Will electric car sales accelerate?

nightster1

Surely the government (if we have one) will have to heavily subsidise electric car sales if were to meet emission standards.

Should we expect cheaper new electric cars as a result? I think i'll wait and see, rather than splash out on a Leaf now!!!!

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/use-of-electric-cars-must-be-accelerated-to-meet-renewable-energy-targets-391534.html

Yawlboy

Well we are currently subsidizing the beef/dairy industry which produces a lot more harmful emissions than all the cars on the roads. I suppose there isn't any money left over for the motor industry.

steelboots

I don't think its the cost of the EV that is putting people off so much, I think we need to do the following to grow the EV population:

1) Free tolls.
2) More fast charging points. Its hard to believe the new Bird Hill and Obama plaza don't have fast chargers, and the last two times I arrived in Portlaois the FCP was in use delaying em by approx 15-20mins each time
3) Charging points in popular areas such as supermarket car parks, restaurants etc...
4) There needs to be a clear road map for increased charging points as the EV population grows.
5) Free road tax (yes €120 is low anyway but it would be a selling point to none at all).
6) Education, there are still a lot of ignorance about EVs.
7) Free parking at charging points but limit time allowed to park there, to ensure availability to all.
8) Give employers incentives to install charging points for employees.

Very little is being do to push EVs in this country. I don't see why 10%+ of our cars could be EVs in a relatively short space of time.

omicron

Yawlboy wrote: »

Well we are currently subsidizing the beef/dairy industry which produces a lot more harmful emissions than all the cars on the roads. I suppose there isn't any money left over for the motor industry.

We don't have a motor industry.

The answer is yes they must and they will because for every % over our emissions target is a crazy 65-130 "million euro" fine !!!

We need 50,000 electrics on the road by 2020 if we are to meet our targets for then, and while I don't agree that these Co2 emissions are of any concern to the Earth, it's no bad thing that it will hopefully greatly reduce actual harmful emissions. SO I am in favour of anything that provides cleaner air with a less chance of getting cancer and damaging the Ozone and causing acid rain.

They must eliminate VRT and reduce VAT to 10% on electric cars, leafe tax also keep tax on existing cars the same but greatly increase tax on petrol and especially diesel cars. Fuel is already too expensive so they should do it right and tax all new diesels off the road.

It's not as simple as this though because the manufacturers themselves need to electrify a lot more if not all their fleet. And range needs to improve.

I would say that they can announce that in 2 years time that they are going to tax new ICE cars a hell of a lot higher but knowing Irish people they'll just buy twice as many ICE cars !!!

omicron

omicron wrote: »

We don't have a motor industry.

We don't have an auto industry but we will pay a huge cost if we don't get a lot more electrics on the road.

The easiest thing for the Government to do though is to let the tax payer pay the fines like we paid for the Banks !

NIMAN

Didn't the Government release a target for no. of EVs on the road a couple of years back?

boardzz

Sales will accelerate a lot more once 60Kwh batteries start coming in a couple of years.
You can give all the incentives you want but there is still people who won't even consider the cars until they have minimum 350Km range.

nightster1

it does not make economic sense to buy an EV presently. We are all aware of range issues etc. The only way to increase EV no's is to make them cheaper to buy and run compared to ICE's

Yawlboy

omicron wrote: »

We don't have a motor industry.

You'd better tell this crowd then http://www.simi.ie/

steelboots

nightster1 wrote: »

it does not make economic sense to buy an EV presently. We are all aware of range issues etc. The only way to increase EV no's is to make them cheaper to buy and run compared to ICE's

A leaf is about the same price as an equivalent ICE, and much cheaper to run (fuel & servicing). Practically maintenance free. No expensive items such as DPF Filter, Turbos, Cat, timing belt etc....

As regards the range how many people (particularly in a two car household) need a second car with a range greater than 140km ? I have done a number of trips (my last one was 320kms in the day and it cost me €1 (as I used public charging) and your telling me it dosn;t make economic sense ? I saved €19 in that one trip.

nightster1

steelboots wrote: »

A leaf is about the same price as an equivalent ICE, and much cheaper to run (fuel & servicing). Practically maintenance free. No expensive items such as DPF Filter, Turbos, Cat, timing belt etc....

As regards the range how many people (particularly in a two car household) need a second car with a range greater than 140km ? I have done a number of trips (my last one was 320kms in the day and it cost me €1 (as I used public charging) and your telling me it dosn;t make economic sense ? I saved €19 in that one trip.

No doubt you can make savings when you plan out trips to benefit from free charging stations. This however does require much planning. It is for example, much more convent to jump into your ICE car in the knowledge that there is no shortage of fuel stations around the country.

When comparing running costs, you need to factor in wear and tear on the tyres, steering, suspension and electric motors such as wipers, heating and of course the electric engine.

I am, however a fan of EV's and really want to buy one, but i will not, due the present high initial capital cost and poor supply of charging stations .

I couldn't just make a spontaneous decision to take out an EV, I'd need to be sure that i'd have sufficient charge. With an ICE car, I'd never be too far from a petrol pump

steelboots

nightster1 wrote: »

No doubt you can make savings when you plan out trips to benefit from free charging stations. This however does require much planning. It is for example, much more convent to jump into your ICE car in the knowledge that there is no shortage of fuel stations around the country.

Not much planning required, Nissan have a great rout planner and you simply tap in the to and from locations, your speed, and expected air temp and usual sat nav type settings and it will work it all out for you and you can then upload to the car and use this route.

nightster1 wrote: »

When comparing running costs, you need to factor in wear and tear on the tyres, steering, suspension and electric motors such as wipers, heating and of course the electric engine.

Both EV's & ICEs have tyres, wiper motors etc.. so thas a given, but there is no servicing on an eletric motor or batteries and haven;t heard of any failing yet. On the other hand I've had to replace a DFP filter, timing belt and two turbos on an ICE (granted second turbo was under warranty) costing me €2,750

Regarding charging, currently I believe until ranges increases, they are really geared towards those using them for a commuter car and charging at night. If you have to use public charging points for a regular commute then maybe there not for you. I have the choice of an ICE on my weekend trips but I always go for the EV and save the few quid.

Yawlboy

I think that we all agree that the limitation on the mass adoption of EV's is the inability to charge quickly when and where you need to. Current 3kW/6.6kW/ even 22kW chargers are simply too slow, its like putting petrol in a car using a spoon.

If an EV with a 300km range could be charged to 80% in under 5 mins and charging points were as common as Petrol stations then Joe Public wouldn't have a problem. Initiatives like the 150kW - 300kW charging from FastNed and the low cost EV's to take advantage are what is needed.

So another 10 to 20 years unless the EU forces change earlier.

Note( Sorry for the double post but I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread earlier)

stesaurus

nightster1 wrote: »

No doubt you can make savings when you plan out trips to benefit from free charging stations. This however does require much planning. It is for example, much more convent to jump into your ICE car in the knowledge that there is no shortage of fuel stations around the country.

When comparing running costs, you need to factor in wear and tear on the tyres, steering, suspension and electric motors such as wipers, heating and of course the electric engine.

I am, however a fan of EV's and really want to buy one, but i will not, due the present high initial capital cost and poor supply of charging stations .

I couldn't just make a spontaneous decision to take out an EV, I'd need to be sure that i'd have sufficient charge. With an ICE car, I'd never be too far from a petrol pump

Do you go on many spontaneous trips across the country, or leave but have no idea of destination or distance? There's no need for planning unless going on really long trips. I've managed 15000km after 6 months ownership which is twice my normal because of it being so cheap and fun to drive.
No need to worry about short trips doing damage either or crap mpg in traffic.
Your home is your petrol station so when you sit down and think about it people generally don't venture outside normal EV range on a day to day basis.

There's a definite economic benefit to an EV but it should go without saying you don't spend 30-40k to try to save money each week/year. Unless its to buy a cheap tax diesel, then it makes perfect sense! An EV probably only make sense if you're looking at a new or additional car.

NIMAN

If you live a fairly regimented life with regular trips to the shops, in laws, work etc, then an EV is probably fine.

If you have a 2nd car, an EV is probably fine too.

I think many people use range as the main reason not to buy one even though in the vast majority of cases there is nothing really stopping them as these sudden, imaginery, long trips never happen.

I seriously considered an EV last time I changed, but went with ICE again for one reason, I was worried about future re-sale value of the EV, nothing to do with range anxiety though.

stesaurus

Yawlboy wrote: »

I think that we all agree that the limitation on the mass adoption of EV's is the inability to charge quickly when and where you need to. Current 3kW/6.6kW/ even 22kW chargers are simply too slow, its like putting petrol in a car using a spoon.

If an EV with a 300km range could be charged to 80% in under 5 mins and charging points were as common as Petrol stations then Joe Public wouldn't have a problem. Initiatives like the 150kW - 300kW charging from FastNed and the low cost EV's to take advantage are what is needed.

So another 10 to 20 years unless the EU forces change earlier.

Note( Sorry for the double post but I accidentally posted this in the wrong thread earlier)

Depends on the usage, SCP are fine if doing shopping or cinema etc. I went to a gig at the 3 Arena the other night and came back out to a fully charged EV.

5 min fast charging would be amazing but no way our grid can handle that. I'd prefer multiple running at 50kw than queuing at 1 single super fcp while someone uses it to get to 100%
Again though it all depends on upgrading the local grids to handle that level of charging. Might be a while off and may need the likes of fastned to supply those.

5 min fast charging ? not going to happen this decade at least, perhaps 10 mins once they bump the voltage to 600-800 volts like VW are working on but this means again, a change in charging standard.

If you have 300-350 kms from your home charger and you can charge up to 80% in 60 mins for a further 260 kms this is 600 kms, it's likely with the exception of the GM Bolt/Ampera-E that most 300+ km range electrics will have 100+ Kw charging. The Tesla model 3 will have 100+ Kw charging this means a further 250-260 kms in about 25-30 mins.

There are many countries where incentives are far better than Ireland have EV sales far higher than in Ireland where quiet a lot of people might take a trip past 200 kms a couple of times a year.

We have 2 cars but neither car is the 2nd car but the leaf does a lot more mileage, currently 34,200 kms since last January, yes it's and adjustment but most of the time it's not and yes work charging helps a lot. However a 300 km range EV won't need work charging.

Lack of choice is also a concern as car makers are very slow to electrify their fleets. Even Nissan show absolutely 0 sign of another EV model up to 2020.

Ireland is purely addicted to Diesel and we need a lot of encouragement to get off it and the worrying part is the massive increase of car sales this year , 60% + will be the most polluting vehicles, Diesel ! Most Irish people are buying a car that is completely unsuitable for their needs.

NIMAN

But the road tax is low, ya fool.

homer911

nightster1 wrote: »

it does not make economic sense to buy an EV presently. We are all aware of range issues etc.

Lots of people clearly disagree with you

ted1

steelboots wrote: »

A leaf is about the same price as an equivalent ICE, and much cheaper to run (fuel & servicing). Practically maintenance free. No expensive items such as DPF Filter, Turbos, Cat, timing belt etc....

As regards the range how many people (particularly in a two car household) need a second car with a range greater than 140km ? I have done a number of trips (my last one was 320kms in the day and it cost me €1 (as I used public charging) and your telling me it dosn;t make economic sense ? I saved €19 in that one trip.

How long did you stop off to charge, time is money.
People want a 300km+ range, that's why there's such a small take up of EV, look at what happened when the first affordable 300km+ car was launched.

Do people here actually think most people car about what powers a car ? I don't and I know most people I've talked to don't care as long as it drives and it's what they deem affordable.

Most of the diesel drivers that drive short - medium distance pay 20-30 Euro's a week in Diesel and forget about it and they don't want to know anything different. Pollution is very far from their minds.

Balmed Out

A big factor is the lack of choice of electric vehicles. I wanted to buy but didn't as my wife wanted a bigger boot basically.

BoatMad

nightster1 wrote: »

it does not make economic sense to buy an EV presently. We are all aware of range issues etc. The only way to increase EV no's is to make them cheaper to buy and run compared to ICE's

sorry , at about 1 euro per 100km at present, you want EVs to be cheaper to run !!!!!

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

How long did you stop off to charge, time is money.
People want a 300km+ range, that's why there's such a small take up of EV, look at what happened when the first affordable 300km+ car was launched.

for most people, time is NOT money , they are paid for a fixed time. Few people can turn leisure time into money , so lets park that one

The fact is today I charge at stations where I typically buy lunch , I return to a fully charged car ( free) , very little different to my ICE days

BEVs takeup is as much a matter of ignorance and mis-facts ( when we mentioned we were buying a BEV, we kept getting asked, but its slow, or tiny , or can only got round a housing estate etc )

we formed the opinion most people think BEVs are small milk floats

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

for most people, time is NOT money , they are paid for a fixed time. Few people can turn leisure time into money , so lets park that one

The fact is today I charge at stations where I typically buy lunch , I return to a fully charged car ( free) , very little different to my ICE days

BEVs takeup is as much a matter of ignorance and mis-facts ( when we mentioned we were buying a BEV, we kept getting asked, but its slow, or tiny , or can only got round a housing estate etc )

we formed the opinion most people think BEVs are small milk floats

Time is money, people would rather pay for petrol or diesel than stop off and charge their vehicle on their way to some where.

What happens when there is a greater take up and suddenly you can't charge during lunch as there is other cars there.

Anybody who I talk to put range down as their number 1 reason for not getting one, the second is charge time.

We have 2 chargers at work , but these are generally used by the company e-cars. So someone in my workplace would have to get out if the car leave the car park drive around tie looking for a free charge point , park up and hope that they get a charge before they need to get back to the office

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Time is money, people would rather pay for petrol or diesel than stop off and charge their vehicle on their way to some where.

Myself and wife can be classified as "people" and we don't. Our teenage daughter agrees with you though.

ted1 wrote: »

What happens when there is a greater take up and suddenly you can't charge during lunch as there is other cars there.

Don't charge at lunch time and/or buy an EV with a range you never need to charge during normal driving.

ted1 wrote: »

Anybody who I talk to put range down as their number 1 reason for not getting one, the second is charge time.

I normally sleep when the car is charging and it's probably the same for most of the EV owners unless they can't charge at home.

ted1 wrote: »

We have 2 chargers at work , but these are generally used by the company e-cars. So someone in my workplace would have to get out if the car leave the car park drive around tie looking for a free charge point , park up and hope that they get a charge before they need to get back to the office

More chargers needed then and/or people who need to charge during work day need longer range EVs.

ted1

samih wrote: »

Myself and wife can be classified as "people" and we don't. Our teenage daughter agrees with you though.



Don't charge at lunch time and/or buy an EV with a range you never need to charge during normal driving.



I normally sleep when the car is charging and it's probably the same for most of the EV owners unless they can't charge at home.



More chargers needed then and/or people who need to charge during work day need longer range EVs.

Exactly larger ranges are what is needed.

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

Time is money, people would rather pay for petrol or diesel than stop off and charge their vehicle on their way to some where.

What happens when there is a greater take up and suddenly you can't charge during lunch as there is other cars there.

Anybody who I talk to put range down as their number 1 reason for not getting one, the second is charge time.

We have 2 chargers at work , but these are generally used by the company e-cars. So someone in my workplace would have to get out if the car leave the car park drive around tie looking for a free charge point , park up and hope that they get a charge before they need to get back to the office

nobody is suggesting its a walk in the park and as numbers slowly increase and the charging network is essentially fossilised for the moment , yes there could be a crunch point

Anyone Ive talked to that has not investigated EVs reasonably well, especially BEVs ( punters get mixed up) tend to have a terrible understanding of range and charge times. most think the car can do about 30km and a speed of about walking pace. ordinary ICE punters have no idea of charge times or range

anyone who has done serious research , in the main , is seriously impressed and most often doesnt buy because they are not cheap cars

BoatMad

The fact is and its clear to many Leaf owners here, ( amongst BEVs ) that the car is entirely practical and at present the fuel saving and running costs saving is huge .

yes there are " edge " cases and you if are doing long journeys , you need to plan and you need to allow extra time if you have to divert or wait . its not helped by the applying lack of real time data from the charge points which is a major drawback in journey planning

grater range will solve this , but equally many people dont want any more range or have the time to slip coffee while the car recharges

in my business, I tend to need contact with a computer. and in ICE driving I often have to sit in service cafes logged on to Wifi for a hour or even two at a time. So in fact it rather suits me. However I driver less and less for work, preferring Skype.

for my wife, on a fixed commute, the car is perfect and having got over some initial range aniexty issues, now can plan routes to be near chargers etc, while I mentioned that her non commute journeys costs are €0

like a lot of thing the reality is not as bad as the predictions

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

The fact is and its clear to many Leaf owners here, ( amongst BEVs ) that the car is entirely practical and at present the fuel saving and running costs saving is huge .

yes there are " edge " cases and you if are doing long journeys , you need to plan and you need to allow extra time if you have to divert or wait . its not helped by the applying lack of real time data from the charge points which is a major drawback in journey planning

grater range will solve this , but equally many people dont want any more range or have the time to slip coffee while the car recharges

in my business, I tend to need contact with a computer. and in ICE driving I often have to sit in service cafes logged on to Wifi for a hour or even two at a time. So in fact it rather suits me. However I driver less and less for work, preferring Skype.

for my wife, on a fixed commute, the car is perfect and having got over some initial range aniexty issues, now can plan routes to be near chargers etc, while I mentioned that her non commute journeys costs are €0

like a lot of thing the reality is not as bad as the predictions

So your the exception , the bottom line is for sales to accelerate the range needs to be 300+.