Port tunnel average speed cameras operational?

sk8board

Seems to be some chatter on local community pages in north Dublin that the cameras went live after midnight yesterday morning, but googling it I see nothing official whatsoever, or no reputable site.
Anyone?

coylemj

Is this for statistical purposes or will they fine you if your average over the whole trip is above the speed limit?

Stephen Gawking

Saw the message in question. It's in the form of a text message but it's just a spoof. Anyone who's seen it will spot the mistake straight away... that being said something really needs to be done as the level of speeding & standard of driving in the tunnel is deplorable.

sk8board

Yeh I figured it read a little like a spoof.
I use the tunnel every morning - I must say I'd be picking the m50 (I go to work via the tunnel and home all around the m50) all day long for average speed cameras before I'd do it in the tunnel. There's a few loons who tailgate in the tunnel, but otherwise it's all fine and the traffic level during the €10 times is minimal enough bar the usual trucks.

traco

Not a rumor - I mailed when I heard similar rumors early this as some of our lads use the tunnel so wanted to tell them there should be no messing. See below:

Thank you for your email.

I can confirm that speed cameras have been operational in Dublin Tunnel for some time and any matters relating to penalties for exceeding the 80kph speed limit is a matter for the Gardaí.

Yours sincerely,

**************

Customer Service & Operations Administrator

Egis Road and Tunnel Operation Ireland
Dublin Tunnel Control Building
East Wall Road
Dublin D03 NH33
Ireland

L1011

They are operational but the guards do nothing. Ever. There would be severe legal issues about using them for prosecutions

monument

L1011 wrote: »

They are operational but the guards do nothing. Ever. There would be severe legal issues about using them for prosecutions

Would it not be like the red light cameras? Although that seems vague it self.

I'm thinking there's little or no supporting legislation for fixed speed cameras of any kind?

L1011

monument wrote: »

Would it not be like the red light cameras? Although that seems vague it self.

I'm thinking there's little or no supporting legislation for fixed speed cameras of any kind?

The main issue is that they're operated by a private firm for their own uses - not a contractor like the spectra gosafe ones

ED E

L1011 wrote: »

The main issue is that they're operated by a private firm for their own uses - not a contractor like the spectra gosafe ones

Private CCTV may be used in prosecutions, these are not radar units, just camera at A and camera at B with no calibration requirement. Totally admissible in court.

L1011

ED E wrote: »

Private CCTV may be used in prosecutions, these are not radar units, just camera at A and camera at B with no calibration requirement. Totally admissible in court.

To prove speed it requires rather a lot more than CCTV. Two cameras at two points needs precision timing at the very least, which does require calibration

I couldn't see a single conviction from these standing up in court without legislation basically. If I'm blipped there it'll be going as far as I can before I run out of cash, which I wouldn't do with a proper capture.

sk8board

As I go through the tunnel each morning, it flashes up the reg numbers and their average speeds, just before you emerge at the Port side.
I've seen them work over many many miles on French motorway (ever notice those fast cars pulled in just before the toll gantries?), I can't see why it's so difficult on the m50 or port tunnel. All you're recording is the time of the day and the reg at both cameras, not the speed. The speed is a simple calculation.

beauf

sk8board wrote: »

Yeh I figured it read a little like a spoof.
I use the tunnel every morning - I must say I'd be picking the m50 (I go to work via the tunnel and home all around the m50) all day long for average speed cameras before I'd do it in the tunnel. There's a few loons who tailgate in the tunnel, but otherwise it's all fine and the traffic level during the €10 times is minimal enough bar the usual trucks.

In my limited experience, the trucks all tend to do the max limit in the tunnel almost never over it. Always stay left. In car, if you stay left and do less than the max you will have a truck on your bumper. If you go to the right lane, most cars care doing over the max limit. I've never seen it enforced.

But the same is true of the M50 for the most part, most of the traffic is over the limit, off peak. Rarely enforced. Driving standard on the M50 is much worse though, more dangerous. Fix that before worrying about the tunnel.

sk8board

beauf wrote: »

Driving standard on the M50 is much worse though, more dangerous. Fix that before worrying about the tunnel.

My thoughts exactly.
I dont remember the tunnel ever being closed at 8am, maybe once or twice in 3 years I'm using it, but I can't actually remember a specific case.
There's a couple of cases of 'breakdown' or 'truck on fire'. Very little.

As for the m50 the amount of rear-end accidents due to late breaking on the one hand and tailgating on the other, is rediculous. It's just about every 2nd day in, both direction.

beauf

Seems to be daily accidents on the M50 now, often a couple in the same day. Its become normal.

Same with enforcement. Its got the point where seeing a Garda, pull over someone for bad driving, speeding etc. is a very rare sight.

Perhaps they have stats to say other wise. But their visibility to me is none existent. They need to raise their profile. Thats true of the whole city not just the M50.

ED E

L1011 wrote: »

To prove speed it requires rather a lot more than CCTV. Two cameras at two points needs precision timing at the very least, which does require calibration

I couldn't see a single conviction from these standing up in court without legislation basically. If I'm blipped there it'll be going as far as I can before I run out of cash, which I wouldn't do with a proper capture.

Hardly:

4.5km tunnel, 80kph limit.

Driving exactly the limit: 3m 22s

Driving significantly over the limit(85kph): 3m 10s
Driving significantly over the limit(87kph): 3m 6s

So if you set a trigger threshold at 3m 6s then even being off by 4 full seconds still has a definite speeding offence. Coarse accuracy like that is trivial.

L1011

ED E wrote: »

Hardly:

4.5km tunnel, 80kph limit.

Driving exactly the limit: 3m 22s

Driving significantly over the limit(85kph): 3m 10s
Driving significantly over the limit(87kph): 3m 6s

So if you set a trigger threshold at 3m 6s then even being off by 4 full seconds still has a definite speeding offence. Coarse accuracy like that is trivial.

Coarse accuracy isn't enough if you can't prove that the timing is right to begin with.

I'm pretty certain averaging speed cameras aren't even covered in legislation here anyway. The issue that the operators are neither the Gardai or Spectra/Gosafe is still there too.

prinzeugen

L1011 wrote: »

Coarse accuracy isn't enough if you can't prove that the timing is right to begin with.

I'm pretty certain averaging speed cameras aren't even covered in legislation here anyway. The issue that the operators are neither the Gardai or Spectra/Gosafe is still there too.

I worked in the tunnel on the tolls when it first opened. There is a Garda on duty in the control room 24/7.

On more than one occasion we got told to hold a southbound car that was speeding till the Garda jeep arrived (again one always on duty).

At the time, speeding drivers in the tunnel were done for careless/dangerous driving rather than given a ticket.

The reason being that if you lost control, you were taking a few others with you. There are no fields for you to land in.

kavanada

On more than one occasion we got told to hold a southbound car that was speeding till the Garda jeep arrived (again one always on duty).

Sorry, but I'll call BS on that. No civvy could detain you like that. It's different if the responding unit crosses your path as you're driving away but the barrier staff aren't allowed detain you like that.
Think about it, 20 seconds? 10 minutes? What if all units are busy? Come on.

Also, on a side note, what on earth is a fully trained up Garda doing sitting in the control room for?? No need as he's apparently not there to arrest you for speeding anyway and the camera operator can call the Gardaí and give any pertinent info.

Big waste of manpower.

L1011

Theres a total difference between a member of AGS judging careless driving and a privately owned uncertified average speed camera system being used. No comparison

kavanada

@L1011:- Can't work out if you're post is directed at me.

What I mean by my point is I wouldn't think Jane from the kiosk saying my manager phoned to say I can't let you through because they say you were speeding would be legal.

Fine, record away and log the speeding vehicles details but to simply stop the driver from going through for, again, 20 secs, 10 minutes, is not right in any way.

Also, is that Guard shift still in place, does anyone know? I'd be surprised if it still is to this day.

As a new tunnel, I can see one being stationed for a couple of months as a belts and braces approach but it'd be a shocking waste of money and resources to have 3 Gardaí there throughout the day many years on.
Or worse, 2 Guards on overtime!

ted1

L1011 wrote: »

To prove speed it requires rather a lot more than CCTV. Two cameras at two points needs precision timing at the very least, which does require calibration

I couldn't see a single conviction from these standing up in court without legislation basically. If I'm blipped there it'll be going as far as I can before I run out of cash, which I wouldn't do with a proper capture.

Not much calibration , they just need to sync to a gps clock

L1011

ted1 wrote: »

Not much calibration , they just need to sync to a gps clock

And prove synchronisation occured correctly. Not that easy.

I've an NTP controlled clock system in work - they're all synced to a single time source, however that doesn't stop some of them simply not syncing occasionally.

ted1

L1011 wrote: »

And prove synchronisation occured correctly. Not that easy.

I've an NTP controlled clock system in work - they're all synced to a single time source, however that doesn't stop some of them simply not syncing occasionally.

And I have several GPS synced SCADA units around the country that are all synced and verified. It is simple

aliveandkicking

kavanada wrote: »

Also, is that Guard shift still in place, does anyone know? I'd be surprised if it still is to this day.

As a new tunnel, I can see one being stationed for a couple of months as a belts and braces approach but it'd be a shocking waste of money and resources to have 3 Gardaí there throughout the day many years on.
Or worse, 2 Guards on overtime!

The Garda Traffic Corps now have their own control room based in Dublin Castle. This has access to all the DCC traffic cameras covering DCC, DLR, Fingal & M50 regions, SDCCs cameras for their region and also Port Tunnel cameras. There is always a Garda on duty in the control room so they have eyes on the roads at all times. If you look at the @gardatraffic twitter page they posted photos from the control room during Easter Sunday.

GM228

aliveandkicking wrote: »

If you look at the @gardatraffic twitter page they posted photos from the control room during Easter Sunday.

This one?

Is it specifically for the Traffic Corps, or a general control room?

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/714079068036145157

I doubt it's always so heavily manned.

L1011

ted1 wrote: »

And I have several GPS synced SCADA units around the country that are all synced and verified. It is simple

I'd be willing to bet that the tunnel system likely aren't even synced, let alone verified to any safe level

I would imagine average speed cameras would not stand up in court without legislation anyway.

kavanada

@ aliveandkicking:- Cheers. That's understandable and far more practical as there'd be plenty of Gardaí there anyway.

It was the thought of 3 Gardaí having to report to the port tunnel to sit and wait for a speeder or over-taker just so they can decide what's dangerous driving or not, etc.

prinzeugen

kavanada wrote: »

On more than one occasion we got told to hold a southbound car that was speeding till the Garda jeep arrived (again one always on duty).

Sorry, but I'll call BS on that. No civvy could detain you like that. .

Well we did it. Same with over height trucks etc. if I remember right there was a by law (same as clampers)..

It was years ago..

prinzeugen

L1011 wrote: »

I'd be willing to bet that the tunnel system likely aren't even synced, let alone verified to any safe level

I would imagine average speed cameras would not stand up in court without legislation anyway.

SCADA is what is (was) in the tunnel.

L1011

SCADA is a protocol. Nothing more.

ted1

L1011 wrote: »

SCADA is a protocol. Nothing more.

no SCADA is not a protocol. Various protocols are used for SCADA.
I suggest before you make such stupid comments that you educate yourself

L1011

ted1 wrote: »

no SCADA is not a protocol. Various protocols are used for SCADA.
I suggest before you make such stupid comments that you educate yourself

How would you simplify it to explain, quickly, that it doesn't mean that the cameras are automatically GPS synced and verified just because your kit is, then?

Without getting insulting.

Cookie_Monster

everytime i turn my garmin on it sync via GPS and timing is set, regardless of location. it's not difficult to sync time off GPS and that's as accurate as you are going to get.

L1011

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

everytime i turn my garmin on it sync via GPS and timing is set, regardless of location. it's not difficult to sync time off GPS and that's as accurate as you are going to get.

For an average speed system, as exists in other countries, you need to prove beyond all doubt that the synchronisation actually happened and that the time on the photos is actually synchronised.

That is likely beyond the capabilities of the existing system. Add to that the problem that average speed cameras are not covered in any legislation (whereas radar/laser/lidar systems are) and you've got no prosecutions going to hold.

Handsome Brute

beauf wrote: »

Seems to be daily accidents on the M50 now, often a couple in the same day. Its become normal.

Same with enforcement. Its got the point where seeing a Garda, pull over someone for bad driving, speeding etc. is a very rare sight.

Perhaps they have stats to say other wise. But their visibility to me is none existent. They need to raise their profile. Thats true of the whole city not just the M50.

People don't know how to use the M50! If they drove on the Autobhan they would last about 2 minutes! Proper enforcement of not staying on the middle lane for the WHOLE duration of your journey and average speed enforcement would do wonders for that motorway! The UK have successfully started a campaign to stop middle lane hogging as it upsets the general flow and its working from what I can see!

Charles Babbage

It is indicative of the laziness of legislators in this country, who have passed no legislation for several months at this stage, that the necessary rules were not put in place for average speed enforcement when this tunnel opened.
They should also have an automatic camera enforced fine for ****s who can't be bothered to put on their lights.

Carawaystick

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

everytime i turn my garmin on it sync via GPS and timing is set, regardless of location. it's not difficult to sync time off GPS and that's as accurate as you are going to get.

Hard to receive a signal form a global positioning satellite when you're deep under the ground though.

ED E

Carawaystick wrote: »

Hard to receive a signal form a global positioning satellite when you're deep under the ground though.

*resists resorting to expletives*

The cameras are on gantries. Outside. In the open air.

L1011

ED E wrote: »

*resists resorting to expletives*

The cameras are on gantries. Outside. In the open air.

Not the ones that are used to display speeds on the boards inside the tunnel, which is what everyone has been talking about.

Not that its relevant, as they would be using a single GPS timing unit in this hypothetical scenario, which would have an antenna, above ground.

Carawaystick

L1011 wrote: »

Not the ones that are used to display speeds on the boards inside the tunnel, which is what everyone has been talking about.

Not that its relevant, as they would be using a single GPS timing unit in this hypothetical scenario, which would have an antenna, above ground.

Or they could use ntp, and get a signal from Trinity College.

Alun

Carawaystick wrote: »

Or they could use ntp, and get a signal from Trinity College.

Even commercially available stand-alone GPS based time servers use NTP for clients to synchronize with them, it isn't unique to synchronizing time over the Internet. Usually the time servers themselves are also connected to one or more Internet based NTP servers to act as a sanity check and potential backup in case the GPS receiver fails.