk at the house for years but put a gate up which could only be opened if you bought a ticket. The reason for closing off free access was the amount of litter and damage done by people not respecting what they got for free.

I'm not involved with Powerscourt except when I go down on a Sunday afternoon in the summer for desert. The avoca coffee shop does some serious cakes:)

saccades

Johnny Jukebox wrote: »

Yes the top. You ride to the top of the red road and take a trail off to the right, follow it to the edge which over looks the waterfall off to the left. Follow the trail around to the right, it cuts back into the forest, gets a bit muddy and then winds, swoops and loops down a steep descent, eventually exiting onto the Earls drive. Built by Irelands best known MTB rider I believe.

Allan isn't the best mtber...


oh, best known......

/chuckles some more


There isn't a safe route from the top of the waterfall down, that trail listed above is a way off from the waterfall.

Thargor

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

The op was bemoaning the fact that they closed off an entrance he used to gain access to the estate. If he feels he is being wronged, he can contact the owners and find out their reason for closing the boundary.
I'm advocating its their right to do so and charge access. Others disagree alluding to a right of way and other reasons.
Don't know how much land they own these days. The Slazangers sold a lot off it off to Coilte. Its their land and their rules. If people don't like those rules, they don't need to go onto the estate.
They had free access to the river walk at the house for years but put a gate up which could only be opened if you bought a ticket. The reason for closing off free access was the amount of litter and damage done by people not respecting what they got for free.

I'm not involved with Powerscourt except when I go down on a Sunday afternoon in the summer for desert. The avoca coffee shop does some serious cakes:)

What do you expect the owners to say in this contact you keep urging? You really do have a bizarre position "advocating" this, its the owners of Carantouhills right to charge money to climb the mountain, it doesnt make it right to do so, are you advocating for charges to be introduced there aswell? There were plenty of crazy rules on where people couldnt go down the years in this country and thankfully they have been gotten rid of, would you advocate for the likes of Bray Head, the Cliff Walk and various beaches to go back to being private property with restricted access or is it just certain waterfalls?

uck51js9zml2yt

Thargor wrote: »

What do you expect the owners to say in this contact you keep urging? You really do have a bizarre position "advocating" this, its the owners of Carantouhills right to charge money to climb the mountain, it doesnt make it right to do so, are you advocating for charges to be introduced there aswell? There were plenty of crazy rules on where people couldnt go down the years in this country and thankfully they have been gotten rid of, would you advocate for the likes of Bray Head, the Cliff Walk and various beaches to go back to being private property with restricted access or is it just certain waterfalls?

As in the op, you could clarify why the "usual route" was blocked.
As I said, its their land and their rules for entry. If you think it should be free, then crowdfund to buy it and make it free.
As I said, they had parts of the estate free and it was abused with them left to clean up the mess and repair the damage. Why should they expose themselves to that?

stampydmonkey

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

As in the op, you could clarify why the "usual route" was blocked.
As I said, its their land and their rules for entry. If you think it should be free, then crowdfund to buy it and make it free.
As I said, they had parts of the estate free and it was abused with them left to clean up the mess and repair the damage. Why should they expose themselves to that?

Well yes, but if there is a legal public right of way through their lands than no they cannot just block off access or charge. Now I have no idea if this is the case. Someone on here might have access to landdirect.ie and may be able to confirm, that is if the lands are registered on the system.

smacl

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Well yes, but if there is a legal public right of way through their lands than no they cannot just block off access or charge. Now I have no idea if this is the case. Someone on here might have access to landdirect.ie and may be able to confirm, that is if the lands are registered on the system.

Landdirect.ie is a freely accessible site. I looked and couldn't find any rights of way marked in Powerscourt estates on it.

The issue here really is that we don't have a clearly stated right to roam private land in Ireland, as per Blackandbmbers post showing how it works it Sweden. I think it would be great if we could establish this right, but until that time owners of Powerscourt are within their rights to fence off the area and charge access.

Don't Chute!

Ariana Hundreds Gentlewoman wrote: »

As in the op, you could clarify why the "usual route" was blocked.
As I said, its their land and their rules for entry. If you think it should be free, then crowdfund to buy it and make it free.
As I said, they had parts of the estate free and it was abused with them left to clean up the mess and repair the damage. Why should they expose themselves to that?

I've been thinking about this today and Glendalough came to mind. There are two car parks in Glendalough. The lower one is free the upper one has a charge of €4 per car. The whole of Glendalough and its surrounding area can be accessed from both car parks. Do you think the people who park in the lower one should not be allowed to use the amenities?

The situation in Powerscourt is there is a car park up on the old long hill road which leads into Djouce Woods which in turn leads on down to the waterfall. Nowhere long that way are there any signs to say you can't go any further without paying. As I said before, how many people just wander in there completely unaware that there is a charge?

The ironic thing about this whole argument is that the owners of Powerscourt don't seem to have a problem with this. The only person that does is you!

mrbrianj

I Think the OPW 'own' the parts of Glendalough you have access to.

As I believe that the lands at Djouce woods and Crone Woods (that lead up to the open hill which is most likely commanage) are also in some form of state control, be it Coillte or OPW. This allows us, the public, access to wide areas to view the water fall from.

The deer park at the base of the water fall is seemingly privately owned and therefore access there is controlled. I dont think you'd expect free access to farms or gardens of other properties around, just because they have a nice view.

Should the state purchase these areas for public amenity is another matter.