College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

AndrewJRenko

brokenarms wrote: »

Imm will that work..
Those private guys hang out in stops alot trying to get as many fairs as they can. Blocking the lot up. Even those red open top tour busses have blocked me from getting in loads of times. In high traffic areas such as Dame street. They just sit there. Twiddling their thumbs.

Private and DB need to be separate.

Or just some proper enforcement from the Gardai to ensure that bus stops don't become bus waiting areas. Look at the Matthews and other coaches who have turned the bus lane on the Belfield slip road into their waiting area at UCD.

Stephen15

They should build a large coachpark somewhere near the city centre where private coaches could park up for the day after they drop off their loads. Any coaches found parked up in the city centre would be fined and clamped/towed.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

They should build a large coachpark somewhere near the city centre where private coaches could park up for the day after they drop off their loads. Any coaches found parked up in the city centre would be fined and clamped/towed.

They are building a coach park in Docklands already for this as we speak.

The issue being mentioned above isn't coaches parked up, but rather the extended dwell times while they load up passengers.

Stephen15

LXFlyer wrote: »

They are building a coach park in Docklands already for this as we speak.

The issue being mentioned above isn't coaches parked up, but rather the extended dwell times while they load up passengers.

I was going to say they should build one near the Luas line so their passengers could get a Luas the rest of the way into town maybe build near the red line for passengers coming from the south and one near the BXD line for passengers coming from the north. Perhaps Phibsboro and/or Broadstone could be moved to the outskirts and passengers could come the rest of the way into town by luas

ED E

LXFlyer wrote: »

They are building a coach park in Docklands already for this as we speak.

The issue being mentioned above isn't coaches parked up, but rather the extended dwell times while they load up passengers.

There are at least two dozen busses committing 100+ traffic offences outside the customs house daily. Need to get that built sharpish.

LXFlyer

Stephen15 wrote: »

I was going to say they should build one near the Luas line so their passengers could get a Luas the rest of the way into town maybe build near the red line for passengers coming from the south and one near the BXD line for passengers coming from the north. Perhaps Phibsboro and/or Broadstone could be moved to the outskirts and passengers could come the rest of the way into town by luas

Do you seriously think LUAS has the capacity for that?

Do you think people will be prepared to pay twice to reach the city centre?

Spanish Eyes

Not being smart here, but I doubt I will EVER have to use the BXD Northbound at all.

That's fine, many do not need or use the Green or Red line either.

I just hope all this work is worth it. But if it integrates with other modes that is great. Where does LUAS meet DART as it is. Apart from Connolly?

Stephen15

LXFlyer wrote: »

Do you seriously think LUAS has the capacity for that?

Do you think people Willis be prepared to pay twice to reach the city centre?

Its what 50 additional people being brought into the cc. The Luas already has to bring people from Hueston into the cc. I actually believe the luas to Broombridge is going to be under ulitised.

Well they'll have to pay the fare twice if they want to get to the cc.

trellheim

Anyone know what controls will be on private traffic turning right onto OCB from Bachelors walk ?

Will it be taxis buses and cyclists or what and nothing else, any idea re timings of operation and so on

StreetLight

trellheim wrote: »

Anyone know what controls will be on private traffic turning right onto OCB from Bachelors walk ?

Will it be taxis buses and cyclists or what and nothing else, any idea re timings of operation and so on

Most likely there will be signage for a no right-turn, so knowing current drivers attitudes it will be just another free-for-all.

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

Anyone know what controls will be on private traffic turning right onto OCB from Bachelors walk ?

Will it be taxis buses and cyclists or what and nothing else, any idea re timings of operation and so on

Full ban. Signage presumably.

Why not just wait until the publicity happens in the next couple of weeks and you'll find out.

trellheim

because there are plenty here who know or have a good idea about it, and its worth the discussion .

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

because there are plenty here who know or have a good idea about it, and its worth the discussion .

I've put links to the plans up here at least twice - I'm not really sure what more you need?

That's all the publically available info as yet.

monument

Sunday Business Post making a fool out of its self again on transport issues:

College Green plaza project could cost city 5,000 jobs
-- Brown Thomas, Arnotts and the Jervis shopping centre have objected to the plan

https://www.businesspost.ie/business/college-green-plaza-project-cost-city-5000-jobs-395003

magicbastarder

i didn't know that many people were employed by multi-storey car parks.

Cookie_Monster

monument wrote: »

Sunday Business Post making a fool out of its self again on transport issues:

College Green plaza project could cost city 5,000 jobs
-- Brown Thomas, Arnotts and the Jervis shopping centre have objected to the plan

https://www.businesspost.ie/business/college-green-plaza-project-cost-city-5000-jobs-395003

behind a paywall, any context / excerpt?

monument

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

behind a paywall, any context / excerpt?

Beyond it's the same group that was set up to oppose the traffic changes, no. I'd buy the paper if I'd seen it earlier on Sunday but there's no way I paying €20 for monthly access for one article, their lowest subscription level.

Bray Head

It's presumably the usual guff from the city centre traders who can't see that more pedestrians in the city centre and better public transport would actually be good for business long term.

HivemindXX

It's amazing that Brown Thomas et al can still get out press releases from the post apocalyptic bunker they must live in after all the other city destroying changes they opposed went in.

If we listened to the likes of them we'd have no Luas, no pedestrian areas and no cycle facility. Imagine how much better Brown Thomas' car park Grafton Street would be doing with no Luas and free access to cars.

They have produced utter nonsense so much that I really hope the city council, and everyone else, automatically bins any submissions from this crowd. Certainly if they make claims like this and don't back it up with any evidence they are just wasting time. Is anyone who actually subscribes to the SBP able to tell us where these supposed 5,000 jobs are going to be lost? Is this a net figure or a gross one?

LXFlyer

Retailers do not like change - it's an industry in which the immediate short term tends to be the more important focus.

They will always oppose anything that *might* cause negative impact on sales.

Stephen15

LXFlyer wrote: »

Retailers do not like change - it's an industry in which the immediate short term tends to be the more important focus.

They will always oppose anything that *might* cause negative impact on sales.

I say fcuk them. Its more important that we make things better in the long term for the majority of ordinary citizens rather than being held to ransom by the Weston family. If it has a negative impact on sales so what it won't effect me or the majority of people. We need to put the majority in front of the minority.

AlekSmart

LXFlyer wrote: »

As I posted in my previous post the NTA is in the process of rolling out new standardised multi-operator single bus stops.

This is currently happening in Cork and will roll out across the entire country.

Given the sheer volume of stops (approximately 5,000 in Dublin alone), expecting that to happen quickly is probably expecting a bit much.

Indeed,and so appalingly true.

Take,for example,the recently reopened (and VERY busy) DublinBus stops on Dawson Street (792 & 793).

These have been out of commission for many months,whilst the BXD works were ongoing.

Now,after a substantial and very comprehensive remodelling,we have new RTPI poles,updated DB Stops and the rest.

However,we also have Statutory Road Markings,which do not align with the Bus Pole locations,and which appear designed to facilitate the day long parking of a 161D registered brown Ford Focus,which although clamped on occasion,continues to occupy the "ambiguously" lined section of the Bus Bay.

Whilst,passengers often berate Busdrivers for holding back or delaying until the bus in front vacates the bay,they rarely exhibit an understanding of the requirements imposed upon a Busdriver by facilitating Low-Floor access for the elderly/Infirm and wheelchair bound passengers.

From my own perspective,were I in charge of Dublin Bus,when the first reports of this anti-social bollacksology were recieved,I would have removed ALL services from the Stops concerned until the relevant "Authorities" had bothered their collective backsides to GO AND LOOK at their incompent handiwork.

By far the biggest issue here is the relative anonymity of the (alleged) Proffessional Engineers and Planners who undertook the work,and who,presumably,have trousered the money and headed off to their next target.

I'm unsure of how many hundred million's of € this project has cost,so far,but, from what I now see unfolding on a daily basis,the actual operational aspects of BXD & other public transport methods has not been given even cursory thought.

We remain a very odd,perplexing State,which appears incapable of managing even the simplest Public Transport infrastructural provision,whilst coincidentally remaining ever able to "maintain access to City- Centre Car Parks" come what may.....

I would suggest that bk+camera might sashay on up to Dawson Street,and spend an hour or so recording and inspecting the carry-on...It might even make a good entry in the Short Documentary section of the Dublin Film Festival.

RayM

Bray Head wrote: »

It's presumably the usual guff from the city centre traders who can't see that more pedestrians in the city centre and better public transport would actually be good for business long term.

Not so good if a significant chunk of your business involves charging people over a tenner to park their car for three hours. I'm sure they've done their sums and concluded that more people buying stuff doesn't necessarily mean more profit. And to hell with all the smaller retailers who don't own car parks.

Telchak

LXFlyer wrote: »

Retailers do not like change - it's an industry in which the immediate short term tends to be the more important focus.

They will always oppose anything that *might* cause negative impact on sales.

I work for a city centre retailer that's had sales negatively impacted by Luas works just outside the door, but the store manager has been nothing but positive about potential growth once the line is up and running. The benefits of making the city more accessible versus out-of-town shopping centres seem so obvious to anybody that takes more than a minute to think about it

AndrewJRenko

Meanwhile in Spain;

https://twitter.com/jen_keesmaat/status/894571295819661312

HivemindXX

Telchak wrote: »

I work for a city centre retailer that's had sales negatively impacted by Luas works just outside the door, but the store manager has been nothing but positive about potential growth once the line is up and running. The benefits of making the city more accessible versus out-of-town shopping centres seem so obvious to anybody that takes more than a minute to think about it

Dublin Town and similar 'retailer' organisations imply they represent all small businesses and retailers in the city centre when they oppose pretty much anything that is planned. It's good to get confirmation that it is not true.

By the way I passed a shop with a "Dublin Town" member sticker in the window the other day. That would weigh against my decision to give them my business, but I guess it is useful to know who supports, and who doesn't support, this backwards nonsense.

Stephen15

HivemindXX wrote: »

Dublin Town and similar 'retailer' organisations imply they represent all small businesses and retailers in the city centre when they oppose pretty much anything that is planned. It's good to get confirmation that it is not true.

By the way I passed a shop with a "Dublin Town" member sticker in the window the other day. That would weigh against my decision to give them my business, but I guess it is useful to know who supports, and who doesn't support, this backwards nonsense.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/campaigners-call-for-disbandment-of-dublin-town-group-1.3135934

Spanish Eyes

I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but South William Street would be magnificent if it was traffic free. It is a great part of Dublin and has great nightlife. Same goes for Clarendon Street.

Any reasons they are full of cars? I know about the car parks, but is there access to one on SW Street?

yer man!

I would love to see South William street pedestrian only, I guess it's baby steps though. Coppinger Row and Castle Market are really nice places to be, I'm sure they weren't so easy to make pedestrian zones. Suffolk street is going pedestrian right? I know that was lumped into the NTA college green initiative. Seems closed of for so long no body misses it being a through way.

buffalo

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't know if anyone agrees with me, but South William Street would be magnificent if it was traffic free. It is a great part of Dublin and has great nightlife. Same goes for Clarendon Street.

Any reasons they are full of cars? I know about the car parks, but is there access to one on SW Street?

I think the Brown Thomas car park on Clarendon Street exits onto South William Street.

https://goo.gl/maps/qu5XfodzPs82

magicbastarder

yep, entrance is on clarendon street, exit is on south william street. one of the most inexplicable planning decisions dublin city centre is suffering from.

monument

yer man! wrote: »

I would love to see South William street pedestrian only, I guess it's baby steps though. Coppinger Row and Castle Market are really nice places to be, I'm sure they weren't so easy to make pedestrian zones. Suffolk street is going pedestrian right? I know that was lumped into the NTA college green initiative. Seems closed of for so long no body misses it being a through way.

There was a push to get South William Street pedestrianised or walking and cycling only. The vast majority of the businesses in the area supported a trial, but Brown Thomas killed it.

Spanish Eyes

monument wrote: »

There was a push to get South William Street pedestrianised or walking and cycling only. The vast majority of the businesses in the area supported a trial, but Brown Thomas killed it.

Well as previous posters have advised there will never be pedestrianisation on either SW street or Clarendon St. due to the BT car park entrances and exit.

Such a shame that those atmospheric narrow streets in a really vibrant part of Dublin are hamstrung forever with cars now. Car free could have turned that part of the city into a lively bohemian area where you could actually walk and enjoy the local businesses.

I give up, (sometimes.)

ED E

magicbastarder wrote: »

yep, entrance is on clarendon street, exit is on south william street. one of the most inexplicable planning decisions dublin city centre is suffering from.

They (DCC) tried to pedestrianise SW back in the early 90s but were blocked then and forever more by the car park.

Somebody needs to face up to QPark and Park Rite and start undoing past mistakes. One behind the GPO should be public enemy number one.

monument

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Well as previous posters have advised there will never be pedestrianisation on either SW street or Clarendon St. due to the BT car park entrances and exit.

Such a shame that those atmospheric narrow streets in a really vibrant part of Dublin are hamstrung forever with cars now. Car free could have turned that part of the city into a lively bohemian area where you could actually walk and enjoy the local businesses.

I give up, (sometimes.)

See map below:

Red = reverse flow
Yellow = no cars*
Green = keep flow as is

* = could be pedestrians only or could be cycling / walking only.



Or, if the car park reverses its internal flow (if that's possable), then you could do:

Red = keep flow as is, but only access to BT car park
Yellow = no cars*
Green = keep flow as is

This would be better for the car park flows, so that the "out" flow isn't cross-crossing the "in" flow. But would require some level of by in from the car park.

Spanish Eyes

@monument.

That sounds like a plan! Pity the City Fathers don't have some imagination or cojones to think outside the box.

However, if the traffic flow is reversed at the BT exit there doesn't appear to be anywhere the cars can go other than down Exchequer Street and back up Clarendon Street.

If there was another way out for them either to access Georges Street, or down Andrew Street, then the SW Street/Clarendon Street rectangle could be pedestrianised.

But I may be reading the maps wrong!

MJohnston

monument wrote: »

See map below:

Red = reverse flow
Yellow = no cars*
Green = keep flow as is

* = could be pedestrians only or could be cycling / walking only.

Or, if the car park reverses its internal flow (if that's possable), then you could do:

Red = keep flow as is, but only access to BT car park
Yellow = no cars*
Green = keep flow as is

This would be better for the car park flows, so that the "out" flow isn't cross-crossing the "in" flow. But would require some level of by in from the car park.

I would be fully supportive of these plans, but I would note that there appears to also be a private car park at 29-31 S. William Street.

AndrewJRenko

MJohnston wrote: »

I would be fully supportive of these plans, but I would note that there appears to also be a private car park at 29-31 S. William Street.

CPO

MJohnston

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

CPO

Yeah, but then you're spending substantial money, which makes it all the more unlikely to happen. Perhaps someone might hopefully decide to redevelop that building (look at the state of it) and in the process forgo the parking area.

monument

MJohnston wrote: »

I would be fully supportive of these plans, but I would note that there appears to also be a private car park at 29-31 S. William Street.

There's options. CPO or, more practically, route the access in and out via the Chatham Row end of the street. It's low a low level of traffic and allowing it would have little impact.

There also seems to be a car park in the building housing a company we all know, the AA, at Maryland House, numbers 20 and 21 on the street. Although, I think the AA also has access from Drury St.

Avada

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, but then you're spending substantial money, which makes it all the more unlikely to happen. Perhaps someone might hopefully decide to redevelop that building (look at the state of it) and in the process forgo the parking area.

You are spending substantial money, but you're gaining a city centre site which can be redeveloped for other purposes. This would offset the cost somewhat.

cgcsb

Even if it were impossible to pedestrianise SWS, surely there is no reason why we have to have parking on BOTH sides of the road.

magicbastarder

i emailed cllr. andrew montague (very approachable chap) about SWS a year or two back; he sent this on to me:

Question to the Chief Executive
Council Meeting 04th JULY 2016
Q.86 COUNCILLOR ANDREW MONTAGUE
Can the Chief Executive remove the on-street car parking on South William Street? This will allow wider pavements at the southern end of the street. This was planned by the traffic department a few years back.

CHIEF EXECUTIVE’S REPLY:
As part of the public realm improvements proposed under the Grafton Street Quarter Public Realm Plan, it is generally intended that on street parking for private vehicles be removed, including on South William Street.

Under the Plan, improvement works have already been completed at Grafton Street itself and at Johnson’s Court and part of Wicklow Street. Part 8 planning approval is in place and detailed design works are well advanced for public realm improvements in the Chatham Street, Harry Street area. Design proposals for improvements at Clarendon Street / Clarendon Row are due to be submitted for Part 8 planning approval shortly. While it is difficult to indicate a timeframe for the development of the detailed proposals for public realm improvements at South William Street, I can confirm that the designs will provide for removal of car parking with an improved pedestrian environment to include widened footpaths.

For further information, the Grafton Street Quarter Public Realm Plan is available on the website

Dyr

magicbastarder wrote: »

i emailed cllr. andrew montague (very approachable chap) about SWS a year or two back; he sent this on to me:

The same git that I saw directing gardai around a public park to roust people like was some kind of sheriff

I was hoping someone would approach him with a hurl.

stop

Dublin Bus wants to keep running buses through College Green plaza

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-wants-to-keep-running-buses-through-college-green-plaza-1.3187893?mode=amp

LXFlyer

Two articles in the Irish Times today outlining Dublin Bus concerns about the impact on the bus network of bus routes being removed from College Green.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-says-plaza-plan-would-be-socially-regressive-1.3187804

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/dublin-bus-wants-to-keep-running-buses-through-college-green-plaza-1.3187893

Good to see Dublin Bus actually fighting this plan, and in particular the suggested alternative routes, some of which were ludicrous.

ABP have ordered DCC to undertake a comprehensive review of the impact of closing College Green on all modes and journey times across the entire city centre, rather than simply College Green and the immediate surroundings, to be completed by September 21st.

It also must respond to concerns raised about the lack of segregated cycle facilities across the plaza.

Perhaps this might lead to some more coherent plans for the bus service through the city centre in the intervening period before the BusConnects project starts to be implemented, rather than ones that were clearly drawn up on the back of an envelope.

Feckofff

If they allow the noisey, polluting and dangerous buses into plaza they may as well leave all traffic through.

Give buses a clear path and you will have drivers speeding through at 60km+

Belfast tried pedestrian streets with buses and it just didn't work. People can not relax as they have to watch for buses all the time.

Spanish Eyes

If buses are allowed on the plaza, the project should be cancelled.

I don't think it will work at all. But maybe this is DB finally getting DCC to wake up to the implications of Luas and Plaza.

Let's wait and see.

LXFlyer

Feckofff wrote: »

If they allow the noisey, polluting and dangerous buses into plaza they may as well leave all traffic through.

Give buses a clear path and you will have drivers speeding through at 60km+

Belfast tried pedestrian streets with buses and it just didn't work. People can not relax as they have to watch for buses all the time.

Presumably you've examined how the proposal affects the people using the buses in arriving at that statement?

The principal problem with this proposal are the routings for routes 9, 16 and 122, three of the busiest cross-city routes in the city.

The proposals for these routes were:

Northbound from Leonard's Corner to O'Connell Street:

Two options:

1. Via Clanbrassil St, Patrick St, Winetavern St and the North Quays; or
2. Via SCR, Camden St, Georges St, left onto Dame St, Lord Edward St, Winetavern St, and the North Quays

Southbound from O'Connell Street to Leonards Corner:

O'Connell Bridge, D'Olier St, College St, Westmoreland St, South Quays, Parliament St, Dame St, Georges St and then existing route

Northbound option 1 misses out some of the busiest stops on these routes which service the main CBD and retail areas to the east of Camden St/Georges St, and is a completely different route to the proposed southbound routing.

Northbound option 2 involves a massive loop which would significantly increase journey times for people travelling cross-city and make using public transport far less attractive.

The southbound routing (which was originally supposed to include a direct turn from O'Connell Bridge to the North Quays) involves a maddening loop around the D'Olier St/College St/Westmoreland St triangle, before another loop up the Quays to get back to Dame St and Georges St. This would also affect routes 13, 40 and 123.

I doubt DB are suggesting that all routes retain their route through College Green. Bus routes going to/from Thomas Street and to/from The Coombe can use the Quays without impacting upon passengers to any significant degree.

But I do believe that as a compromise, the current northbound routing for routes 9, 16 and 122 should be retained through College Green via a single traffic lane to the south of the plaza with access controlled by automatic rising/lowering bollards to stop other road users from using that route. I appreciate that a lot of people won't like that idea, but I think that the negative impact on those three routes is far too great otherwise.

Southbound, buses need to be able to turn directly off O'Connell Bridge to the South Quays and not forced to do an extended loop via the triangle mentioned above.

The whole manner in which this has been dealt with has been shambolic to be honest, and I'm glad to see that ABP are insisting on examining the wider impacts on the city as a whole of the proposals.

Seaswimmer

Why was the Parliament Street bus corridor proposal dropped as that would seem (to me!!) to be a reasonable compromise as it is not a huge walk from there to Georges St/College green area??