Is there any argument to be made for legalising drugs ?

DonnchadhMac

I heard someone discussing this earlier and I was wondering is there any argument to be made for legalising drugs? Would it decrease the dangers of there's a safer environment and safer way to dispose of "equipment" ? Would more people seeking for help? I dont honestly.

Honestly my idea would be that anyone who would be seeking rehabilitation and giving up the drugs be immune from prosecution?

Sorry if this is the wrong forum btw

FortySeven

Many good reasons. The money is removed from criminal hands. Product is much safer. Prices can be reduced and so less crime. Money saved on healthcare. Money saved on the war we lose daily.

Many, many more reasons.

newacc2015

I think you mean decriminalisation. Decriminalisation is about treating drug addiction, as a health issue and not a criminal issue. Meaning you put people in therapy instead of prisons, which doesnt deal with the reason why are there in the first place. Even in America they acknowledge this. If you have a drinking problem, the court sends you to addiction classes. Yet if you are addicted to heroin you are sent to prison. Why is there a double standard for the same problem which is addiction?

The scientific reason for decriminalisation drugs is that some arent actually that harmful. Individuals like Professor David Nutt believe horse riding is more dangerous than MDMA. If you look at alcohol objectively, the harm to users and society is quite high. If alcohol was developed tomorrow. I imagine it would be made illegal, as it is quite addictive and damaging to the body. Yet is legal despite the massive issues it causes to the user and society.

Here is David Nutts drug policy simplified

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nutt

Legalising Cannabis would create thousands of legit jobs in Ireland, create tax revenue and help tourism. Colorado collected $135million in taxes and license fees from Cannabis last year alone. It is now a $1bn dollar industry in Colorado. Legalising Cannabis could collect hundreds of millions in VAT, PAYE & PRSI from employees and Corporation tax. It could be used to create jobs in parts of Ireland, where there is little employment as it a light product.

Also there is the fact tons Garda time is spent on petty drug cases. If Garda werent going to court to have people charged for a joint. Time could be spent on dealing with serious issues like thefts

Berserker

FortySeven wrote: »

Many good reasons. The money is removed from criminal hands. Product is much safer. Prices can be reduced and so less crime. Money saved on healthcare. Money saved on the war we lose daily.

Many, many more reasons.

Firstly, legalizing drugs will not remove them from criminal hands. They'll push other, strong, illegal drugs and/or they'll sell the same drug cheaper than the legal vendor. You also have to take into account the social cost of legalization. I lived in Amsterdam and the red light district and many of the parks in central Amsterdam are essentially no-go areas for families.

newacc2015 wrote: »

Also there is the fact tons Garda time is spent on petty drug cases. If Garda werent going to court to have people charged for a joint. Time could be spent on dealing with serious issues like thefts

I can only speak from personal experience on this. My neighbour in Amsterdam was a police officer. Prior to legalization, he spent most of his days catching and convicting people involved in drugs. Post legalization, he spent and spends most his days working in the RLD, as an undercover cop, apprehending users who rob locals and tourists. Finally, the number of coffee shops in Amsterdam is dropping. I have been told by the same cop that there are only 200 now. There were 300+ a few years ago. That may be incorrect but he is usually spot on about these things. Your employment figures are way off btw. Politics in the Netherlands is becoming more conservative and I expect to see stronger restrictions around the availability of drugs coming into force.

InTheTrees

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, legalizing drugs will not remove them from criminal hands. They'll push other, strong, illegal drugs and/or they'll sell the same drug cheaper than the legal vendor. You also have to take into account the social cost of legalization. I lived in Amsterdam and the red light district and many of the parks in central Amsterdam are essentially no-go areas for families.

I live in Seattle in Washington state, that along with the State of Colorado legalised Cannabis two years ago.

It is fully legal. You can walk into a shop and buy it over the counter (as long as you're over 18).

Marijuana growers and retailers have to go through a state licensing procedure. Product for sale is only grown in Washington State and is traceable from farm to retail outlet. All product is labelled with specific information regarding strain, origin and potency, etc. There is no room for illegal untaxed cannabis to enter the retail system.

There's been numerous benefits.

- Less crime. Huge savings in Law enforcement resources, court and legal costs.

- Huge tax benefits to the state.

- Its more difficult for the under-18's to access now as street dealers have gone away.

- Evidence shows that legal Cannabis isnt a "gateway" to Illegal drug use.

Washington and Colorado startedthe ball rolling and since theose states ave had a positive result Oregon and Alaska have since voted to legalise. California is due to vote on it this November and its expected to pass.

InTheTrees

Berserker wrote: »

I can only speak from personal experience on this. My neighbour in Amsterdam was a police officer. Prior to legalization, he spent most of his days catching and convicting people involved in drugs. Post legalization, he spent and spends most his days working in the RLD, as an undercover cop, apprehending users who rob locals and tourists.

Cannabis is not legal in The Netherlands. The city of Amsterdam has some very lenient tolerant rules about use but its still illegal isnt it?

There's no legal supply for instance. There's still smuggling and drug gangs as far as I know. There's no rules about ingredients or quality are there?

Zubeneschamali

DonnchadhMac wrote: »

I heard someone discussing this earlier and I was wondering is there any argument to be made for legalising drugs? Would it decrease the dangers of there's a safer environment and safer way to dispose of "equipment" ? Would more people seeking for help? I dont honestly.

I'd give anyone who wants it a prescription, and they could get heroin at cost. I don't know if this would be good for them, but I don't care. It would destroy the drugs gangs, violence and all the theft that addicts commit now to feed their expensive habit - expensive simply because it's illegal.

rubberdiddies

newacc2015 wrote: »

I think you mean decriminalisation. Decriminalisation is about treating drug addiction, as a health issue and not a criminal issue. Meaning you put people in therapy instead of prisons, which doesnt deal with the reason why are there in the first place. Even in America they acknowledge this. If you have a drinking problem, the court sends you to addiction classes. Yet if you are addicted to heroin you are sent to prison. Why is there a double standard for the same problem which is addiction?

I think though it's more likely that people with heroin addiction are being sent to prison for stealing money to feed that addiction, not for the addiction itself.

If it is legalised I'd imagine people will still have to steal money to be able to pay for it. It will still be addictive.

The only real plus side I can see is it will take it out of the hands of drug gangs. But realistically they aren't going to want to give up their lifestyles so will surely just find another illegal activity to terrorise people with

Del2005

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, legalizing drugs will not remove them from criminal hands. They'll push other, strong, illegal drugs and/or they'll sell the same drug cheaper than the legal vendor. You also have to take into account the social cost of legalization. I lived in Amsterdam and the red light district and many of the parks in central Amsterdam are essentially no-go areas for families.



I can only speak from personal experience on this. My neighbour in Amsterdam was a police officer. Prior to legalization, he spent most of his days catching and convicting people involved in drugs. Post legalization, he spent and spends most his days working in the RLD, as an undercover cop, apprehending users who rob locals and tourists. Finally, the number of coffee shops in Amsterdam is dropping. I have been told by the same cop that there are only 200 now. There were 300+ a few years ago. That may be incorrect but he is usually spot on about these things. Your employment figures are way off btw. Politics in the Netherlands is becoming more conservative and I expect to see stronger restrictions around the availability of drugs coming into force.

There are plenty of scumbags to rob tourists in busy tourist areas in every country it's not unique to Amsterdam's red light district or Temple bar in Dublin. If you go to any of the trail heads around the Dublin/Wicklow mountains you'll find piles of broken glass from walkers/bikers cars been broken into, should we ban activities on our mountains because scumbags break into unattended vehicles?

Could the reduction in coffee shops be due to other countries liberalising their cannabis laws? More options for people to go for a smoke means Amsterdam has lost its monopoly, less customers means less coffee shops.

Edit...
The head shops in Ireland showed that legalised drugs did take them out of the criminals. The dealers lost huge business and they benefited hugely when they were banned. I know that there are major issues with 'legal' highs but they showed that Irish people will buy from tax paying shops instead of murdering dealers if given the choice.

jack923

DonnchadhMac wrote: »

I heard someone discussing this earlier and I was wondering is there any argument to be made for legalising drugs? Would it decrease the dangers of there's a safer environment and safer way to dispose of "equipment" ? Would more people seeking for help? I dont honestly.

Honestly my idea would be that anyone who would be seeking rehabilitation and giving up the drugs be immune from prosecution?

Sorry if this is the wrong forum btw

The argument is that it's your body should be free to decide

Zillah

Berserker wrote: »

Firstly, legalizing drugs will not remove them from criminal hands. They'll push other, strong, illegal drugs and/or they'll sell the same drug cheaper than the legal vendor.

Just like all of the booze-hounds are getting wasted on cheap criminal bathtub poitin these days? People don't tend to use illegal, unknown, potentially-dangerous alternatives when there is a clean, safe, reasonable option. I don't pirate a movie when it's on netflix, I don't buy gutrot whiskey from some guy's backyard still when I can go to an offie, and I certainly don't buy some scanger's mystery hash when I can get premium regulated weed over the counter.

Berserker wrote: »

I lived in Amsterdam and the red light district and many of the parks in central Amsterdam are essentially no-go areas for families.

The very fact that Amsterdam has a RLD would suggest that it is not a useful comparison for, say, Dublin, which does not have a RLD, when it comes to the question of it being family-friendly. No one is suggesting prostitution and girls dancing in windows.

I went to a weed outlet in Washington state a while back. No interest myself but I was with a friend. The whole thing had the air of driving out to Woodies to pick up some screws and a bucket of paint. It was the most mundane, harmless, casual thing you could imagine.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Seanachai

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

I'd give anyone who wants it a prescription, and they could get heroin at cost. I don't know if this would be good for them, but I don't care. It would destroy the drugs gangs, violence and all the theft that addicts commit now to feed their expensive habit - expensive simply because it's illegal.

I wonder would it though, I think if people have to go through a rigorous process to get the hard drugs it would act as a deterrent in the same way that some people would be reluctant to buy porn in a sex shop. But it could also drive people underground to get it cheaper. I could see the system that they're using in Colorado for Cannabis working here even though they're having issues with people overdosing on food laced with it.

InTheTrees

Seanachai wrote: »

I could see the system that they're using in Colorado for Cannabis working here even though they're having issues with people overdosing on food laced with it.

"Edibles" are a huge part of the legal business. Go into a pot shop here in Seattle or in Colorado and they'll take up a quarter of the space in the shop. Drinks, sweets, Gum, sauces, tinctures, oils, etc etc.

Last year Colorado changed the packaging requirements to make Every "dose" separately packaged. So its not possible to eat an entire Bar of Chocolate for instance without unwrapping each piece.

I dont think it was ever a major issue though.

InTheTrees

Seanachai wrote: »

I could see the system that they're using in Colorado for Cannabis working here even though they're having issues with people overdosing on food laced with it.

Cannabis is pretty benign. An "overdose" means just sitting it out until it wears off. Not very pleasant but it wont kill you. Unless you eat over two kilos of it but that would be difficult.

http://www.newhealthguide.org/Can-You-Overdose-On-Marijuana.html

Seanachai

InTheTrees wrote: »

Cannabis is pretty benign. An "overdose" means just sitting it out until it wears off. Not very pleasant but it wont kill you. Unless you eat over two kilos of it but that would be difficult.

http://www.newhealthguide.org/Can-You-Overdose-On-Marijuana.html

I realise that, I've experienced it myself, it gives people who are dead set against the legalisation another excuse though. You'd have to make sure things like that are in order before it's rolled out.

Seanachai

InTheTrees wrote: »

"Edibles" are a huge part of the legal business. Go into a pot shop here in Seattle or in Colorado and they'll take up a quarter of the space in the shop. Drinks, sweets, Gum, sauces, tinctures, oils, etc etc.

Last year Colorado changed the packaging requirements to make Every "dose" separately packaged. So its not possible to eat an entire Bar of Chocolate for instance without unwrapping each piece.

I dont think it was ever a major issue though.

I saw that they were having issues with people eating whole bars and making themselves sick on a US tv piece. There's an element here in Ireland that would use something like this as an excuse to block the legalisation, they'd argue that the sweets etc are targeted at children and if they're left around the house kids could eat them.

InTheTrees

Seanachai wrote: »

I saw that they were having issues with people eating whole bars and making themselves sick on a US tv piece. There's an element here in Ireland that would use something like this as an excuse to block the legalisation, they'd argue that the sweets etc are targeted at children and if they're left around the house kids could eat them.

There were indeed a few incidents. A few suicides and there was a high profile one where a sheriff and his deputies ate a few bars of pot chocolate without realising.

The result as I said is that the packaging has been revised to a pharmaceutical level. Each "dose" is now packaged so a chocolate bar would have every few squares in its own kiddie proof packaging. A bit like over the counter medicines.

turnikett1

I don't see any argument for keeping it illegal, I really and truly don't. If someone wants to take a mind-altering substance, using their own money, their own free time, putting their own mental and physical health at potential risk, then why stop them!? Alcohol and cigarettes are among the most lethal of drugs, and also the most addictive. I'd even say tobacco is hands down the most dangerous and most addictive drug there is, yet it's completely legal. My list of why all drugs should be legalised

It's a personal choice
Will severely diminish drug-related criminality
Provision of CLEAN, safe, tested drugs alongside a plethora of usage information would greatly reduce illness/death related to drugs
Untold billions of revenue
Availability of drugs=/= increased drug usage. Perhaps even the opposite. For example, the Netherlands has one of the lowest rates of cannabis consumption in all of Europe despite cannabis being borderline legal. I spoke to some Dutch friends (the majority of whom don't smoke cannabis) about this and they said while growing up they were just never enticed by it since it was so readily available. There was never any thrill or taboo about secretely smoking weed, so when they did finally smoke weed under perfectly secure circumstances, they were underwhelmed and disinterested by it. I don't see why this would be specific to the Netherlands.
Increased and better support for rehablitation/addicts
Drugs are fun!

I'm back from the Netherlands for my 3rd time now and I just still can't fathom at how backwards so much of the world is when it comes to this. I can maybe understand why many people might not feel comfortable legalising all drugs, but at the very, very least cannabis should be legalised. Why should I be a criminal who faces potential legal trouble just for smoking a plant that has proven medicinal qualities? Yet if I want I can happily smoke a fag, slowly kill myself, blow second hand smoke around town potentially spreading cancer to other people? I can get sh*tfaced on drink, vomit in town, convince myself I can drive home and run somebody over? I find it absurd to say the least. Illegalising drugs doesn't make them disappear - history has proven that when something is prohibited, people will get a hold of it, often through dodgy, shady means where there is no fallback because it's illegal. I can't even fathom the amount of despicable gangs that thrive on violence, brutality and murder that exist solely to provide illegal black market drugs. Aren't most if not ALL the cartels in Mexico simply fronts for trafficking drugs? For me, it's so black and white. Legal drugs = government funded, clean drugs with plenty of information on how to use them, plenty of support and rehabilitation for addicts. Illegal drugs = gangster funded drugs that could and do have ANYTHING in them, including poisonous chemicals, widespread misinformation and ignorance of drugs and their effects, limited support for rehablitation and addicts, prisons needlessly full of drug related offenders.

If anyone has an honest argument as to why drugs should be illegal then I am curious to hear, because like I said, for me it is an absolute no brainer. The reason most drugs are illegal today is because 1800s/1900s capitalist industries were facing competition from an ungoverned drug market (take the hemp industry for example, in the '30s). Easiest way to deal with it? Just ban them all outright. No drugs, no competition, no problem. It actually drives me mad how this "war on drugs" actually exists. I can't even conceive how many lives have been ruined and destroyed not by drugs, but by their illegality and this phoney "war" on them fabricated by Nixon and fellow cronies.

Seanachai

turnikett1 wrote: »

I don't see any argument for keeping it illegal, I really and truly don't. If someone wants to take a mind-altering substance, using their own money, their own free time, putting their own mental and physical health at potential risk, then why stop them!? Alcohol and cigarettes are among the most lethal of drugs, and also the most addictive. I'd even say tobacco is hands down the most dangerous and most addictive drug there is, yet it's completely legal. My list of why all drugs should be legalised

It's a personal choice
Will severely diminish drug-related criminality
Provision of CLEAN, safe, tested drugs alongside a plethora of usage information would greatly reduce illness/death related to drugs
Untold billions of revenue
Availability of drugs=/= increased drug usage. Perhaps even the opposite. For example, the Netherlands has one of the lowest rates of cannabis consumption in all of Europe despite cannabis being borderline legal. I spoke to some Dutch friends (the majority of whom don't smoke cannabis) about this and they said while growing up they were just never enticed by it since it was so readily available. There was never any thrill or taboo about secretely smoking weed, so when they did finally smoke weed under perfectly secure circumstances, they were underwhelmed and disinterested by it. I don't see why this would be specific to the Netherlands.
Increased and better support for rehablitation/addicts
Drugs are fun!

I'm back from the Netherlands for my 3rd time now and I just still can't fathom at how backwards so much of the world is when it comes to this. I can maybe understand why many people might not feel comfortable legalising all drugs, but at the very, very least cannabis should be legalised. Why should I be a criminal who faces potential legal trouble just for smoking a plant that has proven medicinal qualities? Yet if I want I can happily smoke a fag, slowly kill myself, blow second hand smoke around town potentially spreading cancer to other people? I can get sh*tfaced on drink, vomit in town, convince myself I can drive home and run somebody over? I find it absurd to say the least. Illegalising drugs doesn't make them disappear - history has proven that when something is prohibited, people will get a hold of it, often through dodgy, shady means where there is no fallback because it's illegal. I can't even fathom the amount of despicable gangs that thrive on violence, brutality and murder that exist solely to provide illegal black market drugs. Aren't most if not ALL the cartels in Mexico simply fronts for trafficking drugs? For me, it's so black and white. Legal drugs = government funded, clean drugs with plenty of information on how to use them, plenty of support and rehabilitation for addicts. Illegal drugs = gangster funded drugs that could and do have ANYTHING in them, including poisonous chemicals, widespread misinformation and ignorance of drugs and their effects, limited support for rehablitation and addicts, prisons needlessly full of drug related offenders.

If anyone has an honest argument as to why drugs should be illegal then I am curious to hear, because like I said, for me it is an absolute no brainer. The reason most drugs are illegal today is because 1800s/1900s capitalist industries were facing competition from an ungoverned drug market (take the hemp industry for example, in the '30s). Easiest way to deal with it? Just ban them all outright. No drugs, no competition, no problem. It actually drives me mad how this "war on drugs" actually exists. I can't even conceive how many lives have been ruined and destroyed not by drugs, but by their illegality and this phoney "war" on them fabricated by Nixon and fellow cronies.

I agree with most of what you're saying, I do wonder though if it's the additives in tobacco that cause more harm than the tobacco itself. How much do we actually know about who exactly is involved in moving drugs around? Is the reason they remain illegal because the current situation just suits corrupt people in government, business and law enforcement much better?