Go-Ahead Win 10% of Dublin Bus routes for tender

LXFlyer

tabbey wrote: »

Go-Ahead are getting the joke routes.

What we need is a system where the new operator can interact with the travelling public and workforce to tailor the services to the needs of the people, and potentially make a profit if they get the service right.

The franchise given now is too restrictive, completely disallowing any initiative. It is completely under the dead hand control of the NTA, a quango of faceless bureacrats, answereable to nobody.

I don't see the 17, 17a, 18, 33a, 45a, 75, 76, 175 etc as "joke routes". They all carry large numbers of passengers.

There are some community routes parcelled in with them but the bundle of routes are far from being irrelevant.

You are correct that the onus is now on the NTA to deliver on this - that's where I do have some reservations based on recent dealings with them.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

I don't think any of the pro-tender people care about that. As long as it wasn't given to DB, that's all that matters. And looking at GoAhead being the only other company to bother to keep their bid, that looks likely the case.

Until the set fee is not enough for them.

If that is the case the anti-tender people can come back on this forum and say we told you so and the whole exercise was a failure and you have absolutely nothing to be worried about because this whole exercise is going to prove your point seeing as you are so confident?

This tender is pretty spread out and honestly it does make it less attractive to companies to start operating because building a depot for such a spread of routes is not going to be easy at all to make them efficient, it will require a bit of upfront costs which no doubt played a part in some of the operators dropping out and some of the operators involved in the bidding would not be in the best financial period of their history and obviously decided it was a risk too far.

It would however suggest that Go Ahead could go cheaper than they offered but they obviously factored in the cost of depot construction into their bid, which they would not have to do next time around for the same routes etc as it would already have been built, but if they were still cheaper than Dublin Bus even with costing a depot into it, that suggests that DB costs are quite a bit higher as this is one cost they didn't have that every other operator did.

It's a bit different to the UK when there were many depots already in existence and sectors of the National Bus Company were sold off including depots, here everything needs to be started from scratch.

NuMarvel

Has it been decided how these buses will be branded?

I imagine the NTA will want a consistent brand through the city, but will that be a new brand, or will the Dublin Bus brand be used, with the DB company being renamed (ala ESB becoming Electric Ireland).

Or will Go-Ahead be using their own branding and livery?

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

How has that helped to date? We are already seeing services creep into the greater Dublin area with a plethora of branding and fare structures that are completely inconsistent. We are also seeing operators allowed to undermine flagship NTA projects such as Leap Card by being permitted operate without the requirement to accept this method of payment (Aircoach, Glendalough Bus). Bus stops continue to be operator specific creating street clutter that will get worse with this tender. At least Dublin Bus has reliable wifi, smart ticketing and consistent in-trip experience. I can't say that about anyone else.

The NTA are already in the process of rolling out single multi-operator bus stops. They've started in Cork and this will progress throughout the country, but given the sheer number of stops that's going to take time given budgetary and physical constraints.

devnull

LXFlyer wrote: »

You are correct that the onus is now on the NTA to deliver on this - that's where I do have some reservations based on recent dealings with them.

Indeed and the proof is in the pudding.

The NTA are going to live and die by this, if they properly implement something along the lines of TFL as they plan and deliver a proper integrated system it really will improve transport, but if they make errors it could turn into a mess as well and be a disaster, I'm hopeful it will go well and it really could be of benefit to public transport in this country, but it doesn't mean it will.

It will require hard work and co-operation from all stakeholders, both in the NTA and the operators, be that public or private, for this to work, I have reservations on how well Dublin Bus and the new operator might integrate together and that is a particular challenge the NTA will face - however it's not solely down to the NTA, it's down to everyone to make it work and pull in the right direction.

devnull

NuMarvel wrote: »

Has it been decided how these buses will be branded?

I imagine the NTA will want a consistent brand through the city, but will that be a new brand, or will the Dublin Bus brand be used, with the DB company being renamed (ala ESB becoming Electric Ireland).

Or will Go-Ahead be using their own branding and livery?

Everything will be integrated, the end idea is that it will be like London where the overall system is king rather than the operators being king like they are now, so all PSO bus services are the same livery, what that livery is and exactly how it will be branded hasn't been decided yet.

LXFlyer

goingnowhere wrote: »

Good news...

These routes were the worst of the worst, dodgy scheduling, infrequent service, random buses missing etc.

Gave up on the 17 years ago in favour of a bike...

On time, reliable service, delivered with clean buses, working route information, centre doors, staff in uniform etc, no more of this "out of service" rubbish

The 17 gets stuck in some of the worst traffic blackspots across South Dublin which vary in congestion levels from one day to the next.

Short of sprouting wings no operator is going to be able to change that aspect. The timetable does need a recast however (similar to the recent 75 changes), to standardise frequency and improve running times where necessary.

That got put on the long finger by the NTA due to funding constraints.

_Kaiser_

devnull wrote: »

Indeed but sympathy strikes are not common and we are talking about an IF here, obviously however the more operators you have the less chance of everyone going out so if more routes do go out to tender it would be beneficial if a third operator etc got involved, I have friends who live in England and it's very rare that one operator goes out on strike and another does too.

I'm thinking if a strike is called in DB supported by members of ABC union, then other members of ABC in GA may decide unofficially to go out as well in support, thus affecting the services of GA , especially if non-union members refuse to pass pickets of their colleagues.

We saw it recently with IE union members striking in support of BE members remember.

Voipjunkie

devnull wrote: »

If that is the case the anti-tender people can come back on this forum and say we told you so and the whole exercise was a failure and you have absolutely nothing to be worried about because this whole exercise is going to prove your point seeing as you are so confident?

This tender is pretty spread out and honestly it does make it less attractive to companies to start operating because building a depot for such a spread of routes is not going to be easy at all to make them efficient, it will require a bit of upfront costs which no doubt played a part in some of the operators dropping out and some of the operators involved in the bidding would not be in the best financial period of their history and obviously decided it was a risk too far.

It would however suggest that Go Ahead could go cheaper than they offered but they obviously factored in the cost of depot construction into their bid, which they would not have to do next time around for the same routes etc as it would already have been built, but if they were still cheaper than Dublin Bus even with costing a depot into it, that suggests that DB costs are quite a bit higher as this is one cost they didn't have that every other operator did.

It's a bit different to the UK when there were many depots already in existence and sectors of the National Bus Company were sold off including depots, here everything needs to be started from scratch.

Trade unions missed a trick here, by ensuring that DB employees would not move with their routes they allowed the new entrant to base their wages on a new entrant level rather than existing employee wage levels as they would have done under TUPE, this would significantly reduce the cost of the contract for the first number of years alone.

The second point is that there is going to be significant out of service running costs no matter where this new depot (if it is a single depot) is built. The 10% includes routes in Balbriggan to Bray

_Kaiser_

NuMarvel wrote: »

Has it been decided how these buses will be branded?

I imagine the NTA will want a consistent brand through the city, but will that be a new brand, or will the Dublin Bus brand be used, with the DB company being renamed (ala ESB becoming Electric Ireland).

Or will Go-Ahead be using their own branding and livery?

I'd think it'd be a bit like London, no? Standard colour scheme with different but smaller operator logos on the sides/front

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm thinking if a strike is called in DB supported by members of ABC union, then other members of ABC in GA may decide unofficially to go out as well in support, thus affecting the services of GA , especially if non-union members refuse to pass pickets of their colleagues.

We saw it recently with IE union members striking in support of BE members remember.

We did for a brief period, but the threat of legal action stopped that from happening again.

seamus

devnull wrote: »

It would however suggest that Go Ahead could go cheaper than they offered but they obviously factored in the cost of depot construction into their bid, which they would not have to do next time around for the same routes etc as it would already have been built, but if they were still cheaper than Dublin Bus even with costing a depot into it, that suggests that DB costs are quite a bit higher as this is one cost they didn't have that every other operator did.

I wonder if there isn't a substantial property investment aspect to what they do as a company, and they see the building of depots as a worthwhile long-term investment even without the bus routes?

Even if GA were to lose the tender again in 5/7 years there's a good chance another operator will need a depot. And if not, one can always build houses.

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'd think it'd be a bit like London, no? Standard colour scheme with different but smaller operator logos on the sides/front

That's exactly what the plan is - but the livery itself has yet to be decided upon.

devnull

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm thinking if a strike is called in DB supported by members of ABC union, then other members of ABC in GA may decide unofficially to go out as well in support, thus affecting the services of GA , especially if non-union members refuse to pass pickets of their colleagues.

Generally when I've seen bus strikes happen in the UK it's very very rare that two companies go on strike at once out of sympathy, even when they share the same union, for example the recent Tower Transit strike in London did not result in other operators going out on industrial action.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare in London and London would be the kind of operation that the NTA appear to be trying to model Dublin on to some extent.

We saw it recently with IE union members striking in support of BE members remember.

BE and IE are related though in that they are branches of CIE at the end of the day, this is not something that will be the case with Dublin Bus and the Go Ahead operated routes + see above.

Voipjunkie

seamus wrote: »

I wonder if there isn't a substantial property investment aspect to what they do as a company, and they see the building of depots as a worthwhile long-term investment even without the bus routes?

Even if GA were to lose the tender again in 5/7 years there's a good chance another operator will need a depot. And if not, one can always build houses.

AFAIR at the time the talk was that the NTA would build the depot and it would be provided to the operator in the same way as the buses, they don't own them when the contract is up everything still belongs to the NTA. Much the same at the Luas depots don't belong to Transdev.

StreetLight

LXFlyer wrote: »

I meant the route network that they operated.

I seriously doubt they wanted to lose any routes. That was my point.

But they now have a challenge to deliver real improvements in service levels on the routes that they retain.

Point taken.

But I really do suspect that DB management will be glad to quietly capitalise on this event to streamline their operation without the hassle of having to deal with cutting pay or cutting staff.

Time and again, a significant amount of departures are not operated due to a continual shortage of drivers. I would hope that the drivers who may be left surplus after the routes have been re-allocated to GA can be seamlessly channelled into shoring up and improving what remains of DB's core service.

salmocab

Voipjunkie wrote: »

The second point is that there is going to be significant out of service running costs no matter where this new depot (if it is a single depot) is built. The 10% includes routes in Balbriggan to Bray

They might opt to have say one central garage for maintenance and rent space from existing setups for parking cleaning and fueling on a day by day basis, there is a large plot of land near me that a private coach company use that im sure would be happy to rent parking space and cleaning services to another company to make extra money for very little outlay, both companys could win in a situation like that.

devnull

Voipjunkie wrote: »

Trade unions missed a trick here, by ensuring that DB employees would not move with their routes they allowed the new entrant to base their wages on a new entrant level rather than existing employee wage levels as they would have done under TUPE, this would significantly reduce the cost of the contract for the first number of years alone.

Indeed - this is what I thought at the time, essentially it allows the operator that is coming in to base their staff costs on it's own calculations rather than on the calculations of what the staff are earning now.

Although as said earlier, the gap in costs must still be fairly decent, if the new operator is cheaper than Dublin Bus, despite having to factor in building a depot, which would be a cost that obviously Dublin Bus wouldn't have.

Now whether that cost difference would have been big enough to sway it in Dublin Bus' favour if there was TUPE is another question I guess we will never know the answer to.

The second point is that there is going to be significant out of service running costs no matter where this new depot (if it is a single depot) is built. The 10% includes routes in Balbriggan to Bray

On RTE earlier it was suggested that there was going to be 35% increase in the kms covered, although it did not explicitly state if that would include the new routes that Dublin Bus would run to cover the lost work or it just related to the 24 routes that will be operated by GoAhead.

devnull

Voipjunkie wrote: »

AFAIR at the time the talk was that the NTA would build the depot and it would be provided to the operator in the same way as the buses, they don't own them when the contract is up everything still belongs to the NTA. Much the same at the Luas depots don't belong to Transdev.

I would assume that the operator has to pay for it - else the fact that four operators pulled out because they would have to build a depot doesn't make sense if they were not paying for it anyway.

_Kaiser_

devnull wrote: »

Generally when I've seen bus strikes happen in the UK it's very very rare that two companies go on strike at once out of sympathy, even when they share the same union, for example the recent Tower Transit strike in London did not result in other operators going out on industrial action.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's rare in London and London would be the kind of operation that the NTA appear to be trying to model Dublin on to some extent.



BE and IE are related though in that they are branches of CIE at the end of the day, this is not something that will be the case with Dublin Bus and the Go Ahead operated routes + see above.

I'm referring to the actual membership/staff though rather than an official company-sponsored sympathy action.

If enough of GA's union members went out on sympathy action with counterparts from the same union, there'd definitely be an impact.

The only way I see of preventing this is GA taking a stance of "sure, you can join a union but we're not under any obligation to recognise it" as happens for example in many tech multinationals.

Not sure if that approach is permitted though in the transport sector?

_Kaiser_

salmocab wrote: »

They might opt to have say one central garage for maintenance and rent space from existing setups for parking cleaning and fueling on a day by day basis, there is a large plot of land near me that a private coach company use that im sure would be happy to rent parking space and cleaning services to another company to make extra money for very little outlay, both companys could win in a situation like that.

Still think the best idea is to co-locate in existing DB facilities - the ownership of which (seeing as DB/CIE is entirely state owned anyway) could simply be transferred to the NTA.

Don't the NTA own the buses now after all? Or is it only buses bought after x date?

LXFlyer

StreetLight wrote: »

Point taken.

But I really do suspect that DB management will be glad to quietly capitalise on this event to streamline their operation without the hassle of having to deal with cutting pay or cutting staff.

Time and again, a significant amount of departures are not operated due to a continual shortage of drivers. I would hope that the drivers who may be left surplus after the routes have been re-allocated to GA can be seamlessly channelled into shoring up and improving what remains of DB's core service.

The single biggest issue causing departures to be cancelled right now is congestion as opposed to driver shortages. Buses not getting from one end of the route to the other in the time allowed. That results in departures either being cancelled or curtailed in order to get the bus and driver back on schedule.

Hopefully the situation will change in the city centre, but we've seen that the 75 needed a full timetable recast with extra buses and drivers to deliver pretty much the same weekday daytime service level. New buses take time to deliver - the city bus operations are only getting 30 additional buses this year.

I suspect that initially the service levels are going to get worse rather than better with the implementation of the new traffic measures in the city centre associated with the LUAS Green Line extension.

For anyone using the 9, 16 and 122 they are certainly going to get worse if the NTA/DCC routing plans are delivered upon.

devnull

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

I'm referring to the actual membership/staff though rather than an official company-sponsored sympathy action.

If enough of GA's union members went out on sympathy action with counterparts from the same union, there'd definitely be an impact.

The only way I see of preventing this is GA taking a stance of "sure, you can join a union but we're not under any obligation to recognise it" as happens for example in many tech multinationals.

I cannot see it happening though. Unite staff went on strike at Tower Transit in London and Unite would represent staff in Go-Ahead and other London operators but nobody went out on industrial action in sympathy either officially or unofficially.

Also judging by what happened when BE tried to get Irish Rail and Dublin Bus involved and how quickly they went back to work after the threat of legal action, it's unlikely to be a goer anyway.

LeinsterDub

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Still think the best idea is to co-locate in existing DB facilities - the ownership of which (seeing as DB/CIE is entirely state owned anyway) could simply be transferred to the NTA.

Don't the NTA own the buses now after all? Or is it only buses bought after x date?

DB wouldn't share their toys

LXFlyer

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Still think the best idea is to co-locate in existing DB facilities - the ownership of which (seeing as DB/CIE is entirely state owned anyway) could simply be transferred to the NTA.

Don't the NTA own the buses now after all? Or is it only buses bought after x date?

Only buses purchased after a certain date. The majority are still DB owned.

As part of the deal hammered out with the unions and the government it was agreed that there would be no co-location. Daft I agree but that's the situation.

However, I would say that given DB will now expand the service levels on the routes that it continues to operate and not see a reduction in its fleet, I'm not sure where you'd fit the Go-Ahead fleet - it would be a bit of a challenge.

_Kaiser_

LeinsterDub wrote: »

DB wouldn't share their toys

Don't see why it's up to them.. as a State-owned entity the "assets" aren't really theirs anyway but the Government. It'd just be a matter of administratively transferring the ownership/management from one such entity to the other (NTA).

DB/CIE may not be happy, but surely it's better than duplicating facilities for buses that are owned by the NTA anyway


EDIT: Reading the above... ahh!! Seems ridiculous they capitulated on this one. Eventually you'll have a situation where you'll have companies owning/leasing sites for buses none of them own.

MOH

AngryLips wrote: »

How has that helped to date? We are already seeing services creep into the greater Dublin area with a plethora of branding and fare structures that are completely inconsistent. We are also seeing operators allowed to undermine flagship NTA projects such as Leap Card by being permitted operate without the requirement to accept this method of payment (Aircoach, Glendalough Bus). Bus stops continue to be operator specific creating street clutter that will get worse with this tender. At least Dublin Bus has reliable wifi, smart ticketing and consistent in-trip experience. I can't say that about anyone else.

Reliable wifi? Nope, nothing particularly reliable about it.
Consistent in-trip experience? They can't even decide if they want you to use the middle door or not.
And isn't the ticketing down to the NTA?

So 0/3 there.

ED E

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Don't see why it's up to them.. as a State-owned entity the "assets" aren't really theirs anyway but the Government. It'd just be a matter of administratively transferring the ownership/management from one such entity to the other (NTA).

DB/CIE may not be happy, but surely it's better than duplicating facilities for buses that are owned by the NTA anyway


EDIT: Reading the above... ahh!! Seems ridiculous they capitulated on this one. Eventually you'll have a situation where you'll have companies owning/leasing sites for buses none of them own.

Its up to them purely because they'll hold the country to ransom if it were attempted.

Stop Thatcher Politics

A bad day for Dublin Bus, its passengers and public transport here in general.

The only criteria Dublin Bus could have lost this tender was on cost. I suspect Go-Ahead submitted an ultra low tender for this in order to gain market presence in advance of bigger future tenders.

I have several questions:

• Who is going to pay for a new depot? Its a disgraceful use of public funds if the NTA is going to pay for a depot for a British company while state owned depots have buckets of capacity.
• Is the NTA going to massively increase subsidy to Dublin Bus to have a major expansion of services in order to keep 100's of Dublin Bus drivers in work?
• Is the NTA going to provide funds to significantly increase fleet size to facilitate the above?
• If Dublin Bus has to let go of drivers, will the NTA/DOT pay for voluntary severance?
• Will Dublin Bus require additional subsidy as it will be a smaller company with less economies of scale?
• Whats going to happen to the 90% of routes in 2019? If Dublin Bus cant win 10% how could it win bigger tenders?
• If some drivers want to transfer to Go-Ahead under TUPE have Go Ahead factored in their pay rates (I suspect not)
• Will there be job losses in Dublin Bus maintenance?
• How will the Subsidy/ Free Travel scheme funds be apportioned out to this operator? Both are just a block grant currently.
• What happens customers who use Dublin Bus ticket products?
• Many of those routes are interlinked with routes not being tendered out. This will have a major impact on rosters,timetables and costs. Has this been considered?

The time and money Dublin Bus wasted on this pointless exercise (including hiring advisors) which could have been used for more fruitful purposes, when the agenda was likely stacked against them in any case.

_Kaiser_

ED E wrote: »

Its up to them purely because they'll hold the country to ransom if it were attempted.

At some point the unions will need to be faced down, especially if indeed their membership is going to be split among more operators who may or may not engage with them.

Besides, I can see a ridiculous situation down the line where you'll have complaints that their potential earnings are being impacted by owning and paying for facilities for buses they don't own (as more of the older DB fleet is replaced by NTA owned vehicles).

end of the road

ED E wrote: »

Its up to them purely because they'll hold the country to ransom if it were attempted.

it would be impossible for them to hold the country to ransom hence it has never happened.
i suspect the likely reason any transfer of facilities hasn't happened is that it probably isn't as simple as being able to transfer the depots from 1 agency to another.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

At some point the unions will need to be faced down, especially if indeed their membership is going to be split among more operators who may or may not engage with them.

the unions won't need to be faced down at all, unless the idea is to drive down all terms conditions and workers rights (which is highly likely)
so i would hope any attempt to face unions down will be stopped hard as otherwise the rest of us in unions will be attacked and our rights terms and conditions driven to the bottom.

_Kaiser_

Stop Thatcher Politics wrote: »

I have several questions:

• Who is going to pay for a new depot? Its a disgraceful use of public funds if the NTA is going to pay for a depot for a British company while state owned depots have buckets of capacity.
• Is the NTA going to massively increase subsidy to Dublin Bus to have a major expansion of services in order to keep 100's of Dublin Bus drivers in work?
• Is the NTA going to provide funds to significantly increase fleet size to facilitate the above?
• If Dublin Bus has to let go of drivers, will the NTA/DOT pay for voluntary severance?
• Will Dublin Bus require additional subsidy as it will be a smaller company with less economies of scale?
• Whats going to happen to the 90% of routes in 2019? If Dublin Bus cant win 10% how could it win bigger tenders?
• If some drivers want to transfer to Go-Ahead under TUPE have Go Ahead factored in their pay rates (I suspect not)
• Will there be job losses in Dublin Bus maintenance?
• How will the Subsidy/ Free Travel scheme funds be apportioned out to this operator? Both are just a block grant currently.
• What happens customers who use Dublin Bus ticket products?
• Many of those routes are interlinked with routes not being tendered out. This will have a major impact on rosters,timetables and costs. Has this been considered?

I'll have a go at some...


1. GA themselves, either outright or leasing or perhaps sharing existing facilities with private operators. Don't see whey them being British has any relevance tbh


2. Why would they? From my own experience and indeed reports frequently posted here, there's more than enough opportunity to cut down on the number of missing services with any surplus vehicles/drivers.


3. Do we know that DB will be retaining use of those vehicles anyway if they're NTA owned? Would they not simply be reassigned to GA? (seems the better option than unnecessarily buying loads more buses)


5. Can't imagine so. If anything they'd get less as they now have a smaller service to maintain?


6. I'd imagine the same tendering process would be used? It may result in additional operators coming in or GA expanding, or indeed DB retaining some/all services


10. I'd think that people will just need to use LEAP or cash?

LXFlyer

Stop Thatcher Politics wrote: »

A bad day for Dublin Bus, its passengers and public transport here in general.

The only criteria Dublin Bus could have lost this tender was on cost. I suspect Go-Ahead submitted an ultra low tender for this in order to gain market presence in advance of bigger future tenders.

I have several questions:

• Who is going to pay for a new depot? Its a disgraceful use of public funds if the NTA is going to pay for a depot for a British company while state owned depots have buckets of capacity.
• Is the NTA going to massively increase subsidy to Dublin Bus to have a major expansion of services in order to keep 100's of Dublin Bus drivers in work?
• Is the NTA going to provide funds to significantly increase fleet size to facilitate the above?
• If Dublin Bus has to let go of drivers, will the NTA/DOT pay for voluntary severance?
• Will Dublin Bus require additional subsidy as it will be a smaller company with less economies of scale?
• Whats going to happen to the 90% of routes in 2019? If Dublin Bus cant win 10% how could it win bigger tenders?
• If some drivers want to transfer to Go-Ahead under TUPE have Go Ahead factored in their pay rates (I suspect not)
• Will there be job losses in Dublin Bus maintenance?
• How will the Subsidy/ Free Travel scheme funds be apportioned out to this operator? Both are just a block grant currently.
• What happens customers who use Dublin Bus ticket products?
• Many of those routes are interlinked with routes not being tendered out. This will have a major impact on rosters,timetables and costs. Has this been considered?

The time and money Dublin Bus wasted on this pointless exercise (including hiring advisors) which could have been used for more fruitful purposes, when the agenda was likely stacked against them in any case.

- Go-Ahead pay for the depot.
- DB retain the same subsidies as present to operate more services on routes retained
- The government and NTA are going to have to increase capital and current funding to allow for the new buses to go to Go-Ahead and for them to operate the routes - this was already explained at the BusConnects launch - there is going to be a ramping up of investment in the bus services.
- No redundancies at DB - existing routes will see service levels increase so no change in company size
- No drivers forced to transfer ex-DB - I expect Go-Ahead to hire entirely new staff
- The FTP will have to be reallocated but may require an increase for the new service levels
- You have a point re DB tickets (i.e. ramblers) but monthly/annual will be across both operators
- New rosters will be needed for the 14, 33, 61 and 116 - buses will operate other or additional DB services instead of the 33a or 161

XPS_Zero

AngryLips wrote: »

Is it just me or is anyone worried that this will do to DB what the private operators are doing to B The main difference being that DB are a decent and much more customer focused service compared to B

Hopefully it will make them up their game so they can take the routes back, if this is being done the way the London TFL does it then it will be a success, the actual visual look of the service won't change just performance, same drivers even.

The private intercity model is flawed I don't think this model has similar flaws.

It's really just the Luas model in Bus form, experience has taught us total privatization is a disaster, and total state ownership is a disaster (in transport I mean) , so a hybrid model works best. If you're not upset about the Luas, you should not be upset about this because it's the same thing

suicide_circus

Who is gonna drive for them? I thought DB struggled to hire on the new piddling salaries?

Tickityboo

Sods law!!
http://news.sky.com/story/double-decker-crashes-into-lavender-hill-shop-in-london-10981844

LXFlyer

suicide_circus wrote: »

Who is gonna drive for them? I thought DB struggled to hire on the new piddling salaries?

We shall have to wait and see how they get on.

That's a fair bit down the road (a full year away at least).

Dyr

You get the impression that in a few decades the NTA will just be CIE 2.0. All the self interest but none of the staff

markpb

Bambi wrote: »

You get the impression that in a few decades the NTA will just be CIE 2.0. All the self interest but none of the staff

-You- get that impression.

XPS_Zero

seamus wrote: »

They're sh1tting themselves.

Go-Ahead have a 5-year contract with potential two-year extension, so most of the staff they hire will be outsourced or on fixed-term contracts. The vast majority of these workers won't be bothered joining a union because a union can offer very little to those on such contracts.

And the NBRU has been ingrained into the public sector for decades, right up to management. A new private operator has no previous history with the NBRU, its management will have no desire or requirement to even recognise the NBRU and it will very limited ability to send representatives in to recruit the new staff.

The break-up of public transport services from the traditional monopolies represents the decline of union power. The Luas and BÉ strikes were absolute disasters for unions because the strength in numbers didn't exist. The NBRU could only look on as SIPTU made a meal of their strike, and the BÉ drivers had no legs to stand on and no support from other parts of the NBRU.

The entry of a private operator further weakens their power base. If private operators were to run 50% of Dublin routes, then the NBRU could hold strikes till the cows come home and Dublin would still have busses.

That's what they're afraid of.

I'm of the opinion that we need a unionised workforce in the private sector , and ive noticed through being a member of one in both that the private sector unions are very different in character (recognizing employer realities like finite resources in ways PS ones don't)

The public unions have only themselves to blame for their decline, they abused their monopoly power for stupid reasons many a time, and evolved to protect inefficiency, incompetence and sloth rather than workers as they were originally intended. By protecting those things (worldwide PS unions, not just here but it's pretty bad here) they are undermining the entire point of unions in the public mindset, and the idea of a union, corrupting it's image. Thats before getting into their "im all right jack" attitude on the pension issue, there is a demographic issue needs resolving re pensions and since they mostly represent the PS they don't give a flying f__-k about the rest of us.
That's before getting into the OTHER big issue - they've lost touch with ordinary workers, their leadership I mean, they are on massive 6 figure salaries hob nobbing with the elite , on boards of banks they've no f-__g business on whatsoever, they ought to be paid the average wage of their members.
They are a dinosaur that deserves to die, maybe when it does we can start over and unionize everyone, with mostly private sector workers dominating unions maybe they'd regain their connection to reality.

devnull

Bambi wrote: »

You get the impression that in a few decades the NTA will just be CIE 2.0. All the self interest but none of the staff

The NTA have done more for integration of public transport than CIE did in their history at least in my view.

ED E

end of the road wrote: »

it would be impossible for them to hold the country to ransom hence it has never happened.
i suspect the likely reason any transfer of facilities hasn't happened is that it probably isn't as simple as being able to transfer the depots from 1 agency to another.



the unions won't need to be faced down at all, unless the idea is to drive down all terms conditions and workers rights (which is highly likely)
so i would hope any attempt to face unions down will be stopped hard as otherwise the rest of us in unions will be attacked and our rights terms and conditions driven to the bottom.

Unions are Jesus. The usual tripe.

Dyr

devnull wrote: »

The NTA have done more for integration of public transport than CIE did in their history at least in my view.

I would agree and I think over the next few years they will continue to do good work and expand their remit but they'll live long enough to see themselves become the villain

It is the way of public sector bodies

XPS_Zero

The NTA owns the Luas depot don't see why there can't be an NTA BUS depot.

You gotta love the people saying "DB won't share their toys", they're a public owned company, all it takes is a minister with some balls to say "yeh - we own you, were not asking permission were just informing you".

The mere fact that anyone could imagine a public company saying no to the executive branch of the state shows how these companies and their unions have been allowed runaway power.

XPS_Zero

Dublin Bus is not some independent entity, it's owned by the public, the public is represented by an elected government, that government (and the one before it, and the one before that) have decided that the NTA model is better than the old CIE model, so they will do what they are told because they are just a public corporation, a legal tool of the state, filled with public servants not masters

They're not private companies off making their own massive profits and were giving them some kind of defacto subsidy by giving them a depot, they're just a contractor operating a public service obligation route on behalf of the state because the competition showed they'd do a better job than Dublin Bus

It's no different to CIE using a lift contractor instead of doing it themselves and letting the contractors use the canteen in Connoly station. Dublin Bus and the new operator are BOTH doing PSO routes, the same job.

LXFlyer

XPS_Zero wrote: »

You misunderstand, 10% are not being privatized, they' were out for tender/competition.

TUPE will probably mean the same drivers will just transfer to a new contract, the NTA sets the fares. Most of those routes are PSO and don't make profits anyway, the company will be paid a set rate, the farebox money goes to the NTA, it's up to the company if the set rate is a little or a lot.

I would imagine that few if any DB drivers will transfer.

They have been guaranteed by the Government that DB retained services will increase to compensate for the loss of these routes, and that no redundancies will take place.

The NTA will continue to set fares and schedules - the new operator will simply be that - an operator.

XPS_Zero

LXFlyer wrote: »

I would imagine that few if any DB drivers will transfer.

They have been guaranteed by the Government that DB retained services will increase to compensate for the loss of these routes, and that no redundancies will take place.

The NTA will continue to set fares and schedules - the new operator will simply be that - an operator.

But, whatever their choice, it is a choice, it's NOT a case of "sorry lads were privatizing the lot, you're fired , were bringing in some Pakistanis to do it for €4 an hour who will also get a bi-hourly beating to keep them in line", as stay behind seems to fear.

LXFlyer

XPS_Zero wrote: »

But, whatever their choice, it is a choice, it's NOT a case of "sorry lads were privatizing the lot, you're fired , were bringing in some Pakistanis to do it for €4 an hour who will also get a bi-hourly beating to keep them in line", as stay behind seems to fear.

Oh absolutely!

Although it does remain to see what the terms and conditions that Go Ahead offer are like.

But that's a long way down the track.

devnull

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goingnowhere

XPS_Zero wrote: »

The NTA owns the Luas depot don't see why there can't be an NTA BUS depot.

You gotta love the people saying "DB won't share their toys", they're a public owned company, all it takes is a minister with some balls to say "yeh - we own you, were not asking permission were just informing you".

Transport Infrastructure Ireland own the 'Luas' but is 'run' by the NTA

Every single bus with double doors is NTA owned, the NTA insisted on centre doors and wiring those doors to take a smartcard reader thats 430 buses

Dublin Bus don't own anything, the depots are all under the CIE balance sheet and the buses they do own are on the way out anyway by the time the NTA gets to 100% all the buses will be there own.

Also good news is the Go Ahead routes will all have centre doors i.e. decent buses, the 17 was always last on the list, was one of the last KD routes