Will electric car sales accelerate?

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Electrics are an improvement. Drive one. Seriously. I drove diesels for the best part of 350,000 miles and probably a lot more and I loved them but times change and technology. I wouldn't go back.

34,300 kms since the middle of January 2015 and I can still say I won't go back to diesel as my main car, yes we have a diesel that's my partners car for the 1% of trips a year we need it. The Leaf is doing by far the most mileage.

Your right mad lad, they will be an improvement, massively, that torque/power/simplicity/reliability/drivability will be uncomparbale.

In 10 - 20 years I will buy one when the improvements arr there, but I don't like how someone of ye act like they are great already, far from it.

You don't need 800 kms range , not in Ireland, get over it. Or drive diesel who cares ? your choice........for now !

thierry14

Ok EV's are great

jimmycrackcorm

steelboots wrote:

A leaf is about the same price as an equivalent ICE, and much cheaper to run (fuel & servicing). Practically maintenance free. No expensive items such as DPF Filter, Turbos, Cat, timing belt etc....

If the leaf looked like a Tesla it might sell more than the golf in this country...

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

Your right mad lad, they will be an improvement, massively, that torque/power/simplicity/reliability/drivability will be uncomparbale.

In 10 - 20 years I will buy one when the improvements arr there, but I don't like how someone of ye act like they are great already, far from it.

But no one cares what you buy, I have a choice to buy EV and I am happy with my choice 1 year 4 months and 33,300 kms later. If you're happy in a diesel then that's great. No one is asking you to buy an EV.

The leaf is a great car, it gets me to work and back and more , 30,000 kms a year, no maintenance, and ultra cheap to fuel, very smooth and quiet on the road, I love the EV drive.

No diesel can offer anything like this for me, I don't need 700-800 kms range because I don't drive this distance in a day, My home is my fuel station.

thierry14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But no one cares what you buy, I have a choice to buy EV and I am happy with my choice 1 year 4 months and 33,300 kms later. If you're happy in a diesel then that's great. No one is asking you to buy an EV.

The leaf is a great car, it gets me to work and back and more , 30,000 kms a year, no maintenance, and ultra cheap to fuel, very smooth and quiet on the road, I love the EV drive.

No diesel can offer anything like this for me, I don't need 700-800 kms range because I don't drive this distance in a day, My home is my fuel station.

Why are you saying no one asked me to buy an EV?

I said find me a comparable!

Which you didn't because they don't exist.You prefer to blabber on as usual.

Suprised you haven't mentioned your work charger yet 😀😀

Would you buy a leaf if it cost the same to run as a diesel?

As we all know costs of running an ICE have been made artificially high by our government.

Your leaf is maintenance free because it's under warranty, lets see in 10 - 15 years

12Phase

BoatMad wrote: »

I trouble you to do your own ROI on solar DHW in Ireland

the payback , approaches 20 years in reality , despite ridiculous claims being made that it was 7-10

even at 10 years , its a joke, taking into account the opportunity cost of the capital

It makes no sense economically and its why the solar DHW industry has nearly collapsed in Ireland

PV panels will be a far better approach as electricity is more useful then 100 litres of hot water, but right now PVs are too dear.


given I have no use for large volumes stored hot water , I cant use the point of "high efficiency " DHW systems. ALL modern appliances are now cold fill and showers are not major consumers of water volume


efficiency is a function of cost , efficiency calculations in the absence of TCO and ROI calculations are just a way of wasting money

Everything doesn't come down to return on investment for the consumer though. The advantage of taking heating loads off the network are about CO2 production and network load.

As I was saying, if you've a huge national peak time load of electric showers online every morning, you cause a massive spike in demand. That means that all of the least efficient power stations including things like distilate powered gas turbines (burning what amounts to kerosine, like aviation fuel) come on line to meet instantaneous demand.

Ireland is facing into enormous fines for what will be an inevitable failure to meet our agreed emissions targets.

We had a significant improvement in our state of play for CO2 over the last few years almost none of which could be attributed to energy policy. The econony tanked, reducing demand and the very energy heavy construction sector practically stopped entirely. Absolutely nothing has changed in terms of housing driving serious efficiency.

As our economic activity and construction activity increases again, and as population rises, we've a big energy issue ahead both in terms of being able to meet peak demand and in terms of fines.

Heating by burning gas closer to where the heat is needed is massively more efficient in terms of actual fossil fuel usage than burning in a power station to drive turbines and heat steam to drive more turbines. Even the most efficient combined cycle system does not deliver anything like the energy of the gas being burnt by the time it gets to your shower.

Solar, while expensive, is totally carbon neutral over its lifetime (other than manufacturing costs).

If you want to look at it totally from the consumers bills point of view we might as well just give up as most energy efficient devices , including EVs make very little sense from that point of view and we might as well just go with the US right wing Drill Baby Drill and Burn Baby Burn! Policies.

Mostly this is bigger picture stuff.

If we want to tackle climate change and avoid totally running out of oil for plastic and other very useful materials we have to reduce the rate we are burning it.

Using the most appropriate and CO2 neutral types of energy is important.

Electricity is FAR better utilised for things like driving motors, powering electronics and so on than heating water and air.

The only time it makes any sense is when a network has large amounts of renewables, particularly hydro, or nuclear. And we all know the downside of nuclear, which is probably a political non starter here in Ireland.

Anyway, I know it's a bit of a long post but I really think Ireland has a very serious lack of any kind of energy policy. We are totally focused on short term, local issues like ROI on heaters and freaking over scientifically unproven links between EM from medium voltage lines and every ailment.

heating any home is a waste of energy, we failed big time to have decent amounts of insulation in buildings. All throughout the boom bad building regulations didn't help, just build them and build them fast is all they were interested in. A bit of aerobord in the cavity and 8 inches of insulation in the attic isn't a well insulated house in my book.

There is also no reason we can't have a solar PV array on every roof in Ireland. A 5-6 Kwp on every domestic roof in Ireland would have a major impact and can go a long way to cleaning up the grid.

It's all too easy to burn fossil fuels this is the problem.

The only real way to reduce emissions without having every acre of Ireland turned into a gigantic wind farm is to have Nuclear power. The more transport is electrified our electricity demand will skyrocket, if we had Nuclear we could even electrify a lot more of our rail network.

Nuclear power = clean and unlimited and also the power to meet future demands, more and more environmentalists are not as opposed to Nuclear power as they were.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

So if EV's are so great and comparable with ICE

Name one that is equivalent to a 30k Seat Leon FR 184bhp TDI?

I'm talking same power,same range, same refuel speed, same price.

They don't ****in exist do they Paddy?

I believe you are looking at this the wrong way. Trying to compare them is like saying show me an apple that tastes like an orange. They will never be equivalent.

Even with the range advancements on the way for EV, all you have to do is throw a bigger tank on a diesel and you will be back here saying that the new gen EV's cant compare to the new ICE which can now do 1500km without stopping!

The bhp comparison is also a bull**** comparison. The max bhp figures that are quoted are at particular revs so you dont have that power all the time unlike the power from an EV.

Looking at Seat Leon that 184bhp is at 3500-4000rpm... best of luck driving that car at those revs everyday.... it wont see the end of the warranty not to mind the fuel economoy you'll get at that rev!

You should compare driving experience, not BHP.

If you're looking to break land speed records then an EV isnt for you but the LEAF isnt a slow car below 100km/h. Have you driven an EV for a few days?


refuel speed... yea, thats a pain. However, not an issue for 99% of journeys. If you travel outside the range of todys EV's on a daily basis then its not for you... on the road salemen etc... nobody is arguing that point. EV's today are really only suitable if its range is more than your full daily needs. If you need an occasional long journey then you just factor in a 30min charge to it. Not that big a deal a few times a year. Relax, enjoy the coffee!

On price.... the dearest LEAF is 28k. The FR starts at 30k and doesnt have leather, sat nav etc and a host of other extras that the LEAF has.... but again its not an apples to apples comparison so its a worthless exercise comparing them.

thierry14

KCross wrote: »

I believe you are looking at this the wrong way. Trying to compare them is like saying show me an apple that tastes like an orange. They will never be equivalent.

Even with the range advancements on the way for EV, all you have to do is throw a bigger tank on a diesel and you will be back here saying that the new gen EV's cant compare to the new ICE which can now do 1500km without stopping!

The bhp comparison is also a bull**** comparison. The max bhp figures that are quoted are at particular revs so you dont have that power all the time unlike the power from an EV.

Looking at Seat Leon that 184bhp is at 3500-4000rpm... best of luck driving that car at those revs everyday.... it wont see the end of the warranty not to mind the fuel economoy you'll get at that rev!

You should compare driving experience, not BHP.

If you're looking to break land speed records then an EV isnt for you but the LEAF isnt a slow car below 100km/h. Have you driven an EV for a few days?


refuel speed... yea, thats a pain. However, not an issue for 99% of journeys. If you travel outside the range of todys EV's on a daily basis then its not for you... on the road salemen etc... nobody is arguing that point. EV's today are really only suitable if its range is more than your full daily needs. If you need an occasional long journey then you just factor in a 30min charge to it. Not that big a deal a few times a year. Relax, enjoy the coffee!

On price.... the dearest LEAF is 28k. The FR starts at 30k and doesnt have leather, sat nav etc and a host of other extras that the LEAF has.... but again its not an apples to apples comparison so its a worthless exercise comparing them.

Lot of talking for a very simple answer.

Out of that criteria the comparable EV you chose ( Leaf ) is cheaper at 28 vs 30k that's all I got.

1 out of 4

Next

thierry14

thierry14 wrote: »

Would you buy a leaf if it cost the same to run as a diesel?

Absolutely without doubt, the electric drive is vastly superior, and the preheating would be very hard to let go of now.

thierry14 wrote: »

Your leaf is maintenance free because it's under warranty, lets see in 10 - 15 years

It costs 5,500 for a brand new Leaf 24 Kwh battery today and in 5 years the cost will probably half, worst someone might need a new battery. If I need a new motor or electrics there will be plenty used to buy and reconditioned but it's unlikely the motor will fail, but of course anything is possible, I won't be keeping the leaf anyway past January 2018.

There was no need to mention the work charger , it's a great perk to have , 30,000 kms a year for about 200 Euro's including public charging, why the hell would I want a diesel ? Even if I hadn't work charging it would probably cost me about 500 Euro's a year. There is no benefit to me having a Diesel. If someone finds driving a diesel a benefit then absolutely, go ahead and keep it I couldn't care less.

Water John

Nice article in today's Irish Examiner. Even supercars are going electric. Sorry Theirry, your a luddite.

To go carbon neutral for this country, means increasing electricity production X 4. Producing all of it from renewables and nuclear(Thorium).

Ev's will form a key part of the infrastructure, storing energy.

thierry14

Water John wrote: »

Nice article in today's Irish Examiner. Even supercars are going electric. Sorry Theirry, your a luddite.

To go carbon neutral for this country, means increasing electricity production X 4. Producing all of it from renewables and nuclear(Thorium).

Ev's will form a key part of the infrastructure, storing energy.

I didn't say they weren't the future

I wouldn't be rushing out to buy one tomorrow

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

Lot of talking for a very simple answer.

Out of that criteria the comparable EV you chose ( Leaf ) is cheaper at 28 vs 30k that's all I got.

1 out of 4

Next

3 out of 4 for the LEAF. You have me on range!

Your lack of coherent rebuttal tells me you are not to be reasoned with. You just go with general statements and misinformation.

The whole argument for EV isn't black or white. It's down to personal circumstances and it's just not for you. Fair enough, it doesn't make everyone else wrong though.

Actually the Leaf top spec SVE (24 kwh) is 26,390 Euro's , when I got the Leaf it cost 28,000 ! O well.

Padraig Mor

thierry14 wrote: »

So if EV's are so great and comparable with ICE

Name one that is equivalent to a 30k Seat Leon FR 184bhp TDI?

I'm talking same power,same range, same refuel speed, same price.

They don't ****in exist do they Paddy?

More laughable BS from you. No one here has ever claimed that EVs have the same range or refuelling speed as ICE cars. What people point out is that - for a majority of people - the range is perfectly fine 99% of the time, and the refuel time is immaterial as it's done overnight / at work.

So let's look at your Leon FR compared to a Leaf SV with cold pack (mid spec Leaf - I have this). Leaf is €24300. Closest Leon FR is €31000 (Leon FR with winter pack, camera, alarm, nav) - fully €6700 more! And at this, STILL doesn't have keyless entry (an expensive option on most brands) and is a flipping manual! (Not to mind it only has three doors - rather inconvenient for those of us with families). Adding conservative pricing for these options (if they were available), you would be looking at the Leon costing in the region of €10,000 more for a comparable spec!

Power - the Leaf has less, but it's got it where it counts, and can in no way be considered 'slow' unless you're constantly hammering the motorway at 140km/h+. Speculating somewhat here, but I'd be confident that the Leaf is at least as fast (if not faster) from 10 - 80 km/h - the most useful 'power band' for most motorists. (I think we've previously established that you've never owned an actual powerful car, unlike myself and others on this forum who have testified to the Leaf's V6-like acceleration).

And that's before we get to running costs! The Leaf's will be, let's face it, hugely less than the Leon's (and that's if the Leon's DPF or DMF don't go boom).

So here's your comparison: for the average driver the Leaf's range will suffice the vast majority of the time, will save about €10,000 in purchase costs, and thousands more in running costs, and be just as fast when it counts (and importantly, won't afflict the owner with the attitude of those who drive FRs, Octavia vRS, etc - who have convinced themselves that they're driving some sort of amazing, powerful machine, when in fact they're driving a boring identikit VW with a noisy 4 cylinder diesel because they can't afford a BMW or Audi).

I know which I'd pick!

Oh but the range !

thierry14

Padraig Mor wrote: »

More laughable BS from you. No one here has ever claimed that EVs have the same range or refuelling speed as ICE cars. What people point out is that - for a majority of people - the range is perfectly fine 99% of the time, and the refuel time is immaterial as it's done overnight / at work.

So let's look at your Leon FR compared to a Leaf SV with cold pack (mid spec Leaf - I have this). Leaf is €24300. Closest Leon FR is €31000 (Leon FR with winter pack, camera, alarm, nav) - fully €6700 more! And at this, STILL doesn't have keyless entry (an expensive option on most brands) and is a flipping manual! (Not to mind it only has three doors - rather inconvenient for those of us with families). Adding conservative pricing for these options (if they were available), you would be looking at the Leon costing in the region of €10,000 more for a comparable spec!

Power - the Leaf has less, but it's got it where it counts, and can in no way be considered 'slow' unless you're constantly hammering the motorway at 140km/h+. Speculating somewhat here, but I'd be confident that the Leaf is at least as fast (if not faster) from 10 - 80 km/h - the most useful 'power band' for most motorists. (I think we've previously established that you've never owned an actual powerful car, unlike myself and others on this forum who have testified to the Leaf's V6-like acceleration).

And that's before we get to running costs! The Leaf's will be, let's face it, hugely less than the Leon's (and that's if the Leon's DPF or DMF don't go boom).

So here's your comparison: for the average driver the Leaf's range will suffice the vast majority of the time, will save about €10,000 in purchase costs, and thousands more in running costs, and be just as fast when it counts (and importantly, won't afflict the owner with the attitude of those who drive FRs, Octavia vRS, etc - who have convinced themselves that they're driving some sort of amazing, powerful machine, when in fact they're driving a boring identikit VW with a noisy 4 cylinder diesel because they can't afford a BMW or Audi).

I know which I'd pick!

All that talking **** and you can't answer a simple question!

Your the idiot Paddy.

Power,range,refuel speed, price

How many does the Leaf better the diesel Seat?

Leaf isn't faster 10kmh - 80kmh

Are you ****ing stupid?

It's got 100bhp and weights the same as the Seat with 184bhp

Torque don't mean ****

Show me figures please for this magic speed of the leaf?

Genuinely interested

thierry14

Much faster i3 vs Seat Leon tdi

http://www.zeperfs.com/en/duel5481-4603.htm

Leon is quicker 40kmh - 140kmh, 80kmh - 120kmh

Same 0-100

Suck on that paddy.

12Phase

Looking at the European average requirements for range is also highly misleading.

Ireland is way, way our of line on this due to settlement patterns.

KCross

thierry14 wrote: »

All that talking **** and you can't answer a simple question!

Your the idiot Paddy.

Power,range,refuel speed, price

How many does the Leaf better the diesel Seat?

Leaf isn't faster 10kmh - 80kmh

Are you ****ing stupid?

It's got 100bhp and weights the same as the Seat with 184bhp

Torque don't mean ****

Show me figures please for this magic speed of the leaf?

Genuinely interested

Ok diesel's are great

Comparing EV power V ICE power is manginess the EV will always feel faster and a lot more satisfying to drive for the same amount of KW available.

When I get back into the Kia Cee'd which has 115 Hp I nearly want to cry it feels so frustratingly sluggish and I have to be careful over taking and realise that power takes half the day to actually come in as it feels coming from an EV.

Most manual 0-60 times come from professional drivers anyway.

I guarantee few drivers will manage to change 6 gears in the 0.4 seconds the Leon claims a faster 0-60 or the 0.2 seconds for the rest of the quoted figures. Most people couldn't press and depress the clutch in 0.4 seconds never mind then changing a gear.

The Leon also has 150 Nm more torque than the i3 so the 0.4 seconds and 0.2 seconds the Leon is quoted as been faster isn't actually good considering.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

Ok diesel's are great

Yeah great at killing DMF's

12Phase

At the end of the day, the typical motorist isn't an idiot and they're not making decision based on nothing.

EVs are getting there, but they are not there yet and they will reach mass market *when* the downsides are addressed.

There is a problem with range. If you whack on the heating or the air con in an EV that range goes down noticeably and also depending on your driving style it can be impacted quite a bit.

Tesla type battery tech is needed for EVs to go to mass adoption and we will need more rapid chargers.

KCross

12Phase wrote: »

At the end of the day, the typical motorist isn't an idiot and they're not making decision based on nothing.

EVs are getting there, but they are not there yet and they will reach mass market *when* the downsides are addressed.

There is a problem with range. If you whack on the heating or the air con in an EV that range goes down noticeably and also depending on your driving style it can be impacted quite a bit.

Tesla type battery tech is needed for EVs to go to mass adoption and we will need more rapid chargers.

I didnt think Tesla had any different battery tech. They just put more battery into their cars. Am I wrong?

12Phase

KCross wrote: »

I didnt think Tesla had any different battery tech. They just put more battery into their cars. Am I wrong?

Well, they're lithium ion batteries but they've a lot of tech around how they're packaged, assembled, cooled, controlled, charged and so on.

BoatMad

Let me make this projection for the Petrol heads.

Over the next 3-6 years they will become increasing pissed off at being left standing at the lights by boy racer EVs

That alone will have them opening their wallets.

Any electric motors vastly vastly outperforms ice

Torque is EVERYING in acceleration and the torque curve of a petrol is fairly awful.

Range will be solved soon , boy racers can't aford to drive very far anyway.

The future will be fast and furious and it will be all electric

12Phase

Considering how long your average Irish driver takes to recognise and move off when a light goes green, I don't think torque will make much difference

Oh the light's green. Hang on there now while I change the radio station, put the car into first, take off the handbrake..

0-60 in 10 minutes would be an improvement for many drivers here.

BoatMad

12Phase wrote: »

Well, they're lithium ion batteries but they've a lot of tech around how they're packaged, assembled, cooled, controlled, charged and so on.

Not really. There is an engineering argument that tesla are over engineering their batteries.

At the end of the day they are just Li and in bigger numbers then others.

12Phase

12Phase wrote: »

At the end of the day, the typical motorist isn't an idiot and they're not making decision based on nothing.

EVs are getting there, but they are not there yet and they will reach mass market *when* the downsides are addressed.

There is a problem with range. If you whack on the heating or the air con in an EV that range goes down noticeably and also depending on your driving style it can be impacted quite a bit.

Tesla type battery tech is needed for EVs to go to mass adoption and we will need more rapid chargers.

In the Leaf with the heat pump ( SVE and SV trims) the heating makes little difference to range once the car is preheated from the mains and a temp from 5 deg C and above, below 5 deg C efficiency drops a little and below 0 it does consume more energy but most of the time it's pretty efficient.

peposhi

thierry14 wrote: »

All that talking **** and you can't answer a simple question!

Your the idiot Paddy.

Power,range,refuel speed, price

How many does the Leaf better the diesel Seat?

Leaf isn't faster 10kmh - 80kmh

Are you ****ing stupid?

It's got 100bhp and weights the same as the Seat with 184bhp

Torque don't mean ****

Show me figures please for this magic speed of the leaf?

Genuinely interested

h

:cool:

It looks like the only way to convince you of the real power and usefulness of an EV is to sit you in one of our standard SV/SVEs and let you go for a spin around. I bet you your beloved highly priced diesel Seat would feel so outdated.

12Phase

BoatMad wrote: »

Not really. There is an engineering argument that tesla are over engineering their batteries.

At the end of the day they are just Li and in bigger numbers then others.

Still though they are actually doing it what a lot of companies haven't yet.

Most car companies do not want to sell an ev at this time because they have to buy the batteries, they make engines in house. Even though they can afford to they are there to maximise profits and electrics will make them loose some money, nothing they can;t afford of course but it's a loss all the same.

It's funny though what VW did and it backfired and all this money could have gone to building electric cars and installing chargers.

ectoraige

Balmed Out wrote: »

A big factor is the lack of choice of electric vehicles. I wanted to buy but didn't as my wife wanted a bigger boot basically.

I wonder would EVs do well in the MPV market? A lot of short trips, with long trips rarely being spontaneous. Resale value is already anticipated to be low as the kids thrash the cars as they are growing up, so concerns about battery/charger tech mightn't be as high.

oinkely

ectoraige wrote: »

I wonder would EVs do well in the MPV market? A lot of short trips, with long trips rarely being spontaneous. Resale value is already anticipated to be low as the kids thrash the cars as they are growing up, so concerns about battery/charger tech mightn't be as high.

I would love to see an affordable 7 seater with similar range/charging to the 24KW leaf. With 3 kids the 5 seater leaf is a bit of a compromise. At the moment the only 7 seater option is the model X, which isn't really an option ;-)

12Phase

Actually in an MPV you could also hold a lot more batteries too due to the size of the vehicle. Saloon cars are very restricted in terms of space.

I've a feeling that EVs might actually need to move towards more mid size cars and away from the continental European focus on super mini formats.

stesaurus

oinkely wrote: »

I would love to see an affordable 7 seater with similar range/charging to the 24KW leaf. With 3 kids the 5 seater leaf is a bit of a compromise. At the moment the only 7 seater option is the model X, which isn't really an option ;-)

The Nissan e-NV200 has an MPV option for up to 7 people I think. Haven't seen any here though. Only the commercial version

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Most car companies do not want to sell an ev at this time because they have to buy the batteries, they make engines in house. Even though they can afford to they are there to maximise profits and electrics will make them loose some money, nothing they can;t afford of course but it's a loss all the same.

It's funny though what VW did and it backfired and all this money could have gone to building electric cars and installing chargers.

actually as someone who has designed robotic engine assembly systems, this is not the case, most auto engines today are cross licensed and often built between several car companies to minimise the development and production costs. ( there are a few exceptions , mostly at the high end )

more then 75 percent of the engine is outsourced components

The main reason you are not seeing lots of EVs choice, is two fold , (a) the lag time it takes a car company to gear up for a new model , 10 years is not uncommon , 5 years is very fast

and (b) the market is still underdeveloped and there isn't room for a variety of models and competitive production run levels