Mortgages for the regular public

0gac3yjefb5sv7

I actually find it so frustrating in this country that there is such a housing mess whereby people who work hard can't afford to buy a home for themselves. Fair enough if you decide to drop out of the education system and then you may have some difficulties later on but for people who have worked their ass off to get through college and masters to then just possibly be able to buy a small apartment is very frustrating. How did it get to this point? Interested to hear any thoughts on this.

Wesser

I agree. It's crazy. I have posted about this before. People who work hard get naught, it's so unfair. It's so hard to buy a house!!!!

Eg People who work hard get no medical card, people who do naught get medical card, makes no sense at all.

I expect I will get slated for saying so but that's how I feel.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

Skatedude

I've worked damn hard for 30+ years,(since i was 10) got good collage qualifications etc and now due to the 3.5 times salary rule for mortgages, I either live at home with my mother into my forties or move out of the area where my family and friends have lived for 3 to 4 generations to the middle of nowhere or try for a 1 room dump of an apartment in the worst area's of dublin?

fair dosen't even come into it.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc. Also you are not "entilted" to it for free. But you should be able to get one with ease if you work regular hours. Working your ass off should get you a very nice house.

Edit: also two people "should" "potentially" be in a position on those salaries. First of all you should be able to buy your own house and second if you are looking enough to have a partner earning 50k also then you be able to get a home no problem!

snickerpuss

Stheno wrote: »

Two people with two incomes of 50k would be potentially in a position to buy at that level

The Central bank have the current rules in place to prevent what happened in the last crash.

Just because you work, doesn't mean you are "entitled" to a mortgage to buy your own home.

Are the prices you are talking about Dublin prices? Certainly wouldn't be the case for 90% of houses in the country overall.

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc. Also you are not "entilted" to it for free. But you should be able to get one with ease if you work regular hours. Working your ass off should get you a very nice house.

So what level of income/house prices do you think should there be as a ratio?

To get a house for 300k, the income multiple is 3.5 with a 10% deposit for a FTB, and 20% for anyone else.

So that brings the mortgage down to 270k/240k

For an individual that means an income of 77k/68.5k

For a couple it means a joint income of the same, which means if they earned the same amount each, their average income would be 38.5k or 34.25k each.

The average industrial wage is about 35 k, so for a couple on the average industrial wage, with the deposit, it's possible. Median wage was reported at 32.5k last year for a person working full time, so again, not too far off being eminently achievable, perhaps with a larger deposit.

Not so for individuals on the same.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Exactly. I also find it odd that 90% of houses etc are 300-400k+ whereas only 10%ish should have salaries large enough to buy these. The figures don't really add up.

90% of houses are over 300k?
I don't think so.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

So what level of income/house prices do you think should there be as a ratio?

To get a house for 300k, the income multiple is 3.5 with a 10% deposit for a FTB, and 20% for anyone else.

So that brings the mortgage down to 270k/240k

For an individual that means an income of 77k/68.5k

For a couple it means a joint income of the same, which means if they earned the same amount each, their average income would be 38.5k or 34.25k each.

The average industrial wage is about 35 k, so for a couple on the average industrial wage, with the deposit, it's possible.

Not so for individuals on the same.

I would argue the average wage of 35k is definitely very high for anyone in their 20s which is when a lot of people would look for a home. According to the wages at the moment, a 3 bed house should be between 200-300k but it's not even close to that in Dublin. You shouldn't have to bank on having a partner earning a huge salary also to have the "possibility" of owning a home!

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

I would argue the average wage of 35k is definitely very high for anyone in their 20s which is when a lot of people would look for a home. According to the wages at the moment, a 3 bed house should be between 200-300k but it's not even close to that in Dublin. You shouldn't have to bank on having a partner earning a huge salary also to have the "possibility" of owning a home!

Here's the CSO stats from last year on the average industrial wage, and the median industrial wage.

No one is saying you can't own a home, just perhaps not in one of the most expensive property markets in the country tbh.

What would you like to happen here? Price control?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Here's the CSO stats from last year on the average industrial wage, and the median industrial wage.

No one is saying you can't own a home, just perhaps not in one of the most expensive property markets in the country tbh.

What would you like to happen here? Price control?

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

How many years have you been working?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

How many years have you been working?

Why?

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Why?

Your posts are contradictory, on one hand you suggest people in their twenties who are at the beginning of a working life should be able to buy, then that the min. reward for working hard all your life should be the ability to buy a house.

Working hard all your life to me, is working for 30 years plus, not being in your first or second job after school/college.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Your posts are contradictory, on one hand you suggest people in their twenties who are at the beginning of a working life should be able to buy, then that the min. reward for working hard all your life should be the ability to buy a house.

Working hard all your life to me, is working for 30 years plus, not being in your first or second job after school/college.

They are certainly not contradictory. Both say that you should be able to get in the ladder when you are relatively young and pay off your mortgage within your lifetime of work.

Stheno

Also I did a search on daft for properties in Dublin for under 200k.

There are 643 of them of which 183 are under 150k.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/property-for-sale/?s[mxp]=200000

Skatedude

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

I agree, 50k ? i'm a damn good maintenance tech and i would hope to be on that by the time i retire. I've worked for decades with IBM and Hp etc and just barely made it to 30k before they fired all of us last year at the age of 43.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But you have to live in this county to earn the higher wages as it is where the jobs are. I'd happily live in Carlow if I could move my job there! Im not an economist but I would like whatever fiscal adjustments need to be made in order for regular people to buy a home. Not a fancy home just a regular place to live. Think that should be the min reward for working all your life.

I know people that live in Carlow & commute to Dublin. Wouldn't suit me, but they don't mind.
That's supply & demand.
Demand is highest in Dublin ( maybe other cities, I don't know them too well ) so obviously prices are higher.
Prices are higher in parts of Dublin that are most desirable.
Everyone doesn't have the right to buy a house where they want it!
Buy where you can afford or rent in the area you want to live.

I don't understand this thing where people feel someone else / the government should help them buy as house.

Stheno

Skatedude wrote: »

I agree, 50k ? i'm a damn good maintenance tech and i would hope to be on that by the time i retire. I've worked for decades with IBM and Hp etc and just barely made it to 30k before they fired all of us last year at the age of 43.

See my post earlier on the difference between individuals and couples and how couples both earning average/median wage can afford homes.

Then see the list of over 600 properties in Dublin for less than 200k.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

They are certainly not contradictory. Both say that you should be able to get in the ladder when you are relatively young and pay off your mortgage within your lifetime of work.

There's plenty of accommodation for sale in Dublin for less than 200k, it might not be where you want to live, but it's there.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

Also I did a search on daft for properties in Dublin for under 200k.

There are 643 of them of which 183 are under 150k.
http://www.daft.ie/dublin/property-for-sale/?s[mxp]=200000

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

bubblypop wrote: »

There's plenty of accommodation for sale in Dublin for less than 200k, it might not be where you want to live, but it's there.

But even if an individual is on 30k ( in their 20s is quite close to the average ) they would need to have a partner on 30k AND even then you can only get a mortgage for 180k to live in a area well outside town or poor area.

That's also disregarding the saving for a deposit while paying increasing rent. Absolutely ridiculous. No one should think that is OK.

Stheno

Pheonix10 wrote: »

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

You are the person who posted that 90% of properties are 3-400k?

In total at the moment in Dublin there are 2519 properties for sale for 425k or less, so as a percentage of properties in that price bracket, 25.5% of those properties are for sale for less than 200k?

You also posted in your op that

for people who have worked their ass off to get through college and masters to then just possibly be able to buy a small apartment is very frustrating.

Did you expect to finish college, start work and buy a house in your chosen area a couple of years later? Honestly your posts are coming across as being entirely unrealistic imo.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

But even if an individual is on 30k ( in their 20s is quite close to the average ) they would need to have a partner on 30k AND even then you can only get a mortgage for 180k to live in a area well outside town or poor area.

That's also disregarding the saving for a deposit while paying increasing rent. Absolutely ridiculous. No one should think that is OK.

That's the market.

What do you suggest?

Eugene Norman

bubblypop wrote: »

I know people that live in Carlow & commute to Dublin. Wouldn't suit me, but they don't mind.
That's supply & demand.
Demand is highest in Dublin ( maybe other cities, I don't know them too well ) so obviously prices are higher.
Prices are higher in parts of Dublin that are most desirable.
Everyone doesn't have the right to buy a house where they want it!
Buy where you can afford or rent in the area you want to live.

I don't understand this thing where people feel someone else / the government should help them buy as house.

The government has helped people not paying their mortgages keep their houses. This whole "supply and demand" is bunk. Irelands housing market is manipulated to keep prices artificially high.

eeguy

You also have to take into account that it's high housing cost is in the best interest of the 90% of the population that are home owners.

"Measures to reduce the cost of housing?
No thanks! That'll make me look poorer on paper"

Meanwhile everyone else is stuck with the modern reality that all the good jobs are now in the cities and the thousands of graduates from all over this country and others, plus all those who lost their jobs during the recession ( when that one factory that sustained an entire rural town closed) are moving to the cities pushing the prices of everything up.

Couple this with NIMBYs everywhere, a government that currently is not even functioning, increasing taxation pressure on the very people who have to actually save for a house (as opposed to being wealthy enough to just buy one outright, or "poor" enough to just be given one) and you have the current predicament.

blindside88

Pheonix10 wrote: »

That includes 1 beds, apartments, and poor areas as well as areas well outside the city.

So the arguement has now changed from "there are not affordable properties" to "there are affordable properties but not with the number of bedrooms or in the specific area of Dublin I want". It's a simple case pf supply and demand. I worked in dublin for 4 years and commuted from Carlow. Dublin has the most expensive property in the country. Everyone cannot live there.

Eugene Norman

blindside88 wrote: »

So the arguement has now changed from "there are not affordable properties" to "there are affordable properties but not with the number of bedrooms or in the specific area of Dublin I want". It's a simple case pf supply and demand. I worked in dublin for 4 years and commuted from Carlow. Dublin has the most expensive property in the country. Everyone cannot live there.

Why? At the last census the place was empty. If housing matched population growth then people could live there.

newacc2015

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

Depending on the job. A recently qualified accountant can expect to make €45k in their twenties. It would be close to €85k after a few years. The harsh reality is just some people wont be ever in the position to get a mortgage. The state should provide housing for them.

This whole thread has been blaming the CB for people dont being able to get easy credit. The job of the CB is protect the interest of the entire economy. The property crash destroyed the economy and should never be repeated. Hence the mortgage rules

The thing that everyone should be annoyed on is social housing rules. Go to any major American city(even small ones) and you can earn close to €100k a year. Yet you are still entitled to social housing. Your rent will be slightly less than the market rate. Versus living in a DCC area, where if you barely earn more than the minimum wage and you are not entitled to social housing

Instead of blaming the CB for doing their job. People should be pissed with the Government for failing to providing housing for the middle class. Ireland has to be one of the few countries in the Western World, where hard work is punished with high taxes and low amount of services. Versus the UK or USA, where hard work is rewarded.

IMO it is insane that a person on €25k should have to pay full market rent. DCC should be building 20-40 storey apartment blocks for working professionals, like NYC did in the past. I seriously doubt people working for the big four are going to have the same social issues as the residents of Ballymun caused. Working professionals can live in high rise building. High density Upper East Side NYC has little social problems compared to low density Bushwick. If you make a serious dent in housing shortages for professionals, you will start freeing up lower priced housing for social housing, that professionals have had no choice but to live in

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Stheno wrote: »

You are the person who posted that 90% of properties are 3-400k?

In total at the moment in Dublin there are 2519 properties for sale for 425k or less, so as a percentage of properties in that price bracket, 25.5% of those properties are for sale for less than 200k?

You also posted in your op that

Did you expect to finish college, start work and buy a house in your chosen area a couple of years later? Honestly your posts are coming across as being entirely unrealistic imo.

Yes that is exactly what I expected. Not unrealistic. I didn't get a regular qualification, I got a first class honours degree and a masters. A house is a pretty fundamental thing that everyone should be able to afford if they work hard. How low are your expectations?