Paying cash for a house

If you saved up over a lifetime, & did live in 5 different countries, you would have to declare the money when you leave/enter countries.

Or, if you have your life savings in a few piggy banks, you could always just bring them to the bank & deposit them.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

but is this because it is so weird to actually save money nowadays? Couldn't I go to revenue and ask then or say... hey Ive got this lump sum, I want a house how can I do it legally?

Its extremely weird to save money in cash, considering the huge risks of theft, fire etc that far outweigh the imagined cyber crime or bank failure risks.

Also the impracticality of dealing with notes at changeovers, such as the Euro changover or the withdrawal of series 1 5, 10 and 20 notes to date.

Your scenario about moving cash around from country to country means you've probably also broken immigration law repeatedly - most countries have regulations on the amount of cash allowed.

Tigger

If you have a load of cash you need to lay bets with lots of bookies an all the events possible in a betting situation and then keep the winning slips to show how you got the money
At least that's how Paul William's says people do it
You loose a bit but not too much
Or you can open a gym or a laundrette or a coal business or ice cream van
Those are the more common ways I've heard about
The solicitor asks how you are paying and how you got the money when you buy a house I think it's a requirement. However there have been loads of tales of people buying a house and paying part in cash in the last few years. It's suits some people to get rid and others who are in debt get a bit of liquidity that thebanks do t know about but there needs to be trust for it to work

relax carry on

armabelle wrote: »

Is it possible to buy a house for cash in Ireland...not like bank transfer but in cash in 500 note euro bills? Or would you have to go through a bank?

Where exactly is the cash now? Under a mattress?

karenalot

I bought a house in cash last year but by bank transfer. My solicitor made me sign a form from Revenue to say that all the money was mine, was not from money laundering and that I agreed to it being investigated should revenue see fit.

I had a long history of bank savings though which I could prove. I wouldn't have fancied trying to explain that the cash was brought out from under my mattress.

Alun

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

armabelle

Bigus wrote: »

Yes you are perfectly entitled to buy a house for cash, however , to get good title to a house you need to engage a solicitor to transfer every thing to your name and register the title deeds.
Solicitors are obliged to notify the revenue of cash transactions , so if you can satisfy revenue that the cash is legit you would be fine , however , Revenue won't just take a good story and would need to see evidence of some tax paid or any vat due on this cash at various stages or proof that such taxes due abroad were also paid. IE payslips/ invoices / receipts for goods sold etc.

Secondly Most solicitors would refuse to handle that amount of cash on security grounds , but maybe could facilitate taking it and passing it over in instalments of smaller amounts.

The only alternative would be to hand over cash directly to the selller of the house but this would be very dangerous as who's to prove its still not their house after you paid for it.

This is one of the reasons people are tax compliant in Ireland because if you want to Own anything substantial ( including a car) you most ultimately prove that taxes were and are been paid or risk such asset being seized until with the burden of proof being on you and not the revenue.

There are various elements in society who for tax avoidance reasons therefore never own property, and remain mobile or get council houses , so that they are not worth persuing in the courts by revenue, as they don't have any assets to seize.

So if you want to own a house you have to pay your tax and be able to prove it, down the line.

But how would I prove over the course of my life all this? It is totally unreasonable to ask someone to prove that if they were putting aside a bit of cash every month for say 20 years in many different countries etc. I am just thinking that if I had actually done this - and I well could have - I would not be able to prove it. I mean, would revenue in all those countries give me proof if I ask... are they obliged to do so? would revenue here be obliged to if I now lived in Australia?

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

But how would I prove over the course of my life all this? It is totally unreasonable to ask someone to prove that if they were putting aside a bit of cash every month for say 20 years in many different countries etc. I am just thinking that if I had actually done this - and I well could have - I would not be able to prove it. I mean, would revenue in all those countries give me proof if I ask... are they obliged to do so? would revenue here be obliged to if I now lived in Australia?

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

armabelle

Alun wrote: »

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

like I said, my savings are in 5s and tens and a lot of coins

Atlantic Dawn

Alun wrote: »

Shortly there will be no euro notes bigger than €50 anyway, as the €100, €200 and €500 notes are being phased out, so for an average house you'd need a very big suitcase to carry it all in.

Yes it's crazy what's going on, the higher ups in governments around the world have their money in offshore trusts and shell companies offering them anonimity while the common man can't put his own cash in his mattress without risk of it being taken off him.

armabelle

L1011 wrote: »

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

yes but those accounts may have been opened and closed. I have had at least one bank account in each country I have lived.

Frynge

In all seriousness what you could do is use the cash to buy many small things and then sell these small things in batches totalling less than 10k and make sure to keep receipts of selling them, then claim that you built up you collection of small things over many years and that they held their value or possibly appreciated in value.

Gold coins could be an example of such small things.

But do not expect to be able to do it without being asked some tough questions.

And lastly, go on OP, tell us where you got the money.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

yes but those accounts may have been opened and closed. I have had at least one bank account in each country I have lived.

You can get records of those, records of the forex transactions used to get euro cash from them, and so on

There are limits of 10k in cash to enter the EU - did you break these?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/customs/leaflets/customs-excise-cash-controls.html

intheclouds

L1011 wrote: »

Its reasonable to assume anyone in this scenario will have used banks

Not really, Ive known a lot of people who have a mistrust of banks.

One guy in my last job had no bank account, no passport, no drivers licence etc...

armabelle

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes it's crazy what's going on, the higher ups in governments around the world have their money in offshore trusts and shell companies offering them anonimity while the common man can't put his own cash in his mattress without risk of it being taken off him.

yeah it is pretty messed up when you say it like that

L1011

intheclouds wrote: »

Not really, Ive known a lot of people who have a mistrust of banks.

One guy in my last job had no bank account, no passport, no drivers licence etc...

Was your last job being a member of the Ahern cabinet? (actually he did have a passport)

For every person who has a mistrust of banks there's someone who will get cleaned out by a burglar, fire, 'trusted' relative or end up dying with the mattress thrown out and nobody the wiser. Its pointless.

The Moldy Gowl

You are afraid your bank details will be hacked from you or are cynical of the big bad scary banksters taking your money.

So you leave a sizeable about of money just laying around the house. I guess over 30 grand at least?
You have more chance of that getting robbed than your online details.

Wtf. Just use a bank.


It's 2016, you are gonna have a nightmare proving where those funds came from no matter if they came from the local shop 20 years ago.

elastico

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Our solicitor would definitely refuse to deal with it. He told us a story of someone who was trying to buy a house with actual cash and how fast he ran away.

I think, if you could find a solicitor willing to handle the sale and a seller willing to take it, you'd need to be very clearly able to show where the cash came from to buy a house. Otherwise the anti-money laundering regs or similar would kick in in some form or other.

I don't see how your solicitor would care?

If I was selling a house and somebody asked me to pay in cash I would instruct them to bring the cash to their the local branch and deposit the funds to my account.

Its not my job to worry about where the cash came from and my solicitor works for me so not his problem either.

It would be highly risky to behave in this manner as you could lose all the cash if its robbed, and if it is legit its better have it in your own account and do a transfer.

L1011

elastico wrote: »

If I was selling a house and somebody asked me to pay in cash I would instruct them to bring the cash to their the local branch and deposit the funds to my account.

And Revenue would be on your doorstep the next morning asking where the cash came from. "I sold my house to this guy with no bank account" isn't going to fully extricate you from the problem.

spindex

armabelle wrote: »

like I said, my savings are in 5s and tens and a lot of coins

Can you take a picture of this pile of money and show it to us please ?

The Moldy Gowl

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Yes it's crazy what's going on, the higher ups in governments around the world have their money in offshore trusts and shell companies offering them anonimity while the common man can't put his own cash in his mattress without risk of it being taken off him.

Which is legal in the vast majority if cases. Nothing illegal about me investing in a fund in the Cayman Islands if I can prove the authenticy of my funds.

RustyNut

Id say most houses in Rathkeale were bought with cash.

armabelle

bubblypop wrote: »

If you saved up over a lifetime, & did live in 5 different countries, you would have to declare the money when you leave/enter countries.

Or, if you have your life savings in a few piggy banks, you could always just bring them to the bank & deposit them.

Yes you are right. Perhaps if I bring in a big wad at once I would have to declare it. But, I have used ATM's in the past to withdraw cash daily and I am allowed to walk into any airport in Europe with 10k in my pocket...maybe with my wife who another 10k in hers. This can add up over the years... a couple visits back home a couple of bank transfers a couple hundred bank withdrawls, What I mean is that I can't possible trace that and get proof unless I was purposefully going to save up and kept a record as I went. But it is like asking someone to crack open their life savings giant piggy bank and explain where each coin came from. Nobody could do that over a period of 20 years.

PhoenixParker

elastico wrote: »

I don't see how your solicitor would care?

If I was selling a house and somebody asked me to pay in cash I would instruct them to bring the cash to their the local branch and deposit the funds to my account.

Its not my job to worry about where the cash came from and my solicitor works for me so not his problem either.

It would be highly risky to behave in this manner as you could lose all the cash if its robbed, and if it is legit its better have it in your own account and do a transfer.

The solicitor would care because if the money was illegally obtained or otherwise untaxed income they would be an accessory to a crime under the money laundering regulations.

L1011

armabelle wrote: »

Yes you are right. Perhaps if I bring in a big wad at once I would have to declare it. But, I have used ATM's in the past to withdraw cash daily and I am allowed to walk into any airport in Europe with 10k in my pocket...maybe with my wife who another 10k in hers. This can add up over the years... a couple visits back home a couple of bank transfers a couple hundred bank withdrawls, What I mean is that I can't possible trace that and get proof unless I was purposefully going to save up and kept a record as I went. But it is like asking someone to crack open their life savings giant piggy bank and explain where each coin came from.

That's your problem, not Revenues. It would look like very deliberate evasion if you even started trying to explain down that route.

The Moldy Gowl

You were in your hole walking around airports with 10 k in your pocket.
No matter how utterly stupid your opinion on banks is, no one would do that.

PhoenixParker

armabelle wrote: »

Yes you are right. Perhaps if I bring in a big wad at once I would have to declare it. But, I have used ATM's in the past to withdraw cash daily and I am allowed to walk into any airport in Europe with 10k in my pocket...maybe with my wife who another 10k in hers. This can add up over the years... a couple visits back home a couple of bank transfers a couple hundred bank withdrawls, What I mean is that I can't possible trace that and get proof unless I was purposefully going to save up and kept a record as I went. But it is like asking someone to crack open their life savings giant piggy bank and explain where each coin came from. Nobody could do that over a period of 20 years.

If this was the case and the money was legally and lawfully obtained, then I think the recommended course of action would be to engage an accountant who would help you to build the paper trail showing a long term pattern of lawfully earned income exceeding spending. The paper trail might not be complete, but should be enough to show how the sum has been built up. You can contact old employers for records, document previous large purchases, show bank account statements and receipts etc.

Then once the money is lodged to an account, if there is a query as to its source you have documentation to show the revenue that the money is not the proceeds of crime or black market sales.

armabelle

The Moldy Gowl wrote: »

You are afraid your bank details will be hacked from you or are cynical of the big bad scary banksters taking your money.

So you leave a sizeable about of money just laying around the house. I guess over 30 grand at least?
You have more chance of that getting robbed than your online details.

Wtf. Just use a bank.


It's 2016, you are gonna have a nightmare proving where those funds came from no matter if they came from the local shop 20 years ago.

yes you are right but I just hate banks and that we have to depend on them like this. Surely a piggy bank is still a legal way to save money?

RustyNut

The Moldy Gowl wrote: »

You were in your hole walking around airports with 10 k in your pocket.
No matter how utterly stupid your opinion on banks is, no one would do that.

I brought 25k in cash to germany to buy a camper a few years ago.

dar100

L1011 wrote: »

Bank will raise hell if you suddenly turn up with 300k cash. Don't expect it to be available to transfer out any time quickly afterwards.



A solicitor, house vendor, etc does not have to give a reason to refuse to deal - even though it'll be obvious why.

I didn't say they did have to give a reason. I said if any individual was to question the money. the onus to prove is on them.