Will electric car sales accelerate?

It's funny , most people I talk to simply have no interest in an Ev, range an all that is part of the equation but the majority of people I asked said the thought wouldn't enter their head about buying an ev simply because they don't know anything about them that the thing to think about when buying a car is that it has to be diesel.

A few Neighbours that bought a car recently 2nd hand 2-3 years said they bought diesel because of the cheaper "road tax" they are old fashioned coal burners who won't change. To them even coal is cheaper than burning oil which is pure nonsense people just have a idea about something without doing proper research and are quiet happy to live in ignorance. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm superior because I drive a leaf, and I fully accept people can choose to drive whatever they want but it does annoy me when people have the wrong idea about something and choose to ignore facts, the "I know I'm always right" attitude even when it's obvious they're not.

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

So your the exception , the bottom line is for sales to accelerate the range needs to be 300+.

no I think this is an incorrect assumption as it assume that all car buyers are the same.

Range in itself is not the issue , I only put 25 of diesel into my truck at a time , because I know I can refuel easily

its more a combination of recharging infrastructure and range that needs to be addressed

pure range in itself is no good if the infrastructure isn't capable of recharging very large powerful batteries

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

It's funny , most people I talk to simply have no interest in an Ev, range an all that is part of the equation but the majority of people I asked said the thought wouldn't enter their head about buying an ev simply because they don't know anything about them that the thing to think about when buying a car is that it has to be diesel.

A few Neighbours that bought a car recently 2nd hand 2-3 years said they bought diesel because of the cheaper "road tax" they are old fashioned coal burners who won't change. To them even coal is cheaper than burning oil which is pure nonsense people just have a idea about something without doing proper research and are quiet happy to live in ignorance. Now don't get me wrong, I don't think I'm superior because I drive a leaf, and I fully accept people can choose to drive whatever they want but it does annoy me when people have the wrong idea about something and choose to ignore facts, the "I know I'm always right" attitude even when it's obvious they're not.

I fully agree :eek:, most people , it never enters their head, they simply no nothing about BEVs.

secondly virtually no one , I know , does a proper TCO on the car they are buying , in fact most dont even compute the cost of credit , just looking at monthlies etc

in fact Ive found , where you show people the car ( dispelling the milk float issue) and then run through the operating costs , you get a major spike of interest

but of course most people just do what they know and dont want change

12Phase

The big issue is range. That's being solved.
I think Tesla's new model will drive a lot of the big brands to follow


Bear in mind people have adopted hybrids in large numbers and the Prius has been a runaway success because it's very practical.

EV needs to reach that level yet. It's getting there but only just.

BoatMad

12Phase wrote: »

The big issue is range. That's being solved.
I think Tesla's new model will drive a lot of the big brands to follow


Bear in mind people have adopted hybrids in large numbers and the Prius has been a runaway success because it's very practical.

EV needs to reach that level yet. It's getting there but only just.

again , I would argue that range in itself is not what will drive BEVs. Range is useless if say you havent the power to recharge at home, or the FCP is packed with other BEVS, or full of outdated technology so that charge times are too slow with big batteries

Range in itself wont cut it .

ted1

BoatMad wrote: »

again , I would argue that range in itself is not what will drive BEVs. Range is useless if say you havent the power to recharge at home, or the FCP is packed with other BEVS, or full of outdated technology so that charge times are too slow with big batteries

Range in itself wont cut it .

Look as tesla a 300k range with over 300k of orders, the range was the first figure they announced.

With a range of 120k do you think that they would have got that many orders. The numbers speak for themselves

BoatMad

ted1 wrote: »

Look as tesla a 300k range with over 300k of orders, the range was the first figure they announced.

With a range of 120k do you think that they would have got that many orders. The numbers speak for themselves

I dont think you can place that " success " down to a single issue.

and remember Ford sold more mustangs when it was launched then all of Model 3 order put together and ford did it one year

12Phase

12Phase wrote: »

The big issue is range. That's being solved.
I think Tesla's new model will drive a lot of the big brands to follow


Bear in mind people have adopted hybrids in large numbers and the Prius has been a runaway success because it's very practical.

EV needs to reach that level yet. It's getting there but only just.

Hybrids weren't popular in Ireland either.

NIMAN

Since us Irish are obsessed with the road tax bottom line, I think making EV zero Road tax might help a bit.

Wouldn't be much loss to the exchequer either.

Every little helps.

ted1

ted1 wrote: »

Look as tesla a 300k range with over 300k of orders, the range was the first figure they announced.

With a range of 120k do you think that they would have got that many orders. The numbers speak for themselves

325,000 Orders now and growing ! :eek:

The Opel Ampera-E and Leaf II will have similar range.

BoatMad

NIMAN wrote: »

Since us Irish are obsessed with the road tax bottom line, I think making EV zero Road tax might help a bit.

Wouldn't be much loss to the exchequer either.

Every little helps.

I listed these before

Access to buslanes
free time limited city parking
free full time parking while actively charging
a commitment to 5 years free charging infrastructure and invest in same ( PPP with car companies )

at 120 quid Id put road tax well down the list

NIMAN

NIMAN wrote: »

Since us Irish are obsessed with the road tax bottom line, I think making EV zero Road tax might help a bit.

Wouldn't be much loss to the exchequer either.

Every little helps.

We will have to pay 60-130 Million per % over our emissions targets, which is major money and the Government are completely asleep on this issue so free motor tax and 5 K grant and 5 K VRT relief are nothing in comparison !

There needs to be free motor tax and completely 0 VRT and VAT reduced to 15% to kick off EV sales. We need 50,0000 Electrics on the road by 2020 !!!

BoatMad

completely 0 VRT and VAT reduced to 15%

jaysus , we'd be awash with Teslas huh. you'd be fed up seeing then on the M50 and Dalky would just be a nightmare

VRT reduction is a dubious way of making cars cheaper and is a big earner for the state

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I listed these before

Access to buslanes
free time limited city parking
free full time parking while actively charging
a commitment to 5 years free charging infrastructure and invest in same ( PPP with car companies )

at 120 quid Id put road tax well down the list

No, free parking while charging is not a good idea, the infrastructure is not for personal usage, so a 2 hr max limit should be imposed.

You can't have a 3.3 Kw Leaf and any slow charging EV charging for anything up to 7 hrs.

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

No, free parking while charging is not a good idea, the infrastructure is not for personal usage, so a 2 hr max limit should be imposed.

You can't have a 3.3 Kw Leaf and any slow charging EV charging for anything up to 7 hrs.

perhaps, but the issue is that people may actually need the charge and the range. in the longer term and with grater infrastructure I would agree with you, but not at the moment

more charges with free parking also helps too

thierry14

12Phase wrote: »

The big issue is range. That's being solved.
I think Tesla's new model will drive a lot of the big brands to follow


Bear in mind people have adopted hybrids in large numbers and the Prius has been a runaway success because it's very practical.

EV needs to reach that level yet. It's getting there but only just.

The biggest issue is they are worse than ICE.

If you have a lot of grass to cut you buy a petrol lawnmower.

If you have to cut down trees fast you buy a petrol chainsaw

So on

Until EV's are much better than ICE and cheaper to buy they won't be for everyone.

In 20 years they will be.

Battery drills are still ****

Battery drills are superb, just don't buy the cheap crap !

If you think rang alone is what makes ICE cars superior then you haven't owned an EV, I will not drive one unless I have to.

To me now, ICE cars are just piles of outdated junk with only sheer range the only thing worth while getting into one.

You buy a petrol chainsaw because you don't have a choice, the same with the lawnmower that needs to cut lots of grass.Not because batteries are crap.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Battery drills are superb, just don't buy the cheap crap !

If you think rang alone is what makes ICE cars superior then you haven't owned an EV, I will not drive one unless I have to.

To me now, ICE cars are just piles of outdated junk with only sheer range the only thing worth while getting into one.

You buy a petrol chainsaw because you don't have a choice, the same with the lawnmower that needs to cut lots of grass.Not because batteries are crap.

People buy the petrols because the electric cost/would cost a fortune for an inferior product.

The premise for EV's are great and in 20 years they will be many times better than ICE but right now and until say 2020 they are inferior, much.

Take your leaf, it's slow, no range, takes ages to charge and driving over 120kmh kills the battery in less than an hour, it's a poor product imo for the price.

Compared to a 30k 200bhp hot hatch like a Seat Leon FR it's a bore, slow etc etc and much inferior

EV's are poor value for money at the moment, not good enough.

Even the model 3 isn't great imo for the price

Del2005

thierry14 wrote: »

People buy the petrols because the electric cost/would cost a fortune for an inferior product.

The premise for EV's are great and in 20 years they will be many times better than ICE but right now and until say 2020 they are inferior, much.

Take your leaf, it's slow, no range, takes ages to charge and driving over 120kmh kills the battery in less than an hour, it's a poor product imo for the price.

Compared to a 30k 200bhp hot hatch like a Seat Leon FR it's a bore, slow etc etc and much inferior

EV's are poor value for money at the moment, not good enough.

Even the model 3 isn't great imo for the price

For the vast majority of people's journeys EV is better. But for some reason people think that the 1% of the time they use the benefits of a petrol or diesel means that they buy a completely unsuitable vehicle for the majority of their usage, look at the amount of people who bought diesel for the cheap tax and then have to replace DPF, turbo etc. They'd of had an EV for similar money, for the regular commute, and could have hired something nice for the long, if they are afraid of not being able to recharge, journey and still saved.

Personally I'd love an EV but living in a MUD with unassigned parking I don't see it being possible for a good few years.

NIMAN

fyi

there is a discussion on the future of EV cars on the Sean O'Rourke show on Radio 1 at 10am.

12Phase

The issue is definitely range.

In a country like Ireland a huge % of the population actually do need to be able to drive long distances.

Why would someone spend a pretty major capital outlay on a vehicle that can't actually drive even medium distances?

The settlement pattern here is very scattered and people drive much more than most countries.

With a 300km+ range and readily available rapid charging, EV becomes a viable solution.
The fact that Tesla is being developed with the North America market in mind is no bad thing.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

The biggest issue is they are worse than ICE.

Worse than ICE is purely a personal position for you. Its not true for everyone. EV's have a ways to go for mass market adoption which is where you are coming from but the general comment that they are worse is not true.

Deleted User wrote: »

You buy a petrol chainsaw because you don't have a choice, the same with the lawnmower that needs to cut lots of grass.Not because batteries are crap.

I have a site that is more than an acre in size with about 3/4 acre of actual grass and I have an electric robotic lawnmower. Its cheaper than any decent ride-on to buy and its SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper to run not to mind the time I save each week from having to cut the grass. Its similar battery tech to drills, EV's etc.

I have an electric strimmer and they also provide electric chainsaws (not sure how useful that would be for a professional though).

thierry14 wrote: »

People buy the petrols because the electric cost/would cost a fortune for an inferior product.

Take your leaf, it's slow, no range, takes ages to charge and driving over 120kmh kills the battery in less than an hour, it's a poor product imo for the price.

Why do you say that "electric cost/would cost a fortune". What is that based on? Clearly if the EV is within your driving range and you charge at night you will save alot on diesel relative to electricity. I dont get where this "fortune" is coming from? An EV isnt more expensive to buy than an equivalent diesel.

The Leaf isnt slow unless you routinely want to break the speed limit! It has a low top speed relative to ICE but so what. How often do you drive over 140km/h anyway.

I accept your other points about range and slow charging but these have to be taken into context of the purchaser rather than a general comment. If its a 2nd car and your daily drive is within the range of one charge the car is perfect and is not inferior in any way. Alot of superior things actually.

I guess its down to what you feel you want from the car and clearly EV doesnt do it for you, or most people, right now. Some of that is misunderstanding though.

Padraig Mor

KCross wrote: »

Why do you say that "electric cost/would cost a fortune". What is that based on? Clearly if the EV is within your driving range and you charge at night you will save alot on diesel relative to electricity. I dont get where this "fortune" is coming from? An EV isnt more expensive to buy than an equivalent diesel.

The Leaf isnt slow unless you routinely want to break the speed limit! It has a low top speed relative to ICE but so what. How often do you drive over 140km/h anyway.

I accept your other points about range and slow charging but these have to be taken into context of the purchaser rather than a general comment. If its a 2nd car and your daily drive is within the range of one charge the car is perfect and is not inferior in any way. Alot of superior things actually.

Ignore him - he's a troll. I've comprehensively debunked most of his BS before, and he's back peddling the same half truths and untruths.

Water John

I just threw in the robotic lawn mower as an example of where an electric is already ahead of ICE.
K indicates the reasons why. It is really a no brainer.
Yet some come on ridiculing that too. That discredits any negative views they have on EVs.
I accept certain present limits on EVs. For any family with two cars though it is very suitable.
With battery tech it Evs will be ahead of ICEs in a short time.
For some however, they will stick to ICE but they will be a small minority.
Most people will be open minded.

12Phase

I think though the likes of the Prius have opened the door to serious EV adoption and Tesla has pushed it further.

One of the curses of the EV market has been the earlier and some of the current cars that looked too much like the stereotypical Milk Float.

Done right, EV is vastly superior. I mean you don't run your washing machine on a set of diesel engines for a very good reason - electricity gives you huge power, maybe torque and very serious controllability in a small, relatively silent package called an electric motor.

It's also why most of the world's trains moved to being EVs. The acceleration and energy efficiency gains were enormous.

Diesel and petrol engines don't really suit continuous start stop and variable speed operation.

All that's been holding EVs back is range and charge speed. The drive technology is well established and vastly superior to anything a combustion engine can do.

NIMAN

12Phase wrote: »

The issue is definitely range.

In a country like Ireland a huge % of the population actually do need to be able to drive long distances.

Why would someone spend a pretty major capital outlay on a vehicle that can't actually drive even medium distances?

The settlement pattern here is very scattered and people drive much more than most countries.

With a 300km+ range and readily available rapid charging, EV becomes a viable solution.
The fact that Tesla is being developed with the North America market in mind is no bad thing.

Is this fact though?
I read a figure that the Nissan LEaf would suit the daily lives of 80% of the European population as the average daily commute was 50km or something.

So is Ireland an exemption to this figure? Do we commute much further than the rest of Europe? I would doubt it.

Water John

Agree with you Phase, making EVs that looked geeky has not helped. They need to look like 'normal' cars.
I'm sure a lovely audio can be added to the EV for those who love the engine roar. Except of course, the response and acceleration in the EV will vastly superior to their old ICE.

12Phase

NIMAN wrote: »

Is this fact though?
I read a figure that the Nissan LEaf would suit the daily lives of 80% of the European population as the average daily commute was 50km or something.

So is Ireland an exemption to this figure? Do we commute much further than the rest of Europe? I would doubt it.

Yes it's a fact. I don't have the stats to hand but Irish people drive more km per head per year than almost any developed country due to very low levels of urbanisation.

We are genuinely way out of line with almost any other developed nation when it comes to that, and especially continental Europe's better planned denser areas.

EV like Tesla with longer ranges are needed here for it to really take off.

BoatMad

12Phase wrote: »

Yes it's a fact. I don't have the stats to hand but Irish people drive more km per head per year than almost any developed country due to very low levels of urbanisation.

We are genuinely way out of line with almost any other developed nation when it comes to that, and especially continental Europe's better planned denser areas.

EV like Tesla with longer ranges are needed here for it to really take off.

We have annualised miles per head of population greater then the Americans

BoatMad

Range in itself in my view is not the issue. If you have access to a comprehensive charging infrastructure with go availability , then range isn't the issue its perceived

Remember it's range anxiety , which is as much an issue of charging as it is range

I predict the future will see a variety of battery options

Someone on a city wants a small car with say a 30kw battery , I can drive my leaf round the centre of Dublin all day and not need to recharge

People doing regular longer runs , sales reps etc will need longer duration batteries and access to high powered recharging centres.

It will be a " range " of options , not just more range per se