Sat 9th April 9th Connacht V Grenoble - European Glory

wp_rathead

Haha ah so much saltiness here I love it

jm08

nice_guy80 wrote: »

It's nothing to do with having foreign import coaches.

It's the willingness to try different things and the way coach education is directed and run.
Traditional methods are the safe methods, used for decades methods

It's the pressure to win that causes such conservative coaching. There is an interview with Jason Holland (former Munster centre and backs coach, now Hurricanes Backs coach) about 10 years ago where he says similar things about how the game is coached at underage and how there is too much pressure to win.

Connacht are in the position where there isn't that kind of pressure to win that the rest have. At the moment they can't do anything wrong - a bit like Munster 15 years ago.

former total

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Connacht easily the best Irish rugby team this year. Once again, we are given an example of how inept we are at producing good quality coaches.

Take a look at how Connacht played yesterday and ask yourself how many of the so called top paid Irish coaches of recent years could get Connacht to play like that:

1. EOS
2. Kidney
3. Axel
4. Leo Cullen
5. Michael Bradley
6. Eric Elwood

No way. Me thinks.

On the other side look who has been coaching some of the best Irish sides in terms of running Rugby skills (offloading, spatial awareness, passing etc)

1. Connacht: Pat Lam - NZ
2. Leinster back to back Heineken Cup team - Joe. NZ
3. Belvedere great off loading skills in the SCT this year - Phil W. NZ

That's an odd post in the aftermath of a defeat that should have been a victory. Does Lam deserve all the credit for the attacking game and none of the blame for the other deficiencies?

Eddie's team played probably the best rugby any Irish team has ever managed so that's not right. Leo Cullen is in his first season; remember Pat's first season? Bradley and Elwood were coaching Connacht under much more difficult circumstances than Lam is, again not comparing like with like.

So give Lam his dues, but poorly informed and invidious comparisons to other coaches are not the best way to do it.

jm08

former total wrote: »

That's an odd post in the aftermath of a defeat that should have been a victory. Does Lam deserve all the credit for the attacking game and none of the blame for the other deficiencies?

Eddie's team played probably the best rugby any Irish team has ever managed so that's not right. Leo Cullen is in his first season; remember Pat's first season? Bradley and Elwood were coaching Connacht under much more difficult circumstances than Lam is, again not comparing like with like.

So give Lam his dues, but poorly informed and invidious comparisons to other coaches are not the best way to do it.

Little clip of Kidney's Munster v Toulouse in Hcup semi.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZjMCkiA_iM

OldRio

jm08 wrote: »

Little clip of Kidney's Munster v Toulouse in Hcup semi.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JZjMCkiA_iM

Sorry for hijacking a thread about Munster but Connacht v Grenoble eh?
Some match.

jm08

OldRio wrote: »

Sorry for hijacking a thread about Munster but Connacht v Grenoble eh?
Some match.

It was very entertaining. Pity Connacht lost.

For the record, that clip was in the context that Pat Lam is the only coach to get an Irish team to play 'good' rugby. To be inclusive, I'd also say that Leinster played some very entertaining rugby when Coached by Cheika (Knox as backs coach). Who can forget that Hickie try v. Toulouse.

Rightwing

jm08 wrote: »

It's always personal reasons. Very hard to respond to, but I think Henshaw has let Connacht down badly with a right kick in the teeth. Talking about biting the hand that feeds you.

Correct. They just shouldn't be playing him anymore.

Rightwing

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The two of you were just waiting to put the boot in. It's laughably obvious that there's been huge envy of Connacht in certain quarters and a result like this is manna from heaven.

Rubbish.

I want Connacht to win the league, (the competition last night is mickey mouse one so I wouldn't be too concerned about it), and openly admit they are playing the best rugby in the league. However, when certain players are queueing up to leave, questions must be asked. Will these players give it their all, let's say in a final v Leinster. I have my doubts.

CMOTDibbler

Rightwing wrote: »

Big problem here.

Players like Henshaw have no respect for Connacht and will leave at the first sight of a $. 1 season wonder with no silverware, and yes, you can bookmark this if you must.

Rightwing wrote: »

Lam is better than Foley, but the Connacht players don't care for the jersey, it's a mere stepping stone, led by their so called marque players. Sad reality of it.

Rightwing wrote: »

Rubbish.

I want Connacht to win the league, (the competition last night is mickey mouse one so I wouldn't be too concerned about it), and openly admit they are playing the best rugby in the league. However, when certain players are queueing up to leave, questions must be asked. Will these players give it their all, let's say in a final v Leinster. I have my doubts.

I'm calling your nonsense and no revisionist bullcrap is going to change what you said about the province as a whole.

Even jm08 called you on your charactarisation of Henshaw leaving for the money. It's patently untrue and a slur on the guy who's main motivation is to be close to his girlfriend in Dublin. Leinster can't pay him more than Connacht and his position as an Irish starting player makes any commercial opportunities marginal.

evil_seed

So the match thread is descending into chaos. Keep it for the province threads.

Our bench didn't have the depth.
15 minutes with no out half isn't acceptable.
John Muldoon, what a hero
Matt Healy, bottled lightning.
Not sure how to feel as a whole on that. On one hand immensely proud that my team can play that way, but then to come so close to winning and getting another step closer to what is possibly our best chance at our 1st ever trophy.
It would have taken some ref to give the correct decision at the end, but alas them's the brakes.

Connacht Abú!

jm08

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm calling your nonsense and no revisionist bullcrap is going to change what you said about the province as a whole.

Even jm08 called you on your charactarisation of Henshaw leaving for the money. It's patently untrue and a slur on the guy who's main motivation is to be close to his girlfriend in Dublin. Leinster can't pay him more than Connacht and his position as an Irish starting player makes any commercial opportunities marginal.

I must say I find the girlfriend excuse rather pathetic. Dublin is hardly Outer Mongolia. Did it ever dawn on the girlfriend to move to Galway? When you see what Bundee Aki gets on with all his family (including 2 children) living on the other side of the world.

Buer

Would actually agree with some of the points being made and some stark self assessment is required by Connacht if they have real designs on moving to the next level.

However, not really the time for such criticisms and it really is boy who cried wolf stuff given the source of the criticism.

Tox56

jm08 wrote: »

I must say I find the girlfriend excuse rather pathetic. Dublin is hardly Outer Mongolia. Did it ever dawn on the girlfriend to move to Galway? When you see what Bundee Aki gets on with all his family (including 2 children) living on the other side of the world.

Honestly mate even for you this is crossing a line, you're making comments and accusations on a guys personal life when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

jm08

Tox56 wrote: »

Honestly mate even for you this is crossing a line, you're making comments and accusations on a guys personal life when you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about

That criticism it based on the reason stated above that he wants to be near his girlfriend who is in Dublin. I don't consider Galway to be far from Dublin.

Other reason like commercial opportunities playing for Leinster has also been given.

My opinion is that Robbie owed Connacht another season or two to set them up right as he is still very young.

CMOTDibbler

jm08 wrote: »

That criticism it based on the reason stated above that he wants to be near his girlfriend who is in Dublin. I don't consider Galway to be far from Dublin.

FFS. A five hour return trip when you're trying to synchronsie what little overlapping free time you have is a complication you'd try and eliminate if possible.

You're very glib with your answers to other people's problems.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

Would actually agree with some of the points being made and some stark self assessment is required by Connacht if they have real designs on moving to the next level.

However, not really the time for such criticisms and it really is boy who cried wolf stuff given the source of the criticism.

Bit OTT. They lost a game by a point to a last minute DG away in France, in the middle of an injury crisis to out half(and other positions), leaving them with NO out half on the pitch for nearly 1/4 of the match.

Are there things that need to be improved? Absolutely, every team always has things they need to work on, but they're already doing that; the improved defensive performances recently show that they are working on what needs to be worked on.

Lam is a great coach and it's a dedicated squad, I'd imagine they are starkly self-assessing all the time.

Buer

I don't think it's OTT at all, just realistic. They were 19-3 up and cruising before hitting the self destruct button.

Grenoble are great to watch but are not a very good side. Connacht will come up against much sterner tests in Europe next season. They need to address their shortcomings.

I'm not sure I'd say the defence has been massively improved. It was pretty abysmal last night only making 78% of tackles. That's not progress in an area where they knew they were going to be really tested.

The challenge is to consolidate the multiple positive elements from this season and build the game plan and team's abilities without sacrificing the attacking progress.

My intention is not to be overly harsh in my assessment but if Connacht leave that game thinking they can be proud of their campaign and they did well then they need to think again. They should be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity. Even with O'Leary at outhalf, they're good enough to win that game.

its_phil

Buer wrote: »

Would actually agree with some of the points being made and some stark self assessment is required by Connacht if they have real designs on moving to the next level.

However, not really the time for such criticisms and it really is boy who cried wolf stuff given the source of the criticism.

Agree completely

neelia11

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's OTT at all, just realistic. They were 19-3 up and cruising before hitting the self destruct button.

Grenoble are great to watch but are not a very good side. Connacht will come up against much sterner tests in Europe next season. They need to address their shortcomings.

I'm not sure I'd say the defence has been massively improved. It was pretty abysmal last night only making 78% of tackles. That's not progress in an area where they knew they were going to be really tested.

The challenge is to consolidate the multiple positive elements from this season and build the game plan and team's abilities without sacrificing the attacking progress.

My intention is to be overly harsh in my assessment but if Connacht leave that game thinking they can be proud of their campaign and they did well then they need to think again. They should be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity. Even with O'Leary at outhalf, they're good enough to win that game.

One area which they need to address is exit strategies. There is nothing wrong with collecting a kick off getting a breakdown on the 15/22 spot and getting the ball off the pitch close to halfway. Connacht seem to thing that isnt a viable option. The wisniewski try in the first half came off the lineout which Grenoble got from the SOL crossfield kick in his own 22.

Bazzo

Buer wrote: »

I don't think it's OTT at all, just realistic. They were 19-3 up and cruising before hitting the self destruct button.

Grenoble are great to watch but are not a very good side. Connacht will come up against much sterner tests in Europe next season. They need to address their shortcomings.

I'm not sure I'd say the defence has been massively improved. It was pretty abysmal last night only making 78% of tackles. That's not progress in an area where they knew they were going to be really tested.

The challenge is to consolidate the multiple positive elements from this season and build the game plan and team's abilities without sacrificing the attacking progress.

My intention is to be overly harsh in my assessment but if Connacht leave that game thinking they can be proud of their campaign and they did well then they need to think again. They should be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity. Even with O'Leary at outhalf, they're good enough to win that game.

I'm not saying it was flawless performance, it was obviously disappointing and they should have won. It's interesting you mention the 19-3 lead when, and I know it looks pretty harsh on him but I think it's valid, O'Leary was probably ultimately responsible for giving away 10 of them points. The ludicrous cross field kick inside his own 22 led to a Grenoble line out and ultimately a try and then he put a restart out on the full, Connacht were penalised in the scrum and a penalty was scored. Carty, MacGinty or Ronaldson at 10 and that doesn't happen if you ask me.

neelia11

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm not saying it was flawless performance, it was obviously disappointing and they should have won. It's interesting you mention the 19-3 lead when, and I know it looks pretty harsh on him but I think it's valid, O'Leary was probably ultimately responsible for giving away 10 of them points. The ludicrous cross field kick inside his own 22 led to a Grenoble line out and ultimately a try and then he put a restart out on the full, Connacht were penalised in the scrum and a penalty was scored. Carty, MacGinty or Ronaldson at 10 and that doesn't happen if you ask me.

But we have seen connacht play with ball in hand in their own 22 quite a lot. A bit more pragmatic playing the scoreboard in the lead up to half time is required in that situation, and there is enough experience in that side to just make the call to catch, set & clear. There seems to be an unwillingness to do the boring/safe stuff at the right time. Who is responsible for that call?

Billysays no

neelia11 wrote: »

But we have seen connacht play with ball in hand in their own 22 quite a lot. A bit more pragmatic playing the scoreboard in the lead up to half time is required in that situation, and there is enough experience in that side to just make the call to catch, set & clear. There seems to be an unwillingness to do the boring/safe stuff at the right time. Who is responsible for that call?

strangely i find myself in agreement with you neelia (a first). i think what you say will be intensly discussed at team meetings in the next few days. How can a team that held Leinster to two kicks at goals now allow over 30 points be scored against them. I love the connacht open play. I also love when connacht win. I would be happy with a boring win over an exciting loss against Munster

Mr Tickle

Buer wrote: »

My intention is not to be overly harsh in my assessment but if Connacht leave that game thinking they can be proud of their campaign and they did well then they need to think again. They should be kicking themselves for a missed opportunity. Even with O'Leary at outhalf, they're good enough to win that game.

They would but there's nobody left to do it....

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

That criticism it based on the reason stated above that he wants to be near his girlfriend who is in Dublin. I don't consider Galway to be far from Dublin.

Other reason like commercial opportunities playing for Leinster has also been given.

My opinion is that Robbie owed Connacht another season or two to set them up right as he is still very young.

He doesn't owe anyone anything

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

He doesn't owe anyone anything

Really? he doesn't owe his parents, underage coaches, Pat Lam, his team mates in Connacht nothing?

CatFromHue

lets be realistic here.

if he wasn't making the grade at rugby his parents would have kicked him out years ago

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

Really? he doesn't owe his parents, underage coaches, Pat Lam, his team mates in Connacht nothing?

He might owe his parents for the nappies he wore growing up, but no, he's not indebted to anyone else on that list.

leinstertalk

jm08 wrote: »

Really? he doesn't owe his parents, underage coaches, Pat Lam, his team mates in Connacht nothing?

Bizarre.

sydthebeat

theres a huge lack of understanding of the concept of "professionalism" over the last few pages.....

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

Really? he doesn't owe his parents, underage coaches, Pat Lam, his team mates in Connacht nothing?

If you're out of contract in your job, do you owe your company anything?

former total

CatFromHue wrote: »

lets be realistic here.

if he wasn't making the grade at rugby his parents would have kicked him out years ago

Yep, no 22 year old men still living at home in Ireland...

Besides, don't his parents live in Leinster? So maybe this is his way of saying "thanks ma, thanks da, I'll make you and my native province proud!"

freyners

sydthebeat wrote: »

theres a huge lack of understanding of the concept of "professionalism" over the last few pages.....

Deliberate misunderstanding to justify an indefensible viewpoint more like

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you're out of contract in your job, do you owe your company anything?

In many cases you do need to put in a certain amount of time for training / education received. For example, cadets in defence forces have to put in a certain amount of time for training received before they can move onto another job.

Rugby is still operating as amateur sport in this respect. If Henshaw was a soccer player Leinster would be compensating Henshaw's local club, probably his school and the Connacht Academy for developing him (who would also have arranged his education for him in UCG).

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

In many cases you do need to put in a certain amount of time for training / education received. For example, cadets in defence forces have to put in a certain amount of time for training received before they can move onto another job.

Rugby is still operating as amateur sport in this respect. If Henshaw was a soccer player Leinster would be compensating Henshaw's local club, probably his school and the Connacht Academy for developing him (who would also have arranged his education for him in UCG).

That would be within the contract of the job....................

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

In many cases you do need to put in a certain amount of time for training / education received. For example, cadets in defence forces have to put in a certain amount of time for training received before they can move onto another job.

Rugby is still operating as amateur sport in this respect. If Henshaw was a soccer player Leinster would be compensating Henshaw's local club, probably his school and the Connacht Academy for developing him (who would also have arranged his education for him in UCG).

Uhm. This is patently untrue.

Out of contract players are out of contract players.

Doesn't matter what sport.

neelia11

Deleted User wrote: »

Uhm. This is patently untrue.

Out of contract players are out of contract players.

Doesn't matter what sport.

FIFA have rules for players under 24 i think, compensation gets paid, filters down to a players schoolboy club. Robbie Keane and Kevin Doyle I think had moves which got their schoolboy clubs 5 figure sums

thomond2006

jm08 wrote: »

In many cases you do need to put in a certain amount of time for training / education received. For example, cadets in defence forces have to put in a certain amount of time for training received before they can move onto another job.

I'm not talking about a contractual obligation and nor were you in your original post. I'm talking about a personal/emotional obligation that you 'owe' somebody. Henshaw doesn't 'owe' anything. He fulfilled the terms of his contract. That's it.

Did JJ Hanrahan owe Munster? Did Marty Moore owe Leinster? It's natural as a supporter to feel aggrieved but if the players are out of contract then they are free to choose and shouldn't be made feel like they are letting anyone down by doing what they believe is best for them.

Rugby is still operating as amateur sport in this respect. If Henshaw was a soccer player Leinster would be compensating Henshaw's local club, probably his school and the Connacht Academy for developing him (who would also have arranged his education for him in UCG).

In this hypothetical situation, any compensation Leinster would have to pay has nothing to do with Henshaw. That's between the clubs.

Rugby doesn't have the 'training compensation' structure soccer has so it's not relevant anyway.

Edit: It appears this doesn't even apply in this case in soccer.

neelia11

neelia11 wrote: »

FIFA have rules for players under 24 i think, compensation gets paid, filters down to a players schoolboy club. Robbie Keane and Kevin Doyle I think had moves which got their schoolboy clubs 5 figure sums

In contract moves. Not out of contract moves.

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/football-player-breaking-contracts.htm

What you are referring to is the Solidarity Mechanism which explicitly states this
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/regulations_on_the_status_and_transfer_of_players_en_33410.pdf

Article 21 Solidarity mechanism wrote:

If a professional is transferred before the expiry of his contract, any club that has contributed to his education and training shall receive a proportion of the compensation paid to his former club (solidarity contribution). The provisions concerning solidarity contributions are set out in Annexe 5 of these regulations.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

Uhm. This is patently untrue.

Out of contract players are out of contract players.

Doesn't matter what sport.

it rarely happens in soccer that they get to run down their contracts now for that specific reason. If Henshaw was a soccer player he would have been forced to sign a much longer contract and then Connacht would have auctioned him off in the middle of it. And he would probably have gone to the highest bidder which might have been Bristol in the English championship!

All developing/junior/first clubs get compensated for the players they develop.

jm08

jm08 wrote: »

it rarely happens in soccer that they get to run down their contracts now for that specific reason. If Henshaw was a soccer player he would have been forced to sign a much longer contract and then Connacht would have auctioned him off in the middle of it. And he would probably have gone to the highest bidder which might have been Bristol in the English championship!

That's not what you said above, nor what I rubbished. Because it's not what's happened.

jm08 wrote: »

All developing/junior/first clubs get compensated for the players they develop.

No they don't. Not if a player finishes a contract, and moves to another side as a 'free agent' (just as Henshaw is doing). They are only entitled to percentages of transfer fees as explicitly laid out in the document I linked above. There were no transfer fees, there is no compensation.

The comparison and statement were rubbish.

b.gud

spurscormac

I think this thread is somewhat gone astray with the over and back rubbish re Henshaw.

Back to the thread title...

What an absolute stormer of a match.
Fantastic atmosphere inside the stadium. We scared the $#!t out of them for large portions of the game, quietened their fans, and then let them back into it twice.
Disappointing result but we win as a team and lose as a team.
So proud of the boys, and no recriminations, learn from it, move on, another game next week.

It sure is a great feeling to be in contention at this stage of the season.
Bring on the next game, I can't wait.

neelia11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

In contract moves. Not out of contract moves.

http://www.inbrief.co.uk/football-law/football-player-breaking-contracts.htm

What you are referring to is the Solidarity Mechanism which explicitly states this
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/regulations_on_the_status_and_transfer_of_players_en_33410.pdf

Danny ings as an example. Out of contract and u24. Moved to liverpool from burnley and a tribunal was required to determine the fee, Burnley wanted £10m, Not sure how much it was settled for. IIRC the tribunal sets the fee and some of it filters down to his developmental club(s)

jm08

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm not talking about a contractual obligation and nor were you in your original post. I'm talking about a personal/emotional obligation that you 'owe' somebody. Henshaw doesn't 'owe' anything. He fulfilled the terms of his contract. That's it.

That does not make sense to me. Your mixing up contractual and emotional obligations.

Contractually, he has fulfilled his obligations.

I think on the personal and emotional aspect he has let Connacht down.

Did JJ Hanrahan owe Munster? Did Marty Moore owe Leinster? It's natural as a supporter to feel aggrieved but if the players are out of contract then they are free to choose and shouldn't be made feel like they are letting anyone down by doing what they believe is best for them.

JJ isn't as big a loss to Munster as Henshaw is to Connacht. Similarly for Moore and Leinster. Henshaw was Connacht's poster boy.

In this hypothetical situation, any compensation Leinster would have to pay has nothing to do with Henshaw. That's between the clubs.

Rugby doesn't have the 'training compensation' structure soccer has so it's not relevant anyway.

Edit: It appears this doesn't even apply in this case in soccer.

Since Henshaw is effectively moving within the same organisation (which would have contributed to his development financially, training compensation is not going to happen in this instance.
However, I think Henshaw has short changed Connacht because even without compensation, the fact that he would have been on an IRFU Central contract would have been a major bonus for them.

So you're saying Henshaw does owe Connacht to sign for another season or two based on emotional obligations?

leinstertalk

I'd say his "emotional obligation" to his long term girlfriend is a greater factor.

CatFromHue

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're saying Henshaw does owe Connacht to sign for another season or two based on emotional obligations?

The Connacht negotiating team brought in some puppies to help wear Henshaw down but he's made of steel!

CMOTDibbler

CatFromHue wrote: »

The Connacht negotiating team brought in some puppies to help wear Henshaw down but he's made of steel!

Yes. And tears were shed too. :rolleyes:

As usual, jm08; having been called on endorsing a statement that the Connacht team are one season wonders and the Connacht players only foolow the dollars, is now arguing about the emotional turmoil Robbie Henshaw is leaving behind.

I'm surprised that he hasn't got Google maps out to prove it isn't a two and a half hour trip from Galway to Dublin.

jm08

Deleted User wrote: »

So you're saying Henshaw does owe Connacht to sign for another season or two based on emotional obligations?

Call it whatever you like, but there are many precedents set in sport (and in life) where effort in developing players (or work skills) has been given, the recipient can't just walk away without putting a number of years service in.

Everyone owes someone something.

neelia11

jm08 wrote: »

Call it whatever you like, but there are many precedents set in sport (and in life) where effort in developing players (or work skills) has been given, the recipient can't just walk away without putting a number of years service in.

Everyone owes someone something.

You cant compare normal life to a sports man/woman with a short time at their chosen sport. Henshaw wants to make the most of his career, professionally and financially and has obviously decided thats best served with Leinster for the next 3 years, maybe longer.