College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

alanc1976

bk wrote: »

I am!

Trams have almost twice the total capacity per lane as a bus lane. It is why we build such expensive Tram lines, they can carry far more people.

If they didn't then we wouldn't be wasting hundreds of millions building expensive tram lines! We would instead put the money into more buses.

You really need to move away from the idea of door to door buses and instead move to the modern concept of a highly integrated public transport networks. Buses feeding into higher capacity, higher frequency Metro's, Trains and Trams.

This is the way it is done in most European cities and it is the way we are very slowly moving towards.

It really is the only sensible way to deal with a massively congested city that is growing even larger.

I'm not sure how you make out one tram line to be equivalent to more that 16 bus routes?

There are 10 times more bus journeys in Dublin than LUAS where is your logic coming from?

bk

alanc1976 wrote: »

I'm not sure how you make out one tram line to be equivalent to more that 16 bus routes?

There are 10 times more bus journeys in Dublin than LUAS where is your logic coming from?

Actually, the daily ridership of Dublin Bus is only 4 times greater then LUAS.

So 130 Dublin Bus routes add up to just 4 times more people, then just two Luas lines. Says it all about the capacity of Luas versus a bus.

Of course buses cover a far greater geographic area, but as they approach the core city they are all forced onto the same narrow congested streets.

My logic is really very sound, it is carrying the maximum number of people on these narrow, congested, core city streets. Trams do this better then any other form of transport (bar underground Metros).

We really need to be moving away from the concept of every bus going right into O'Connell Street and instead move to a network of local bus services, feeding into high capacity, high frequency Trams, Metros, DARTs and BRT's that bring you the rest of the way into the core city center.

Non of this should be any surprise to any frequent posters here on this forum. This is pretty much city and transport planning 101 for European cities!

Stephen15

alanc1976 wrote: »

Err... do the math
One tram line will benefit
15 or 16 bus routes will be diverted

Overall net effect is still negative!

I think I can accept the fact that my bus is going to be diverted in order to make my city a much nicer place. Stop being so narrrow minded. All your probably oh my bus is going to take a bit longer but in turn your getting a nicer city to live in.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

I also notice that you have ignored my point that this project is also resulting in much wider footpaths, repaired surfaces and improved pedestrian priority, all of which will be a fantastic benefit to the elderly and disabled!

where will the much wider footpaths be?

MJohnston

Some fantastic analysis of traffic restrictions in general here http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

Mostly applies to the Quays plans, but also a College Green, and really any kind of private car restrictions.

lawred2

MJohnston wrote: »

Some fantastic analysis of traffic restrictions in general here http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

Mostly applies to the Quays plans, but also a College Green, and really any kind of private car restrictions.

'well informed media outlets' such as the Irish Times

you jest surely

bk

MJohnston wrote: »

Some fantastic analysis of traffic restrictions in general here http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

+1000

A great article, a most read for everyone here.

schemingbohemia

The Inquirer is a must read, they really do lots of great stuff on community and transport in Dublin.

AndrewJRenko

prinzeugen wrote: »

Only if they live on a Luas line. The majority of the population of Dublin do not live on a Luas or Dart/Railway line.

Or if they can get to one of the several Luas Park and Ride stops and avail of free parking there when they take the Luas into town. Or they can get a bus to a Luas connection point - lots of options.

prinzeugen wrote: »

And if I get on a bus that is going to the city centre, I expect it to go there not pass a mile away.

And the buses will continue to go to the city centre, just not to College Green - though many buses will still come within easy connecting distance of College Green.

lawred2

breaker1 wrote: »

The whole thing is a huge mess.
All of this should have been sorted out a long time ago.
How will the Buses get to Nassau street, Dublin bus and private coaches?
They still have not decided which way the Dublin Bus services are going to go in city centre. Thats how mickey mouse the whole project is, let that sink in, its one giant mess and the NTA have no idea how to fix it.
Its going to be bedlam and i cant wait.

:rolleyes:

lawred2

Same tripe was said about Grafton Street

schemingbohemia

lawred2 wrote: »

Same tripe was said about Grafton Street

Dublin Town are basically Chicken Licken spouting the same rubbish every time - the Sky will fall down if Henry Street is pedestrianized, the Sky will fall down is Grafton Street is pedestrianized, the Sky will fall down if we allow the Luas on Harcourt St/O'Connell St/Abbey St.

Every single time they are proved wrong. Every single time they ignore the facts as evidenced in other countries that making city centres liveable and welcoming to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users increases footfall, purchases and the pleasant nature of the environment.

Even NYC the most car-friendly city in the world realised this through the work of Janet Sadik-Kahn who has just promoted this website.
https://globaldesigningcities.org/about/

Dublin Town are anti-fact, anti-logic and living in the 60's.

Shedite27

MJohnston wrote: »

Some fantastic analysis of traffic restrictions in general here http://www.dublininquirer.com/2017/05/16/david-so-where-will-all-the-city-centre-traffic-go/

Cracking read

I love Sean nos

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Every single time they are proved wrong. Every single time they ignore the facts as evidenced in other countries that making city centres liveable and welcoming to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users increases footfall, purchases and the pleasant nature of the environment.

And yet, come the next major transport project, they'll be back peddling the same tired nonsense again and it'll be treated with all seriousness again.

monument

Discussion on the EIS for College Green Plaza goes to An Bord Pleanala is on a new thread, here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057742569

thomasj

I just noticed that the bus lane on the north quays is not full time and only operates monday-saturday 07.00-10.00 and 12.00-19.00

Surely with the planned changes they have to become 24/7?

bennyineire

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Dublin Town are basically Chicken Licken spouting the same rubbish every time - the Sky will fall down if Henry Street is pedestrianized, the Sky will fall down is Grafton Street is pedestrianized, the Sky will fall down if we allow the Luas on Harcourt St/O'Connell St/Abbey St.

Every single time they are proved wrong. Every single time they ignore the facts as evidenced in other countries that making city centres liveable and welcoming to pedestrians, cyclists and public transport users increases footfall, purchases and the pleasant nature of the environment.

Even NYC the most car-friendly city in the world realised this through the work of Janet Sadik-Kahn who has just promoted this website.
https://globaldesigningcities.org/about/

Dublin Town are anti-fact, anti-logic and living in the 60's.

Have you ever been to NYC cause I can tell you it most certainly is not the most car friendly city in the work. Manhattan in particular is just full of Taxi's, nobody in their right mind would drive in Manhattan. But in saying all that the subways system is probably the best in the world, non matter where you are on the island you are never more that a few blocks from a subway system

orangerhyme

Has anyone noticed the kerb being put in alongside the pillars of BOI HQ on Westmorland St?

Does anyone know the purpose?
They're quite far out. I presume for two-way cycle lane.

HivemindXX

orangerhyme wrote: »

Has anyone noticed the kerb being put in alongside the pillars of BOI HQ on Westmorland St?

Does anyone know the purpose?
They're quite far out. I presume for two-way cycle lane.

They have put a kerb in on the Trinity College side as you approach from Pearse Street end. Road works are still ongoing obviously so I don't know whether the intention is for cyclists to be inside that with the Luas (unlikely in my opinion) or outside with the cars. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be enough room for a car to pass a bicycle in what is now a fairly narrow slot between two high kerbs.

pclive

orangerhyme wrote: »

Has anyone noticed the kerb being put in alongside the pillars of BOI HQ on Westmorland St?

Does anyone know the purpose?
They're quite far out. I presume for two-way cycle lane.

correct. two way cycle track

orangerhyme

pclive wrote: »

correct. two way cycle track

Thanks.

Ive noticed that on the west side of O'Connell bridge there is a large tarmacced two-way cycle path. I guess the intention is to join this up with the kerbing on Westmoreland st.

The kerb is quite far out from the BOI pillars though.

As a cyclist though Im happy to see progress as this whole area is genuinely dangerous.

schemingbohemia

bennyineire wrote: »

Have you ever been to NYC cause I can tell you it most certainly is not the most car friendly city in the work. Manhattan in particular is just full of Taxi's, nobody in their right mind would drive in Manhattan. But in saying all that the subways system is probably the best in the world, non matter where you are on the island you are never more that a few blocks from a subway system

Taxi's are cars or hadn't you noticed?

orangerhyme

HivemindXX wrote: »

They have put a kerb in on the Trinity College side as you approach from Pearse Street end. Road works are still ongoing obviously so I don't know whether the intention is for cyclists to be inside that with the Luas (unlikely in my opinion) or outside with the cars. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be enough room for a car to pass a bicycle in what is now a fairly narrow slot between two high kerbs.

Yeah I cycle this route quite frequently and frankly its a nightmare and dangerous. Id imagine its one of the busiest routes in the city too.

Ive been wondering how they will merge Pearse street/College st cycle traffic with the College Green/Westmoreland st two-way cycle path but Im not sure how they will achieve this.
Id imagine there will also be a lot of cycle traffic merging from D'Olier st too.

LXFlyer

pclive wrote: »

correct. two way cycle track

Not sure if that is what it is planned for currently - I suspect that might be post ABP hearing. That hasn't happened yet.

Right now I suspect that it may well be for the northbound traffic lane from Dame Street pending the final traffic realignments.

orangerhyme

lxflyer wrote: »

Not sure if that is what it is planned for currently - I suspect that might be post ABP hearing. That hasn't happened yet.

Right now I suspect that it may well be for the northbound traffic lane from Dame Street pending the final traffic realignments.

Yes but why the big kerb?

Its unnecessary for a traffic lane.

LXFlyer

orangerhyme wrote: »

Yes but why the big kerb?

Its unnecessary for a traffic lane.

To separate the LUAS line from general traffic.

They've done the same on College Street.

Spanish Eyes

I haven't time to look up the plans, but I sincerely hope that pedestrians will be looked after aswell as buses, Luas, cycles taxis and rickshaws.

I'm sure they are.

ED E

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I haven't time to look up the plans, but I sincerely hope that pedestrians will be looked after aswell as buses, Luas, cycles taxis and rickshaws.

I'm sure they are.

Cyclists have been shafted which puts peds at risk.

Dyr

ED E wrote: »

Cyclists have been shafted which puts peds at risk.

How

ED E

Bambi wrote: »

How

See

Last Monday, April 10, councillors at the committee meeting were given the choice to accept, reject or defer the motion. Such motion votes are symbolic and not binding.

Those who raised their hands to vote to have cyclists dismount across the planned College Green Plaza were, Cllr Sonya Stapleton (independent), Cllr Mannix Flynn (independent), Cllr Ruairi McGinley (independent), and Cllr Anne Feeney (Fine Gael).

Cllr Chris Andrews (Sinn Fein) was the only councillors off screen in the webcast of the meeting, but he indicated he also voted for his motion, which means five councillors voted for the motion.

Taking them at their word and assuming they get their will.

The cycle lane that was suggested originally is apparently gone. So you'll have cycle corridors down Dame Street/Down Georges Street/From SSG/up from pearse converging on a "dismount" area that nobody is going to dismount for. So it'll be a melee of spanish students blindly mobbing about with dublin bikes whizzing through them. Stupid stuff.

Put the lanes back in, lower them by kirb height so peds see them as a crossing and have a much better system.

Dyr

ED E wrote: »

See

Taking them at their word and assuming they get their will.

The cycle lane that was suggested originally is apparently gone. So you'll have cycle corridors down Dame Street/Down Georges Street/From SSG/up from pearse converging on a "dismount" area that nobody is going to dismount for. So it'll be a melee of spanish students blindly mobbing about with dublin bikes whizzing through them. Stupid stuff.

Put the lanes back in, lower them by kirb height so peds see them as a crossing and have a much better system.

Not sure how pedestrianizing an area can put pedestrians at risk.

Just don't be a dick and observe the law, job done.

I love Sean nos

Bambi wrote: »

Just don't be a dick and observe the law, job done.

I agree, but how's that been working out so far?

Dyr

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I agree, but how's that been working out so far?

About as well as stopping parking in bus lanes and stopping traffic going through pedestrian lights has been

Dublin needs some robust traffic enforcement, doesn't excuse the offenders whinging "oh, no it will be so awkward that i'll have to break the law even more now"

ED E

Bambi wrote: »

About as well as stopping parking in bus lanes and stopping traffic going through pedestrian lights has been

Dublin needs some robust traffic enforcement, doesn't excuse the offenders whinging "oh, no it will be so awkward that i'll have to break the law even more now"

The Gardai are crap at their job. That wont change anytime soon. Designing road layouts and furniture can make proper improvements.

bk

ED E wrote: »

The Gardai are crap at their job. That wont change anytime soon. Designing road layouts and furniture can make proper improvements.

I agree, also add more automated systems, red light cameras, etc.

prinzeugen

And more enforcement of the RTA on cyclists. Pass a stop line should be a fine.

But its OK for cyclists. Rathgar village for example.

Council spent big bucks on the crossing that pedestrians struggle to use as it is blocked by 10-15 cyclists every time the lights go red morning and night.

schemingbohemia

ED E wrote: »

See

Taking them at their word and assuming they get their will.

The cycle lane that was suggested originally is apparently gone. So you'll have cycle corridors down Dame Street/Down Georges Street/From SSG/up from pearse converging on a "dismount" area that nobody is going to dismount for. So it'll be a melee of spanish students blindly mobbing about with dublin bikes whizzing through them. Stupid stuff.

Put the lanes back in, lower them by kirb height so peds see them as a crossing and have a much better system.

How do you solve the problem of the visually impaired sh1tting themselves when they come to that lane?
I'm a cyclist, i'm struggling to think of a solution that works for all. In the grand scheme of things - disabilities trump other rights and responsibilities. Personally a fully shared space with no cycle lanes and cyclists chilling and going slowly through this area is only solution I can think of.

monument

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How do you solve the problem of the visually impaired sh1tting themselves when they come to that lane?
I'm a cyclist, i'm struggling to think of a solution that works for all. In the grand scheme of things - disabilities trump other rights and responsibilities. Personally a fully shared space with no cycle lanes and cyclists chilling and going slowly through this area is only solution I can think of.

The stated position of visually impaired representative groups in Ireland and the UK is against shared space and supportive of well-defined segregation.

I love Sean nos

prinzeugen wrote: »

And more enforcement of the RTA on cyclists. Pass a stop line should be a fine.

Why just people on bikes?

prinzeugen

I love Sean nos wrote: »

Why just people on bikes?

Because at this one crossing it is cyclists that are blocking the crossing. Seldom cars.

I will share a few pics once I take them. But if you sit outside the 108 pub after 5pm you can witness it for yourself.

monument

prinzeugen wrote: »

Because at this one crossing it is cyclists that are blocking the crossing. Seldom cars.

I will share a few pics once I take them. But if you sit outside the 108 pub after 5pm you can witness it for yourself.

Last time I checked College Green is not in Dublin 6 -- keep to the topic at hand.

-- moderator

AndrewJRenko

prinzeugen wrote: »

And more enforcement of the RTA on cyclists. Pass a stop line should be a fine.

But its OK for cyclists. Rathgar village for example.

Council spent big bucks on the crossing that pedestrians struggle to use as it is blocked by 10-15 cyclists every time the lights go red morning and night.

Crossing the stop line is a fairly well established technique to get visibility from the drivers in the queue. Though I hate to see cyclists blocking the area of junction for pedestrians to cross. This is a particular problem for wheelchair users, parents with buggies, anyone pushing a trolley or luggage

I'm not quire sure it would be a priority area for Garda attention though, given that 82% of motorists are breaking speed limits, and many, many cars block junctions for pedestrians and cyclists routinely.

I love Sean nos

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Though I hate to see cyclists blocking the area of junction for pedestrians to cross. This is a particular problem for wheelchair users, parents with buggies, anyone pushing a trolley or luggage.

I don't think I've ever been blocked in such a situation by someone with a bicycle.

AndrewJRenko

I love Sean nos wrote: »

I don't think I've ever been blocked in such a situation by someone with a bicycle.

I've seen it happen, at the canal bridges especially. It can be particularly bad at the Grand Canal cycle track junctions, where cyclists just push through and queue in the section of the track supposed to be left for pedestrians.

MJohnston

As a cyclist, Ive said it many times already, but I'd much rather see no bike access to the plaza at all rather than inadequate and dangerous mixed use. Keep the plaza as a pedestrian zone only, and give us some nice cycling paths on surrounding streets instead.

AndrewJRenko

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How do you solve the problem of the visually impaired sh1tting themselves when they come to that lane?
I'm a cyclist, i'm struggling to think of a solution that works for all. In the grand scheme of things - disabilities trump other rights and responsibilities. Personally a fully shared space with no cycle lanes and cyclists chilling and going slowly through this area is only solution I can think of.

monument wrote: »

The stated position of visually impaired representative groups in Ireland and the UK is against shared space and supportive of well-defined segregation.

I think there may be a workable solution with a well segregated bike path, using something like planters and seating to create a route through the plaza. It could be tested fairly easily with street furniture that could easily be moved or removed if it doesn't work out.

donvito99

prinzeugen wrote: »

Because at this one crossing it is cyclists that are blocking the crossing. Seldom cars.

I will share a few pics once I take them. But if you sit outside the 108 pub after 5pm you can witness it for yourself.

I live and work nearby. The issue is not cyclists. The issue is vehicles from the direction of terenure partially blocking the junction inbound, forcing vehicles from Orwell road to manoeuvre around them, practically very close to those sitting outside the 108, to travel towards rathmines. To pin the inefficiency of that junction on cyclists is silly.

stop

donvito99 wrote: »

I live and work nearby. The issue is not cyclists. The issue is vehicles from the direction of terenure partially blocking the junction inbound, forcing vehicles from Orwell road to manoeuvre around them, practically very close to those sitting outside the 108, to travel towards rathmines. To pin the inefficiency of that junction on cyclists is silly.

Also the odd car parked on double yellows outside O'Briens & the travel shop (i.e. outside the loading bay). Creates a choke point where Rathgar Road traffic can't pass if traffic is queueing for Highfield Road.

monument

Warning to all: back on topic:

You can talk about cycling behaviour but it must relate to somewhere in the College Green project.

-- moderator

orangerhyme

lxflyer wrote: »

To separate the LUAS line from general traffic.

They've done the same on College Street.

It actually is a cycle lane. I was right.

I saw it today and its open to cycle traffic.