Mortgages for the regular public

MrMorooka

Basically, yeah. Ireland has systemic intractable social and political problems when it comes to housing and I have no confidence we will fix them. Really you just have to live with it.

eeguy

JMurphy84 wrote: »

I dont think a 2 hour commute is all that bad if you're desperate enough to buy your own gaff.

My point is that people need to stop buying a postcode and buy a home!

This is another reason why the government should step in and start building high rises in the city.

The motorway infrastructure around the city is choking with commuters. At least a housing scheme would have some payback for the initial investment, rather than more €30 million per km roadworks.

A 10 story 60 apartment complex could house 200 people, potentially 400 less cars on the road per day. Build 10 of these and you've reduced the motorway traffic problem, reduced the housing crisis, reduced the homeless crisis and potentially made some money in the bargain.

sbsquarepants

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes that is exactly what I expected. Not unrealistic. I didn't get a regular qualification, I got a first class honours degree and a masters. A house is a pretty fundamental thing that everyone should be able to afford if they work hard. How low are your expectations?

I don't mean to be insulting, but getting an education is not the same thing as "working your ass off". You are of course to be commended on getting such a high level of education, far higher than my own btw - but what has that benefited the state?
It may well do in years to come but right now - it's nothing but potential.
A friend of mine has a PHD - he's working in a job he hates (in a completely unrelated field) for next to nothing just to make ends meet. His PHD is essentially worthless, just because he has it doesn't entitle him to jack **** - why should it?

The idea you should be able to waltz out of college and into a fancy house as a reward for your hard work is just plain stupid.

Speedwell

People of modest means should be able to buy modest homes. Somewhere in there, either our expectation of what "modest means" is or our expectation of what a "modest home" is has gone out of whack. Years ago someone criticized a writer for having "middle class ideals of decency" (in a context where nearly everyone suffered from abominable poverty). If we think a decent life can only be had by obtaining the trappings of middle class life, then we seem to have put ourselves, as a society, in the position of ensuring that everyone has middle class means. When I was a Libertarian in America, I thought this was ridiculous on its face. Now that I'm over that silly, naive stage, I think that is actually what Ireland is, commendably, trying to accomplish.

sbsquarepants

eeguy wrote: »

This is another reason why the government should step in and start building high rises in the city.

The motorway infrastructure around the city is choking with commuters. At least a housing scheme would have some payback for the initial investment, rather than more €30 million per km roadworks.

A 10 story 60 apartment complex could house 200 people, potentially 400 less cars on the road per day. Build 10 of these and you've reduced the motorway traffic problem, reduced the housing crisis, reduced the homeless crisis and potentially made some money in the bargain.

It's a good idea, but I think you're underestimating the scale required. I'm sitting overlooking the M50 at the moment - I'd say 400 cars will pass me in the next 2 minutes. 400 cars less on the road would have zero impact, either would 4000. You'd need to be well into the tens of thousands to have any noticeable effect.

KERSPLAT!

In 2014 the M50 toll was passing 120k cars per day, I'd say that has risen significantly since. 4k cars would have little impact on traffic

Speedwell

At the risk of sounding oblivious, it is pretty rare for a dwelling built for five people to be occupied by five actual working people all making the average salary. It is much less rare for it to be occupied by five people, one of which makes roughly three times the average salary. one of which makes roughly two times the average salary, and three of whom make collectively less than the average salary (for example).

eeguy

There's very few one and two bed apartments in the city. Walk 5 mins in any direction from O'Connell St, and you see terraced houses.
Apartments in Dublin are usually houses which have been poorly subdivided into separate dwellings.

KERSPLAT! wrote: »

In 2014 the M50 toll was passing 120k cars per day, I'd say that has risen significantly since. 4k cars would have little impact on traffic

That's true, 120k cars throughout the 24hrs of the day.

But these 4k cars would almost universally be commuters.

I can't find hourly stats, but for arguments sake say there's 60k cars during the 7-9am and 5-7pm rush hour slots.

So 60k cars in 4 hours.
If you could reduce this by 4k, then that 7% reduction.
Not bad considering it's a side benefit to solving a totally separate housing crisis.

lisasimpson

I agree with the original poster.im in my 30s worked hard living in the south have a good bit saved but coz im a single applicant its almost impossible. Not looking for anything mad id be happy out with a 2bed place...
people may go on about obession with buying a hse but the country isnt set up for long term renting either and renting is becoming increasingly difficult and expensive

KomradeBishop

mansize wrote: »

The cost of buying a house is lower than building one in a lot of areas at the moment, thats why there is no incentive for developers to build.

There isn't really any credible evidence for this.

Allinall

KomradeBishop wrote: »

There isn't really any credible evidence for this.

The evidence is the builders and developers sitting on their hands, rather than building houses.

Do you really think that if there was profit to be made they wouldn't be going after it?

wally79

Allinall wrote: »

The evidence is the builders and developers sitting on their hands, rather than building houses.

Do you really think that if there was profit to be made they wouldn't be going after it?

I think there may be a profit but some are betting on the market going up.

Why build 10 houses you can sell for 500k today when you can wait and build 10 houses to sell for 600k

Absolutely opinion based with no factual back up

0gac3yjefb5sv7

sbsquarepants wrote: »

I don't mean to be insulting, but getting an education is not the same thing as "working your ass off". You are of course to be commended on getting such a high level of education, far higher than my own btw - but what has that benefited the state?
It may well do in years to come but right now - it's nothing but potential.
A friend of mine has a PHD - he's working in a job he hates (in a completely unrelated field) for next to nothing just to make ends meet. His PHD is essentially worthless, just because he has it doesn't entitle him to jack **** - why should it?

The idea you should be able to waltz out of college and into a fancy house as a reward for your hard work is just plain stupid.

When did anyone say anything about a fancy house?! I completely disagree. Your friend is highly skilled and has made the commitments to education in order reap the benefits at the other side in terms of a very high paying job. Sure if college doesn't allow you to earn more money then we would all just skip school at 13 and go to work earning minimum wage.

Hate when people keep using entitle. I am not asking for a house for free. I am saying if you work hard through education and work you should be able to afford a place to live.

Hardly a big ask. Should be the minimum level of reward.

KomradeBishop

Allinall wrote: »

The evidence is the builders and developers sitting on their hands, rather than building houses.

Do you really think that if there was profit to be made they wouldn't be going after it?

That's not evidence of anything other than them being happy to sit on their hands rather than build.

Developers have actually taken the government to the EU courts, for attempting to build social housing (really, they have done this...), while themselves not building anything - what does that say?

That maybe they profit more by letting the existing housing stock inflate in price, rather than building...(so that when they do build, they can try and draw as big of a profit as possible, from the inflated land/house prices)

Deagol

Pheonix10 wrote: »

When did anyone say anything about a fancy house?! I completely disagree. Your friend is highly skilled and has made the commitments to education in order reap the benefits at the other side in terms of a very high paying job. Sure if college doesn't allow you to earn more money then we would all just skip school at 13 and go to work earning minimum wage.

Hate when people keep using entitle. I am not asking for a house for free. I am saying if you work hard through education and work you should be able to afford a place to live.

Hardly a big ask. Should be the minimum level of reward.

I'm always puzzled were people get this rule-book on how life should be from? I didn't get given one, am I missing out on my entitlements?? :rolleyes:

Speedwell

Deagol wrote: »

I'm always puzzled were people get this rule-book on how life should be from? I didn't get given one, am I missing out on my entitlements?? :rolleyes:

You may be missing out on your social skills.

wally79

Pheonix10 wrote: »

When did anyone say anything about a fancy house?! I completely disagree. Your friend is highly skilled and has made the commitments to education in order reap the benefits at the other side in terms of a very high paying job. Sure if college doesn't allow you to earn more money then we would all just skip school at 13 and go to work earning minimum wage.

Hate when people keep using entitle. I am not asking for a house for free. I am saying if you work hard through education and work you should be able to afford a place to live.

Hardly a big ask. Should be the minimum level of reward.

I'm in the same boat myself. But I don't understand what you would like to be done.

A lot of people have a good education, work hard and want to live in the same desirable areas but there's limited stock so the price goes up.

You either find a way to get to the level of pay required or you accept that you won't be able to live exactly where you want.

eeguy

wally79 wrote: »

A lot of people have a good education, work hard and want to live in the same desirable areas but there's limited stock so the price goes up.

But there doesn't need to be limited stock. There's plenty of vacant land, plenty of vacant buildings, plenty of run down buildings that could be knocked.

The problem is that the ball is mainly in the govt's court, as they have the resources and the freedom to alleviate these problems. And they're doing nothing.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

When did anyone say anything about a fancy house?! I completely disagree. Your friend is highly skilled and has made the commitments to education in order reap the benefits at the other side in terms of a very high paying job. Sure if college doesn't allow you to earn more money then we would all just skip school at 13 and go to work earning minimum wage.

Hate when people keep using entitle. I am not asking for a house for free. I am saying if you work hard through education and work you should be able to afford a place to live.

Hardly a big ask. Should be the minimum level of reward.

You can afford a home, you just don't want the one you can afford.

screamer

Jees people are never happy. There's loads of us that bought at boom prices and it's tough going. Course we were laughed at and given little sympathy cause banks were throwing out money and we were all stupid........ Now to prevent that happening again there are more strict rules and people are still whinging. A mortgage is not the be all and and all of life.......a lot of the problems are because of the obsession with owning property in ireland now its even worse its owning a particular type of property in a particular part of Dublin mainly. For a lot of people a mortgage is a financial albatross.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Exactly this. The current situation doesn't have to remain the same. These are the basic kinds of things that the government should be working on. Housing is a pretty fundamental requirement to any society. Not asking for 10 bed mansion with a pool overlooking the city. Just a small house.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

bubblypop wrote: »

You can afford a home, you just don't want the one you can afford.

How do you know this? Are you my accountant? Stop bull****ting.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

screamer wrote: »

Jees people are never happy. There's loads of us that bought at boom prices and it's tough going. Course we were laughed at and given little sympathy cause banks were throwing out money and we were all stupid........ Now to prevent that happening again there are more strict rules and people are still whinging. A mortgage is not the be all and and all of life.......a lot of the problems are because of the obsession with owning property in ireland now its even worse its owning a particular type of property in a particular part of Dublin mainly. For a lot of people a mortgage is a financial albatross.

You got caught out too but now its gone completely out of sync the other way. We need to find a balance between the two.

Pheonix10

Pheonix10 wrote: »

How do you know this? Are you my accountant? Stop bull****ting.

Well unless you don't receive any wages, which I imagine you do, seeing as you said you educated yourself & work hard, then you can afford a home somewhere.
It might not be the area you want, but I'd love to live in a house on killiney hill, I can't afford it, so I bought somewhere else.

screamer

Pheonix10 wrote: »

You got caught out too but now its gone completely out of sync the other way. We need to find a balance between the two.

Nothing was done to help any of us....... so don't hold your breath......... there is no balance for the government to achieve the balance lies with induviduals and goes lije this...you want it you pay the price. You can't afford it you buy something cheaper or do without. That's life not house buying.

wally79

eeguy wrote: »

But there doesn't need to be limited stock. There's plenty of vacant land, plenty of vacant buildings, plenty of run down buildings that could be knocked.

The problem is that the ball is mainly in the govt's court, as they have the resources and the freedom to alleviate these problems. And they're doing nothing.

What would you like the government to do. fill every piece of land with social housing?

Does that help the situation of someone who is highly educated and working hard so presumably earning well and won't qualify for social housing.

murphaph

Pheonix10 wrote: »

You got caught out too but now its gone completely out of sync the other way. We need to find a balance between the two.

The balance is for singletons starting out to buy 1 bed apartments. I asked before but you didn't answer: do you think this cohort are able to buy even small houses in nice areas of other European capital cities??

cocaliquid

OP you should have a read.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200906/field-guide-the-snob-some-it-haute

eeguy

wally79 wrote: »

What would you like the government to do. fill every piece of land with social housing?

Does that help the situation of someone who is highly educated and working hard so presumably earning well and won't qualify for social housing.

I never said anything about social housing.

I'm talking about rent to buy apartment blocks, where people who have a sufficient income (30k + for example) and references are accepted onto a scheme where they pay rent to a government backed management company and after a few years are given the opportunity to buy their apartment and where a portion of past rent paid is used to offset the final cost of the house.

This gives people a foot onto the property ladder and provides high density urban housing at a recoverable cost to the taxpayer. What's not to love?

screamer

murphaph wrote: »

The balance is for singletons starting out to buy 1 bed apartments. I asked before but you didn't answer: do you think this cohort are able to buy even small houses in nice areas of other European capital cities??

No they rent. I know plenty of people in Germany earning good money and few of any of them own houses. They rent.
Besides buying small 1 bed apartments is not good idea. Lots did that too to get on the property ladder thinking theyd be able to trade up. when the ladder came crashing down they ended up stuck with apartments no one wanted and had to rent them out and then go rent themselves as their lives changed and families came along. Seriously was the crash a million years ago or something or is it a case of selective amnesia ??????

eeguy

screamer wrote: »

No they rent. I know plenty of people in Germany earning good money and few of any of them own houses. They rent.
Besides buying small 1 bed apartments is not good idea. Lots did that too to get on the property ladder thinking theyd be able to trade up. when the ladder came crashing down they ended up stuck with apartments no one wanted and had to rent them out and then go rent themselves as their lives changed and families came along. Seriously was the crash a million years ago or something or is it a case of selective amnesia ??????

You compare Germany and Ireland. The cost and systems of renting are completely different.
Dublin:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Ireland&city=Dublin
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 1,233.43 €

Berlin:
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country=Germany&city=Berlin
Apartment (1 bedroom) in City Centre 673.08 €

wally79

eeguy wrote: »

I never said anything about social housing.

I'm talking about rent to buy apartment blocks, where people who have a sufficient income (30k + for example) and references are accepted onto a scheme where they pay rent to a government backed management company and after a few years are given the opportunity to buy their apartment and where a portion of past rent paid is used to offset the final cost of the house.

This gives people a foot onto the property ladder and provides high density urban housing at a recoverable cost to the taxpayer. What's not to love?

So what happens when you decide you want to move up the property ladder. Do you sell it back to the government at the same price you paid? Or do the government have to pay you a profit?

screamer

eeguy wrote: »

You compare Germany and Ireland. The cost and systems of renting are completely different.

As are the expectations of wanting nay deserving a house of choice in place of choice in dublin and expecting that to be affordable and achieveable on a single wage........ as I've said already the Irish obsession with owning property is a huge contributory factor.

witchgirl26

eeguy wrote: »

I never said anything about social housing.

I'm talking about rent to buy apartment blocks, where people who have a sufficient income (30k + for example) and references are accepted onto a scheme where they pay rent to a government backed management company and after a few years are given the opportunity to buy their apartment and where a portion of past rent paid is used to offset the final cost of the house.

This gives people a foot onto the property ladder and provides high density urban housing at a recoverable cost to the taxpayer. What's not to love?

Rent to buys should be avoided like the plague as they are never as good as they seem on paper. I used to work somewhere where I saw the fall out of quite a lot of them and it was never good.

Essentially you agree the price upfront with the owner about 3-5 years in advance of the purchase. That's brilliant if the prices around the area rise & you've got a good deal. Crap if they fall.

Then you do have the clause where you can walk away but the problem with that is that you walk away from your deposit too coz that's been paid in rent and not saved into your own bank account so you're back at the beginning.

Also a lot of banks will not accept the rent paid as a deposit for mortgages because of the way the agreements are structured (with break clauses etc) so you'd still have to save up a deposit too while renting.

Even if run by a government agency, it'd be frought with problems. And what happens when you want to move? Does it sell on the open market or do you have to sell back to the agency? And what then for the next generation of people?

I have a professional qualification, in a good job & earn a decent wage. Yes it's tough saving for a deposit but it's doable. I don't think the new deposit rules are a bad thing - from chatting to my mam they were like that back when her & my dad were buying. I don't think I should be able to buy a house just because of the salary I'm on or that I worked hard to get my education. Nor do I think I should have been able to buy in my 20s. I probably wouldn't have wanted to, to be completely honest.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

screamer wrote: »

Nothing was done to help any of us....... so don't hold your breath......... there is no balance for the government to achieve the balance lies with induviduals and goes lije this...you want it you pay the price. You can't afford it you buy something cheaper or do without. That's life not house buying.

That's acceptance of defeat. Luckily you're not in power. "Sure, its fecked." "Sure, it's always been that way so what can we do".

eeguy

screamer wrote: »

As are the expectations of wanting nay deserving a house of choice in place of choice in dublin and expecting that to be affordable and achieveable on a single wage........ as I've said already the Irish obsession with owning property is a huge contributory factor.

That's it, don't rock the boat, keep the status quo, sure it hasn't been done before so it can't be done etc etc.

http://blog.myhome.ie/2010/07/21/dublin-city-council-rent-to-buy-scheme/

Geuze

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

Overall average earnings, across all workers, pt, ft, young, old, students, everybody = 36k approx

By selected sector:

industry = 44,167
construction = 37,884
Information and communication = 53,442
Financial, insurance, real estate = 53,393

Geuze

snickerpuss wrote: »

50k is not an average salary. Even for professional jobs.

25 year old newly qualified accountants in large firms start on 48k.

For a 40-year old so-called "professional", with 15 years experience, 50k is below average.

eeguy

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Essentially you agree the price upfront with the owner about 3-5 years in advance of the purchase. That's brilliant if the prices around the area rise & you've got a good deal. Crap if they fall.

You can just walk away.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Then you do have the clause where you can walk away but the problem with that is that you walk away from your deposit too coz that's been paid in rent and not saved into your own bank account so you're back at the beginning.

As opposed to spending all your money on rent and not being able to save for a deposit?

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Also a lot of banks will not accept the rent paid as a deposit for mortgages because of the way the agreements are structured (with break clauses etc) so you'd still have to save up a deposit too while renting.

True, but the rent is usually less and it offsets the cost of the property, so you need a smaller deposit and mortgage.

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Even if run by a government agency, it'd be frought with problems. And what happens when you want to move? Does it sell on the open market or do you have to sell back to the agency? And what then for the next generation of people?

You are usually locked into the house for 5 years before you have the option to sell privately.
In the meantime the government has built more housing for the next generation of buy to owners.

screamer

Pheonix10 wrote: »

That's acceptance of defeat. Luckily you're not in power. "Sure, its fecked." "Sure, it's always been that way so what can we do".

Well from acceptance of one closed option comes the exploration of others. But sure better to stand there stamping feet like a spoilt child screaming I want I want gimme gimme......... you'll be waiting. Those in power couldn't give a cobblers and never will.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

screamer wrote: »

Well from acceptance of one closed option comes the exploration of others. But sure better to stand there stamping feet like a spoilt child screaming I want I want gimme gimme......... you'll be waiting. Those in power couldn't give a cobblers and never will.

Ah yeah I said I wanted a free house...and want the government to pay for it.

Seriously read the thread.

Geuze

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Median household income in Ireland is around 50k, but for average house buying age and in Dublin let's raise that to 60k.

SILC 2014

Median gross household income, incl social benefits = 40,338
After tax = 34,796

Mean gross household income, incl social benefits = 56,397
After tax = 42,287

Geuze

OldNotWIse wrote: »

The average industrial wage is 32k

Please note that the average wages in industry are 44,167 in 2014.

Please see CSO here:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2014/

2015 data is 864.09 pw in fourth quarter.

So 45,088 in 2015

screamer

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Ah yeah I said I wanted a free house...and want the government to pay for it.

Seriously read the thread.

I never said you wanted anything for free. But you want the government to take action so you can have what you want..... doesn't work like that....... it didn't work for people whose homes were reposessed with massive debt to repay and it won't happen now either to facilitate new mortgage applications.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

screamer wrote: »

I never said you wanted anything for free. But you want the government to take action so you can have what you want..... doesn't work like that....... it didn't work for people whose homes were reposessed with massive debt to repay and it won't happen now either to facilitate new mortgage applications.

Hasn't happened yet but doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the situation in the future which is all I'm saying.

wally79

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Hasn't happened yet but doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the situation in the future which is all I'm saying.

But won't there always be people who earn more than you and will price you out of the house in the nice area

Edit: Not you as in you personally but just a general comment

0gac3yjefb5sv7

wally79 wrote: »

But won't there always be people who earn more than you and will price you out of the house in the nice area

Not really - of course there will always be people earning more but the regular public should have a good chance of owning somewhere reasonably close to where they work.

wally79

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Not really - of course there will always be people earning more but the regular public should have a good chance of owning somewhere reasonably close to where they work.

So what would be your definition of reasonably close?

Skatedude

eeguy wrote: »

There's very few one and two bed apartments in the city. Walk 5 mins in any direction from O'Connell St, and you see terraced houses.
Apartments in Dublin are usually houses which have been poorly subdivided into separate dwellings.



That's true, 120k cars throughout the 24hrs of the day.

But these 4k cars would almost universally be commuters.

I can't find hourly stats, but for arguments sake say there's 60k cars during the 7-9am and 5-7pm rush hour slots.

So 60k cars in 4 hours.
If you could reduce this by 4k, then that 7% reduction.
Not bad considering it's a side benefit to solving a totally separate housing crisis.

Actually I wouldnt want a house because i'm single and prefer an open plan setup. I have been saving all my life and paying all the bills for my mother who is getting on in life. I managed to raise near 100k which I used to build an 1 room appartment at the end of my mothers garden which is nearly done. It was only possible because the house was semi detached and has a side door to the garden. I'm very happy with it, but many people would not have that option and the housing situation still needs to be addressed.

Mrs OBumble

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Yes but how many couples would both people be on 50k. I'm talking about the majority of the public, bar staff, receptionists, hairdressers, cashiers etc.

The majority of the public are not in these low skill, low pay jobs.

Some are - and I agree that the threshold for social housing eligibility in Dublin anyway is now too low. (Was 36k after tax and various things, last time I looked. )

But I would sincerely hope that few people who went to college and got a good degree are still doing these jobs by now. Yes, many graduates did them during the recession - and some who went to college later in life got stuck in them if they happened to graduate later in life. But for most they will be starter jobs