College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

LXFlyer

Bambi wrote: »

Take a walk down Parnell Square, although I don't spend extended periods watching what happens, as that would be a weird thing for a commuter like myself to do, but I note that there will be unmanned buses parked there at all points of the day.

But again that is between individual trips - presumably with a driver change at the same time. Not a long layover - they happen back in the depots.

The point is that they then move on to operate the next outbound trip - they in all likelihood will be replaced pretty much straight away by the next bus.

It's a fact of life in any transport operation - buses don't simply arrive and go straight away - they run to a timetable and have recovery time (resilience) built into it.

It's exactly the same on the railways and with airlines.

For example a bus route may have a 15 minute frequency but the scheduled end to end time could be 50-55 minutes, with 5-10 minutes recovery depending upon the time of day. That schedule could mean buses wait at the terminus for 5-10 minutes depending on traffic before departing on their next journey.

People just assume buses sit there for hours when in fact they're constantly moving on.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Again, you're talking about the Bachelor's Walk Traffic Plan (or whatever its called), not the College Green Plaza Plan. Which this thread is about.

But that plan is happening because of the bus routes planned to be diverted due to the College Green plan.

There is going to inevitably be some crossover as a result.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

But that plan is happening because of the bus routes planned to be diverted due to the College Green plan.

There is going to inevitably be some crossover as a result.

Of course there is. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about one-off posts complaining solely about the Bachelors Walk Plan.

KD345

MJohnston wrote: »

Again, you're talking about the Bachelor's Walk Traffic Plan (or whatever its called), not the College Green Plaza Plan. Which this thread is about.

If you want to dismiss my concerns because this thread is called College Green Plaza, that's fine. However, the fact remains that as a consequence of the College Green Plaza we are going to see new traffic measures introduced on North Quays and the re-routing of key bus routes. I believe discussing the impacts of this plaza is very relevant here, in fact, on the first few pages of this thread you too discuss traffic problems in the surrounding areas. My questions and comments are no different to yours just because you might not agree with them. The place where current College Green commuters will suffer most (Bachelors Walk) happens to be a different street but does not make it any less connected to this thread.

lawred2

KD345 wrote: »

Have you viewed the plans for the north quays? Private motorists are losing a lane of traffic towards O'Connell Bridge. There will be a reduction in how many cars can pass through the O'Connell Bridge junction due to frequent trams, and there will be almost 200 extra Dublin Buses on the quays each morning.

All good then

MJohnston

KD345 wrote: »

If you want to dismiss my concerns because this thread is called College Green Plaza, that's fine. However, the fact remains that as a consequence of the College Green Plaza we are going to see new traffic measures introduced on North Quays and the re-routing of key bus routes. I believe discussing the impacts of this plaza is very relevant here, in fact, on the first few pages of this thread you too discuss traffic problems in the surrounding areas. My questions and comments are no different to yours just because you might not agree with them. The place where current College Green commuters will suffer most (Bachelors Walk) happens to be a different street but does not make it any less connected to this thread.

I'm not dismissing your concerns, as you say I've already expressed similar on this thread. I'm simply talking about the one off posts, and you happened to reply to my reply about that.

seamus

KD345 wrote: »

If you want to dismiss my concerns because this thread is called College Green Plaza, that's fine. However, the fact remains that as a consequence of the College Green Plaza we are going to see new traffic measures introduced on North Quays and the re-routing of key bus routes.

So these are very valid concerns, but for the most part these concerns seem mostly based on the idea that sending more busses up the quays and halving the space for cars is going to mean that traffic will be twice as bad as it was before.

But that's not how it works in reality. People aren't stupid. Traffic is self-routing to select the optimal route to their destination.

One opponent to the quays route, for example, tried to claim that someone used to using the quays to commute would now have a 2km detour to get from point A on the quays to point B on the quays to continue their commute.

The planner pointed out that anyone with half a brain who was trying to get to point B, wouldn't go to point A first. Instead they would take an alternative route where the overall detour would be no more than a couple of hundred metres.

So too with the Plaza. If you are used to using Dame Street as your route to OCS, you would be a fool to continue doing so and taking a convoluted detour around the quays to get there. Like any sane person you will alter your entire route and approach OCS from the east or west rather than the south. And so will the rest of the traffic.

But I'm not going to claim these measures aren't anti-car. They are, absolutely. Because private vehicular traffic has no place in a busy city centre.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

But again that is between individual trips - presumably with a driver change at the same time. Not a long layover - they happen back in the depots.

For example a bus route may have a 15 minute frequency but the scheduled end to end time could be 50-55 minutes, with 5-10 minutes recovery depending upon the time of day. That schedule could mean buses wait at the terminus for 5-10 minutes depending on traffic before departing on their next journey.

People just assume buses sit there for hours when in fact they're constantly moving on.

Nah, you'll see buses parked up and unattended at bus stops in parnell square for extended periods, not 5-10 minutes

loyatemu

Bambi wrote: »

Nah, you'll see buses parked up and unattended at bus stops in parnell square for extended periods, not 5-10 minutes

and even if it's not the same buses, the effect is the same - there's a line of buses parked there all day long. Hopefully that's not what we'll see at College Green.

monument

MJohnston wrote: »

Again, you're talking about the Bachelor's Walk Traffic Plan (or whatever its called), not the College Green Plaza Plan. Which this thread is about.

They are interlinked and some discussion about both is fine in this thread.

But more than a little bit should go to the new bus lanes thread,

-- moderator

dashcamdanny

loyatemu wrote: »

and even if it's not the same buses, the effect is the same - there's a line of buses parked there all day long. Hopefully that's not what we'll see at College Green.

I cant see how it will be avoided. The 49 currently sits on the new lues line on Pierce street.

Will fleet street and Poolbeg street still be used? If so, how will the buses get through to Dame street quickly? If they cant, the terminus will have to be moved to the other side of the plaza. Has a plan been released yet on this?

Devilman40k

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I cant see how it will be avoided. The 49 currently sits on the new lues line on Pierce street.

Will fleet street and Poolbeg street still be used? If so, how will the buses get through to Dame street quickly? If they cant, the terminus will have to be moved to the other side of the plaza. Has a plan been released yet on this?

Routes 54a,150, 49 (which terminate at Fleet Street and Pearse Street) will all terminate on the west side of the plaza at the bus turnaround point. Any routes that use Fleet St e.g 77a, 56a will be rerouted to the quays via Winetavern Street to Rosie Hackett bridge and back to route

prinzeugen

MJohnston wrote: »

Bizarre argument - disabled drivers, like all others, aren't allowed through this area at present for the vast majority of the day.

Not just disabled drivers. It is also disabled bus users.

Its all very well saying "route xx bus this way and xx bus down that street" but lots of you are forgetting the whole point of public transport.

It is a selfish agenda by a crowd that want to turn Dublin into a carbon copy of Amsterdam or some other place without giving a though to the people of Dublin.

MJohnston

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not just disabled drivers. It is also disabled bus users.

Its all very well saying "route xx bus this way and xx bus down that street" but lots of you are forgetting the whole point of public transport.

It is a selfish agenda by a crowd that want to turn Dublin into a carbon copy of Amsterdam or some other place without giving a though to the people of Dublin.

The buses will still go where they have been going, and people using those buses won't be stranded without a service they once had.

Ultimately, I believe the Plaza plan cannot go ahead without the more ambitious Quays plans, and a massive network review to take into account the plaza itself as well as the addition of BXD.

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is a selfish agenda by a crowd that want to turn Dublin into a carbon copy of Amsterdam or some other place without giving a though to the people of Dublin.

If Amsterdams model works better for them then our model works for us then why not give a try.

LXFlyer

loyatemu wrote: »

and even if it's not the same buses, the effect is the same - there's a line of buses parked there all day long. Hopefully that's not what we'll see at College Green.

Again - that is a fact of life of running a public transport operation that you seem to be incapable of grasping.

The bus stand will be on Dame St.

Dyr

lxflyer wrote: »

Again - that is a fact of life of running a public transport operation that you seem to be incapable of grasping.

The bus stand will be on Dame St.

Nah its a fact of life when most of the city is reliant on buses for public transport and those buses are being run by a monolithic semi state company

No matter what we try do to improve the city centre dublin bus will be a problem until we have alternative modes of transport

AndrewJRenko

prinzeugen wrote: »

Not just disabled drivers. It is also disabled bus users.

Its all very well saying "route xx bus this way and xx bus down that street" but lots of you are forgetting the whole point of public transport.

It is a selfish agenda by a crowd that want to turn Dublin into a carbon copy of Amsterdam or some other place without giving a though to the people of Dublin.

Don't forget the disabled Luas users, who will have immediate access to College Green using the most accessible (in disability terms) transport service in the country.

Dyr

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't forget the disabled Luas users, who will have immediate access to College Green using the most accessible (in disability terms) transport service in the country.

But what about disabled people who want to use their car?
And all the other people who want to use their car but mostly just care about disabled people who want to use their car?

cgcsb

Why are people banging on about disabled motorists? Has it not already been made clear that DCC has done just about everything to maintain access to car parks. The same car parks will still be accessible, nothing will change in that regard. Nobody can park on college green as it stands.

AndrewJRenko

Bambi wrote: »

But what about disabled people who want to use their car?
And all the other people who want to use their car but mostly just care about disabled people who want to use their car?

Then they go a slightly longer way round. Will that kill them?

There is no parking for anyone on College Green, so the pedestrianisation won't make a jot of difference to disabled drivers.

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

Why are people banging on about disabled motorists? Has it not already been made clear that DCC has done just about everything to maintain access to car parks. The same car parks will still be accessible, nothing will change in that regard. Nobody can park on college green as it stands.

Free disabled parking is on street, don't have to use a designated disabled space either. There are disabled spaces in car parks but the charge is the same as for anyone else.

And agreed, there is no parking Dame Street/College Green surrounds as it stands anyway, for anyone.

alanc1976

I welcome the major enhancement of College Green but it will be a disaster if the issues it raises are not addressed properly.
What good European Cities like Amsterdam do is to integrate every thing at a city level with people at the centre of the model. To just implement change brute force has been tried but failed.

This plan can not succeed if its not integrate with the other plans for Dublin.

e.g. At the moment the central bank bus stops are probably the most popular drop off point for all of the Dublin Bus routes that use it. Most of these routes will be rerouted and the proposed alternative to Central Bank will be Bachelors Walk for the majority of Dublin Bus users currently using Central bank.
This is not a minor issue as it is not an enhancement. The plaza will be seen as the cause of a lot of grief and inconvenience and its completely predictable.
The only way to prevent this is to ask bus users what they want and match the plans to the needs of the public.

A complete vision for Dublin is needed which must deliver enhanced public spaces as well as enhanced public transport.
The danger here is that this project will damage public transport (moving routes away from where people want to travel and removing continuous bus lane crossing O'connell bridge). Albeit the Luas will be a major benefit to some.

Dyr

alanc1976 wrote: »

e.g. At the moment the central bank bus stops are probably the most popular drop off point for all of the Dublin Bus routes that use it. Most of these routes will be rerouted and the proposed alternative to Central Bank will be Bachelors Walk for the majority of Dublin Bus users currently using Central bank.
This is not a minor issue as it is not an enhancement. The plaza will be seen as the cause of a lot of grief and inconvenience and its completely predictable.
The only way to prevent this is to ask bus users what they want and match the plans to the needs of the public..

Bachelors walk is too narrow for the amount of buses stopping on it right now, pushing more buses down it will make things worse. If they even pulled all the advertising sandwich boards that litter the pavement that would help.

You're going to run into this over and over again in the city centre, most of the footpaths are too narrow as they are, and are being winnowed down further by new loading bays and street furniture and road works.

They can't accommodate busy bus stops

buffalo

prinzeugen wrote: »

It is a selfish agenda by a crowd that want to turn Dublin into a carbon copy of Amsterdam or some other place without giving a though to the people of Dublin.

Do you mean the people who want to give Dublin back to the people of Dublin?

The only selfishness I see on display are businesses and associations like the IPA who (understandably) are objecting because their carparks will potentially be affected*, or people who don't understand that if you allow the 1m+ people living in Dublin to drive their cars into the city centre, it's going to be congested and unpleasant for anyone else.

For Dublin society as a whole, the changes in the city are only positive.


*even after the designers bend over backwards to maintain access

I love Sean nos

Bambi wrote: »

And all the other people who want to use their car but mostly just care about disabled people who want to use their car?

alanc1976

There is also a very large proportion of people who have reduced mobility e.g. Elderly or pregnant women or even someone with a buggy or walking stick who do not consider themselves disabled.
Its not reasonably to expect anyone in this category to provide their own transport (car) and public transport must be designed with these people in mind.
That's why I am worried about relocating bus routes from Dame steeet to bachelors walk
It's not a very appealing detour for anyone.

Mobility improvements will really depend on the quality of public transport and not the private car.
Buses need to bring people to where they want to go.

I love Sean nos

cgcsb wrote: »

Why are people banging on about disabled motorists? Has it not already been made clear that DCC has done just about everything to maintain access to car parks. The same car parks will still be accessible, nothing will change in that regard. Nobody can park on college green as it stands.

Because "What about the elderly and the disabled?" is the transport equivalent of:

bk

alanc1976 wrote: »

There is also a very large proportion of people who have reduced mobility e.g. Elderly or pregnant women or even someone with a buggy or walking stick who do not consider themselves disabled.

As a person who pushes a buggy on public transport every few days, I can't wait for these changes.

1) Luas is BY FAR the easiest form of public transport to bring a buggy on. There is no limit on the number of buggies/wheelchairs that can go on Luas, unlike buses and you can just wheel the buggy straight on and off due to the platform being flush and level with the tram. Absolutely fantastic and it will be great that we will have another line going through our city.

2) Pushing a buggy around the city center is a nightmare (but still doable) due to how overcrowded and narrow our footpaths are and how broken up they are. The new wider footpaths and repaired surface coming with the cross city project and the College Green Plaza are a god send, I can't wait for it to complete.

3) Pushing a buggy over the cobblestones in Temple Bar is slightly annoying, but still easily doable, I do it quiet a bit. It won't be a problem on this plaza, which will be a much smaller area then Temple Bar. And having a lovely new square for me and my child to enjoy concerts, etc. will be greatly appreciated.

So yes, me and the children all greatly appreciate these positive improvements for our city, thank you very much for your concern! :rolleyes:

trellheim

Would a tunnel under the plaza for buses help it could be built at the same time as the plaza

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

Would a tunnel under the plaza for buses help it could be built at the same time as the plaza

It would be entirely unfeasible, so expensive, and impractical (yes, that's a synonym for unfeasible, but it bears stating twice).

strandroad

alanc1976 wrote: »

The only way to prevent this is to ask bus users what they want and match the plans to the needs of the public.

Bus users will tell you that they want buses back on Grafton St to get to the shops...

prinzeugen

trellheim wrote: »

Would a tunnel under the plaza for buses help it could be built at the same time as the plaza

There was a similar thing in a German town that I visited (if circling 3 times over the town in a plane counts as a visit) Was near RAF Larbruch. Single deckers however.

prinzeugen

Deedsie wrote: »

Unlike car drivers, bus users don't expect or feel entitled to be driven door to door. They have to walk to the bus stop initially.

The average length of a car journey in Ireland... 2km

Any proof its 2km?

And if I get on a bus that is going to the city centre, I expect it to go there not pass a mile away.

cgcsb

alanc1976 wrote: »

There is also a very large proportion of people who have reduced mobility e.g. Elderly or pregnant women or even someone with a buggy or walking stick who do not consider themselves disabled.
Its not reasonably to expect anyone in this category to provide their own transport (car) and public transport must be designed with these people in mind.
That's why I am worried about relocating bus routes from Dame steeet to bachelors walk
It's not a very appealing detour for anyone.

Mobility improvements will really depend on the quality of public transport and not the private car.
Buses need to bring people to where they want to go.

Getting on and off the bus outside the Starbucks/Costa on college green at present is a trial for even the most able bodied, I can't imagine that situation will dissimprove.

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

Would a tunnel under the plaza for buses help it could be built at the same time as the plaza

It would require money, the Irish state will avoid spending money on infrastructure(especially in relation to public transport and especially in relation to the capital) until an event forces it, like the DART line falling into the Irish Sea a few years ago for example.

prinzeugen

Deedsie wrote: »

I would post the proof but every time I have disproved your nonsense in the past you skulk away and ignore and come back with more nonsense when the thread has moved on. No point engaging in discussion with someone like that.

So pass

In other words you dont discuss with anyone that is not pro-cycle, pro green, Vegan etc.

Here is a live webcam from Plattling in Germany.

http://webcam.deg.net/?a=showcam&w=showliveimage2&o=obsp

A large town that put the traffic underground and only buses are allowed on the surface.

Wee Fountain, tables and chairs and all.. The vision for College Green.

Save that link.. Because you will never see a person outside. Passing people yes but that is it.

They have Christmas markets that nobody attends and like college green it is in the shade most of the time.

prinzeugen

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Don't forget the disabled Luas users, who will have immediate access to College Green using the most accessible (in disability terms) transport service in the country.

Only if they live on a Luas line. The majority of the population of Dublin do not live on a Luas or Dart/Railway line.

prinzeugen

Deedsie wrote: »

I would post the proof but every time I have disproved your nonsense in the past you skulk away and ignore and come back with more nonsense when the thread has moved on. No point engaging in discussion with someone like that.

So pass

buffalo wrote: »

Do you mean the people who want to give Dublin back to the people of Dublin?

The only selfishness I see on display are businesses and associations like the IPA who (understandably) are objecting because their carparks will potentially be affected*, or people who don't understand that if you allow the 1m+ people living in Dublin to drive their cars into the city centre, it's going to be congested and unpleasant for anyone else.

For Dublin society as a whole, the changes in the city are only positive.


*even after the designers bend over backwards to maintain access

It is not just about car drivers. Bus users are going to be screwed by this plan.

You have a hatred of cars.. we get that. I am talking about ALL disabled users be it car or bus users.

buffalo

prinzeugen wrote: »

You have a hatred of cars.. we get that. I am talking about ALL disabled users be it car or bus users.

If that's directed at me, I don't have a hatred of cars, I just recognise there's a time and a place for them. Today I cycled, walked, and used the Luas and car to get around - everything has its place.

trellheim

It would be entirely unfeasible, so expensive, and impractical (yes, that's a synonym for unfeasible, but it bears stating twice).

Expensive ? Perhaps - but infeasible ? No .

Cut-and-cover - you get your plaza, buses continue underneath.

prinzeugen

buffalo wrote: »

If that's directed at me, I don't have a hatred of cars, I just recognise there's a time and a place for them. Today I cycled, walked, and used the Luas and car to get around - everything has its place.

Copy and paste error..

alanc1976

bk wrote: »

As a person who pushes a buggy on public transport every few days, I can't wait for these changes.

1) Luas is BY FAR the easiest form of public transport to bring a buggy on. There is no limit on the number of buggies/wheelchairs that can go on Luas, unlike buses and you can just wheel the buggy straight on and off due to the platform being flush and level with the tram. Absolutely fantastic and it will be great that we will have another line going through our city.

2) Pushing a buggy around the city center is a nightmare (but still doable) due to how overcrowded and narrow our footpaths are and how broken up they are. The new wider footpaths and repaired surface coming with the cross city project and the College Green Plaza are a god send, I can't wait for it to complete.

3) Pushing a buggy over the cobblestones in Temple Bar is slightly annoying, but still easily doable, I do it quiet a bit. It won't be a problem on this plaza, which will be a much smaller area then Temple Bar. And having a lovely new square for me and my child to enjoy concerts, etc. will be greatly appreciated.

So yes, me and the children all greatly appreciate these positive improvements for our city, thank you very much for your concern! :rolleyes:

That's fantastic for those on the LUAS line and a very positive addition to our public transport system however my concern is for the much larger amount of people that will be inconvenienced by the removal of bus services from the grafton street area which will more than cancel out the benefits of LUAS.
The overall net effect on public transport will be negative and that's a major problem that you don't seem to care about since you will be in the minority that benefits.

MJohnston

trellheim wrote: »

Expensive ? Perhaps - but infeasible ? No .

Cut-and-cover - you get your plaza, buses continue underneath.

Aye, and where's the space for the necessary inclines? Get your crayons out, you'll see there's not enough room to do this without subsumong half of the surrounding streets too.

dazberry

trellheim wrote: »

Expensive ? Perhaps - but infeasible ? No .

Cut-and-cover - you get your plaza, buses continue underneath.

Even if it wasn't a through route, but as set down and pickup point for some of the routes under the plaza it might be a good use of space. With only a finite amount of road space and the crayons being well worn we really need to start looking at things in three dimensions.

As things stand with the proposed alternatives I can't see all the cross city routes being viable after the plaza is put in place either, we may have to split and reattach routes in a different fashion that loop in and out of town without crossing the Liffey, maybe coming in west and then going south for instance. Might help bus-jestion at choke points but dis-improving the interchange?

I'm not overly sold on the plaza either, it seems to have a very specific use case for "events", but given it is enclosed by mostly banks and clothes shops I would have rather seen more pedestrianisation around areas that have more bars and restaurants, like that old chestnut South William St., regardless of our inclement weather and on street begging.

D.

bk

alanc1976 wrote: »

That's fantastic for those on the LUAS line and a very positive addition to our public transport system however my concern is for the much larger amount of people that will be inconvenienced by the removal of bus services from the grafton street area which will more than cancel out the benefits of LUAS.

Disabled users can get a bus close to one of the Luas stations outside the core city and change onto the Luas to bring them into this area if they like.

Remember seriously disabled people get free travel, so they can easily mix and match different forms of transport.

We really need to move away from the old Irish idea of a bus from right outside your door, to the front door of the shop. It really doesn't make for an effective public transport network.

We need better integrated ticketing, luckily elderly and disabled people already enjoy this benefit with the free travel pass.

alanc1976 wrote: »

The overall net effect on public transport will be negative and that's a major problem that you don't seem to care about since you will be in the minority that benefits.

Err.. Trams carry almost twice as many passengers as buses do on a given route. This all will have a very positive effect on public transport.

I also notice that you have ignored my point that this project is also resulting in much wider footpaths, repaired surfaces and improved pedestrian priority, all of which will be a fantastic benefit to the elderly and disabled!

trellheim wrote: »

Expensive ? Perhaps - but infeasible ? No .

Cut-and-cover - you get your plaza, buses continue underneath.

I've seen it been done quiet a bit in Poland, such as in front of the beach in Sopot. It is pretty cool.

However I believe it would be much harder to do here.

In Poland they only use single decker buses and for instance this underpass is just over a straight road.

We on the other hand have double decker buses, which would require going much deeper tunnel and thus much longer approach ramps. I wouldn't be so sure you could even fit a sufficient long approach ramp before the Liffey on Westmorland Street.

Then you have the fact that it is on a 45 degree angle complicating things.

Add to all that the historic nature of the area and the likeliness of hitting underground basements of Trinity College and College Green on and the little detail of building a cut and cover tunnel next to a river!!!

I think you would quickly end up with a Boston style big dig, rather then a quick and cheap cut and cover.

If we are going underground, better to just build the bloody Metro North and DART underground.

dazberry wrote: »

Even if it wasn't a through route, but as set down and pickup point for some of the routes under the plaza it might be a good use of space. With only a finite amount of road space and the crayons being well worn we really need to start looking at things in three dimensions.

I generally agree that we need to go underground and that is why we should be building DU and MN.

However we also still have plenty of potential above ground. We just have to be brave and use the road space more efficiently. And that means banning cars from the core city center and given the road space over to buses.

Where buses are reaching capacity then replace them with Luas lines, that has twice again the amount of capacity as the bus.

And of course go underground with MN and DU and extensions of those.

Stephen15

trellheim wrote: »

Expensive ? Perhaps - but infeasible ? No .

Cut-and-cover - you get your plaza, buses continue underneath.

That means you would have to dig under the new luas line causing even more distruption and meaning it wouldnt be able to open for another 3 or 4 years riddiculous idea.

alanc1976

bk wrote: »

Err.. Trams carry almost twice as many passengers as buses do on a given route. This all will have a very positive effect on public transport.

Err... do the math
One tram line will benefit
15 or 16 bus routes will be diverted

Overall net effect is still negative!

Consonata

alanc1976 wrote: »

Err... do the math
One tram line will benefit
15 or 16 bus routes will be diverted

Overall net effect is still negative!

You're still treating 1 bus and 1 tram as being equal by your logic.

Trams carrying twice as many passengers at a higher frequency means that there will be a net benefit for public transport in the city.

bk

alanc1976 wrote: »

Err... do the math
One tram line will benefit
15 or 16 bus routes will be diverted

Overall net effect is still negative!

I am!

Trams have almost twice the total capacity per lane as a bus lane. It is why we build such expensive Tram lines, they can carry far more people.

If they didn't then we wouldn't be wasting hundreds of millions building expensive tram lines! We would instead put the money into more buses.

You really need to move away from the idea of door to door buses and instead move to the modern concept of a highly integrated public transport networks. Buses feeding into higher capacity, higher frequency Metro's, Trains and Trams.

This is the way it is done in most European cities and it is the way we are very slowly moving towards.

It really is the only sensible way to deal with a massively congested city that is growing even larger.