College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

MJohnston

LXFlyer - we're all aware that this will have a massive effect on the bus network, but equally, it is entirely valid to say that the plaza is essentially pointless with buses being allowed to run through it. Those two statements are not contradictory.

Feckofff

LXFlyer wrote: »

Presumably you've examined how the proposal affects the people using the buses in arriving at that statement?

The principal problem with this proposal are the routings for routes 9, 16 and 122, three of the busiest cross-city routes in the city.

The proposals for these routes were:

Northbound from Leonard's Corner to O'Connell Street:

Two options:

1. Via Clanbrassil St, Patrick St, Winetavern St and the North Quays; or
2. Via SCR, Camden St, Georges St, left onto Dame St, Lord Edward St, Winetavern St, and the North Quays

Southbound from O'Connell Street to Leonards Corner:

O'Connell Bridge, D'Olier St, College St, Westmoreland St, South Quays, Parliament St, Dame St, Georges St and then existing route

Northbound option 1 misses out some of the busiest stops on these routes which service the main CBD and retail areas to the east of Camden St/Georges St, and is a completely different route to the proposed southbound routing.

Northbound option 2 involves a massive loop which would significantly increase journey times for people travelling cross-city and make using public transport far less attractive.

The southbound routing (which was originally supposed to include a direct turn from O'Connell Bridge to the North Quays) involves a maddening loop around the D'Olier St/College St/Westmoreland St triangle, before another loop up the Quays to get back to Dame St and Georges St. This would also affect routes 13, 40 and 123.

I doubt DB are suggesting that all routes retain their route through College Green. Bus routes going to/from Thomas Street and to/from The Coombe can use the Quays without impacting upon passengers to any significant degree.

But I do believe that as a compromise, the current northbound routing for routes 9, 16 and 122 should be retained through College Green via a single traffic lane to the south of the plaza with access controlled by automatic rising/lowering bollards to stop other road users from using that route. I appreciate that a lot of people won't like that idea, but I think that the negative impact on those three routes is far too great otherwise.

Southbound, buses need to be able to turn directly off O'Connell Bridge to the South Quays and not forced to do an extended loop via the triangle mentioned above.

The whole manner in which this has been dealt with has been shambolic to be honest, and I'm glad to see that ABP are insisting on examining the wider impacts on the city as a whole of the proposals.

If the buses have to got though college green then fair enough, we can leave it as it is.

I would object to spending 10 million to create a world class rat run for 3 bus routes.

LXFlyer

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Why was the Parliament Street bus corridor proposal dropped as that would seem (to me!!) to be a reasonable compromise as it is not a huge walk from there to Georges St/College green area??

The northbound bus lane on Parliament Street was dropped due to local business owners' and residents' objections.

MJohnston wrote: »

LXFlyer - we're all aware that this will have a massive effect on the bus network, but equally, it is entirely valid to say that the plaza is essentially pointless with buses being allowed to run through it. Those two statements are not contradictory.

I don't think people are aware of the impact - those proposed diversions could add a massive amount of time to someone's cross-city journey on the 9, 16 and 122, three of the busiest cross-city bus routes in the city, and there comes a point where you have to say this is just crazy.

Neither of the proposed routes outlined above are acceptable due to either missing key stops along Camden St/Georges St or going on a massive detour via Christ Church.

I actually like the proposed plaza idea, but I think without putting in realistic options for the buses, it's going too far. The proposed routings in the latest iteration for specifically three bus routes - the 9, 16 and 122, are a nonsense.

The other routes can probably cope with the proposed changes (save for the lack of a right turn from O'Connell Bridge to the South Quays).

Something has to give with them - either re-instate the northbound bus lane on Parliament St for just those three routes, or else retain their current routing northbound via College Green.

But far too many bus users are potentially being treated shabbily by this process and I'm glad that Dublin Bus is finally voicing their concerns about this.

trellheim

The northbound bus lane on Parliament Street was dropped due to local business owners' and residents' objections.

I... Did not know that.

I agree that leaving buses through, invalidates the plaza concept unless you can tunnel them under the plaza but that is nigh-on impossible

Might it also be a thing to judge the quays cycle route at the same time

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

I... Did not know that.

I agree that leaving buses through, invalidates the plaza concept unless you can tunnel them under the plaza but that is nigh-on impossible

Might it also be a thing to judge the quays cycle route at the same time

The Parliament St issue was in the public consultation in May from DCC, posted here and which invited submissions from the public to ABP on the proposals.

Again though, I don't think DCC even bothered to examine using it for a smaller number of routes in either direction, and leaving others to use Winetavern St and Bridge St.

The Liffey Cycle Route proposals (two alternatives) are currently undergoing an environmental assessment which will report back to the DCC Transportation SPC in October.

strandroad

And this is why we can't have nice things.
Because our public transport system is based on the antiquated buses through the city centre principle.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

I don't think people are aware of the impact

In fairness, most of us posting on this thread *are* aware, and you've done a very good job of making sure we know why.

But I'm just saying, we can be aware of that and think it's pointless to go ahead with a plaza when buses will be allowed through it.

It's not saying "the plaza should go ahead and to hell with the buses".

LXFlyer

strandroad wrote: »

And this is why we can't have nice things.
Because our public transport system is based on the antiquated buses through the city centre principle.

Well if we had Metro North and DART Underground in place, then this wouldn't be an issue. But we don't sadly.

Without them, we need a functioning bus service, and that needs to operate where people want to go.

I've already suggested that perhaps they could re-instate the northbound bus lane plan on Parliament St for these three routes, but if they won't do that, then there is a serious problem, as these routes are pretty critical ones.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

In fairness, most of us posting on this thread *are* aware, and you've done a very good job of making sure we know why.

But I'm just saying, we can be aware of that and think it's pointless to go ahead with a plaza when buses will be allowed through it.

It's not saying "the plaza should go ahead and to hell with the buses".

Many people here may be aware, but just look at the reaction in general to the news of the changes to the North Quays - most people only see the impact of changes such as these when they come to be implemented.

The good news from this is that ABP have ordered DCC to look at the impact of the proposal on the city as a whole for all modes, and that has to be a good thing, along with the cycle issues too.

We will just have to wait and see what comes out of this process.

devnull

I would like to see a full plaza without buses ideally and less buses being routed through the same old places and that kind of mentality that we have in Dublin, however lets be realistic.

There's not really anywhere else they can go without massively effecting bus transport and taking people where they want to go, so as much I wish it wasn't the case and there were alternatives, Dublin Bus do have a point.

Spanish Eyes

The 9, 16 and 122, 123 could be moved to go down Cuffe Street, across SSG south, and join all the other routes going down Dawson Street. That's towards City Centre.

Back out is a bit more problematic, but I'm sure a similar solution could be found by reversing flow or introducing dual flow on SSG.

Thus avoiding Luas and Plaza.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The 9, 16 and 122, 123 could be moved to go down Cuffe Street, across SSG south, and join all the other routes going down Dawson Street. That's towards City Centre.

Back out is a bit more problematic, but I'm sure a similar solution could be found by reversing flow or introducing dual flow on SSG.

Thus avoiding Luas and Plaza.

Except it's not avoiding the LUAS - they'd have to share space with it on Dawson St, Nassau St and Grafton St - that's a tall order given the space available.

MJohnston

I've said this on another thread, but I think the 122 will be very unlikely to survive in it's current form post-BXD and post-BusConnect, I think there's too much overlap as-is, and the 122 already has a couple of badly chosen route turns.

Spanish Eyes

LXFlyer wrote: »

Except it's not avoiding the LUAS - they'd have to share space with it on Dawson St, Nassau St and Grafton St - that's a tall order given the space available.

I was thinking that those buses would take a right at the end of Dawson Street and go Clare Street, Westland Row, Pearse Street. That's the way all buses on Dawson Street at present are funnelled and it seems to work alright. Although I take your point, there is no getting away from Luas it is problematic alright.

Anyway, was just a thought for avoiding the Plaza itself.

MJohnston

Integrated ticketing really is a must-do for BusConnects, I feel. Then we could think about bus routes not having to actually enter the city centre along paths where a Luas line is present, and a lot of these routing problems would disappear.

LXFlyer

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I was thinking that those buses would take a right at the end of Dawson Street and go Clare Street, Westland Row, Pearse Street. That's the way all buses on Dawson Street at present are funnelled and it seems to work alright. Although I take your point, there is no getting away from Luas it is problematic alright.

Anyway, was just a thought for avoiding the Plaza itself.

There will be no right turn at the bottom of Dawson St anymore once LUAS starts. Some routes will (I expect) use Kildare St northbound instead as there won't be capacity for them all to share with LUAS.

Sending the 9, 16 and 122 via Westland Row is as bad a diversion as sending them via Christchurch - there has to a balance here.

There's also very little space for a right turn from Wexford St to Cuffe St - believe me I've walked all over to look at this.

MJohnston wrote: »

Integrated ticketing really is a must-do for BusConnects, I feel. Then we could think about bus routes not having to actually enter the city centre along paths where a Luas line is present, and a lot of these routing problems would disappear.

LUAS won't have the capacity to remove these people from the buses - that's asking too much of it.

Only Metro North and DART Underground could attempt to do that frankly.

LXFlyer

LXFlyer wrote: »

Only Metro North and DART Underground could attempt to do that frankly.

If you had to put a probability on either of these things being given the go-ahead in the next couple of years what would it be?

MJohnston

Uriah Big Gunpoint wrote: »

If you had to put a probability on either of these things being given the go-ahead in the next couple of years what would it be?

Metro North has a much higher probability than DU at the minute. But then imo DU has a 0% chance, so that's maybe not saying much, but I do think we're likely to hear about an accelerated Metro North timetable coming up to or in this year's budget.

LXFlyer

Uriah Big Gunpoint wrote: »

If you had to put a probability on either of these things being given the go-ahead in the next couple of years what would it be?

Well it would look good for the Minister for Finance locally if he advanced Metro North....

But frankly we urgently need both, along with capacity upgrades on the Northern Line, resignalling of Connolly, and the removal of level crossings on the Maynooth Line.

Not advancing these projects will come back to bite politicians for years to come otherwise as the city grinds to a standstill.

I suspect any heavy rail project is awaiting the outcome of the ongoing NTA Rail Review.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well it would look good for the Minister for Finance locally if he advanced Metro North....

Locally and internationally, I would say...just not nationally!

bk

MJohnston wrote: »

Locally and internationally, I would say...just not nationally!

Yup, a big investment in public transport infrastructure, including buses, Metro North, etc. is needed to attract Brexit business from London.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Locally and internationally, I would say...just not nationally!

I meant votes wise come the next election - it would serve his constituency - that's the key here!!!

We are talking about Irish politics remember.

I maybe being a tad sarcastic about it!

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

Yup, a big investment in public transport infrastructure, including buses, Metro North, etc. is needed to attract Brexit business from London.

I think that's precisely why we're going to get it too. I mean, sure we've a housing crisis that Metro would help alleviate, and sure we've a homelessness crisis that easing the housing crisis would help, and sure we've a massive deficit in Dublin's public transport infrastructure...but because we're looking silly in the international press, it's probably going ahead.

Whatever, I guess, at least it'll still fix those other things even if the government had no intention of doing so.

trellheim

Metro North has a much higher probability than DU at the minute. But then imo DU has a 0% chance, so that's maybe not saying much, but I do think we're likely to hear about an accelerated Metro North timetable coming up to or in this year's budget.

So do I, MN ^^^

KD345

Dublin Bus are protecting their services and customers and it's hard to argue against that. No decent alternative has been offered for the affected routes so they obviously felt they had no choice but to object.

I would be shocked if An Bord Pleanana approve the plans for College Green plaza in its current state. While the 9, 16 and 122 are the most affected routes, this impacts many bus services currently using Dame Street which will now be forced onto the quays. We are talking about tens of thousands of passengers affected on these routes.

On top of this, we're now looking at Dame Street itself becoming a bus park, with routes 49, 54A, 79, 79A, 150 and potentially the 65, 65B, 68 and 68A all terminating here.

whiskeygirl

Madness DB left it this late to complain or at least make their opposition publicly known. Already ridiculously unreliable routes like the 13, 27 and 40 will be become unusable if funnelled down the quays as proposed. DCC have shown complete disregard for thousands of commuters with no other public transport options from areas like North Clondalkin, Tallaght etc.

Unfortunately I can't see them backing down about this plaza.

LXFlyer

whiskeygirl wrote: »

Madness DB left it this late to complain or at least make their opposition publicly known. Already ridiculously unreliable routes like the 13, 27 and 40 will be become unusable if funnelled down the quays as proposed. DCC have shown complete disregard for thousands of commuters with no other public transport options from areas like North Clondalkin, Tallaght etc.

Unfortunately I can't see them backing down about this plaza.

Well DB were only given the same notice as the rest of us - the revised plans were only made public in May by DCC. They would have made their submission in June to ABP as did everyone else.

Bear in mind that DCC removed the northbound contra-flow bus lane on Parliament St - that has completely changed this situation.

ABP are now asking for a full assessment of the impact of the changes across the city - that has to be a good thing.

BonnieSituation

What's with the obsession with routing buses up O'Connell Street?

Church St (and others) Northbound is aching to be used here.

LXFlyer

KD345 wrote: »

Dublin Bus are protecting their services and customers and it's hard to argue against that. No decent alternative has been offered for the affected routes so they obviously felt they had no choice but to object.

I would be shocked if An Bord Pleanana approve the plans for College Green plaza in its current state. While the 9, 16 and 122 are the most affected routes, this impacts many bus services currently using Dame Street which will now be forced onto the quays. We are talking about tens of thousands of passengers affected on these routes.

On top of this, we're now looking at Dame Street itself becoming a bus park, with routes 49, 54A, 79, 79A, 150 and potentially the 65, 65B, 68 and 68A all terminating here.

The proposed bus stand on Dame St was too small (40m) to cope with the original amount of buses terminating there. That would only cope with three buses. They seem to not understand that buses do need layover time between trips (to allow for delays).

LXFlyer

BonnieSituation wrote: »

What's with the obsession with routing buses up O'Connell Street?

Church St (and others) Northbound is aching to be used here.

What routes would you suggest use it?

Cookie_Monster

Given that the NTA control routes and timetables etc now why are DB making noise instead of going through the NTA? Seems counter-productive to allow (or give airtime to) DB to continue to make such statements outside of the correct authorities.

KD345

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Given that the NTA control routes and timetables etc now why are DB making noise instead of going through the NTA? Seems counter-productive to allow (or give airtime to) DB to continue to make such statements outside of the correct authorities.

Because they are entitled to. That's how the process works. They can object as much as any other person or group.

The NTA may control the routes but they have shown no plans as to how buses will operate after the plaza opens. Dublin Bus are correct to express concern. As a company carrying over 400,000 passengers daily, I would think they are obliged to speak out at any move which could impact so many of their customers. As one of those customers I'm glad they have.

LXFlyer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Given that the NTA control routes and timetables etc now why are DB making noise instead of going through the NTA? Seems counter-productive to allow (or give airtime to) DB to continue to make such statements outside of the correct authorities.

The NTA may manage the network now, but they have damn all operations experience.

That's where the bus companies come in.

From the newspaper reports I've read the NTA also made a submission.

stop

Will the ABP submissions be made public?

LXFlyer

After they make their judgement I believe anyone can view them.

BonnieSituation

LXFlyer wrote: »

What routes would you suggest use it?

Bus routes that cross the river and end up over in that quadrant of the city. No?

Boulevardier

BTW, have other people noticed that pedestrians now have to wait much longer to cross College Green (nearest Grafton St) than was the case only a few weeks ago?

Dyr

Boulevardier wrote: »

BTW, have other people noticed that pedestrians now have to wait much longer to cross College Green (nearest Grafton St) than was the case only a few weeks ago?

Not surprised at all, theres a trend for screwing the pedestrian with recent changes. I suppose not being represented at any level by the interest groups gets you that

Spanish Eyes

Bambi wrote: »

Not surprised at all, theres a trend for screwing the pedestrian with recent changes. I suppose not being represented at any level by the interest groups gets you that

I don't want to sound bitter and twisted or anything, but I agree with you.

It has all been about buses, LUAS, cyclists, never a mention of walkers.

Anyway the paths have been widened on O'Connell Bridge and are due to be widened at Westmoreland Street, so I will give the benefit of the doubt.

In fact there are probably far more walkers than there are cyclists. But guess who has the bigger voice? Yup.

A pedestrian/walker group is needed now, since all other modes will be taken care of in time.

But let us wait and see.

buffalo

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

In fact there are probably far more walkers than there are cyclists. But guess who has the bigger voice?

The AA and the car park owners? :pac:

Dyr

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't want to sound bitter and twisted or anything, but I agree with you.

It has all been about buses, LUAS, cyclists, never a mention of walkers.

Anyway the paths have been widened on O'Connell Bridge and are due to be widened at Westmoreland Street, so I will give the benefit of the doubt.

In fact there are probably far more walkers than there are cyclists. But guess who has the bigger voice? Yup.

A pedestrian/walker group is needed now, since all other modes will be taken care of in time.

But let us wait and see.

take a look at the mroutes pedestrians have to take to cross the bridges that have been recently built, its fairly obvious they are at the bottom of the consideration pile. Dublin is now an awful city centre to walk around

BTW that NBRU guff is a good indication of how stuck in the 80s irish trade unions are, they do not have the first clue how to use online media without looking like clowns. I've bitter experience of this lol

Feckofff

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

A pedestrian/walker group is needed now, since all other modes will be taken care of in time.

Pedestrians definitely need some advocacy!

I follow justwalk on twitter
https://twitter.com/JustWalkNow?s=01
So there are like minded people out there.

monument

stop wrote: »

Will the ABP submissions be made public?

They are public right now, just not digital yet

You can get inspect and get copies of the submissions by visiting An Bord Pleanala or the city council offices. An Bord Pleanala told me this when I complained that the files were not online yet, and they also said that their are upgrading their IT systems.

Here's the further information request letter from ABP to the council:

Page 1: https://i2.wp.com/irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IMG_6765-e1503135724792.jpg
Page 2: https://i1.wp.com/irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IMG_6766-e1503135611777.jpg
Page 3: https://i2.wp.com/irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/IMG_6767-e1503135661770.jpg

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

Not surprised at all, theres a trend for screwing the pedestrian with recent changes. I suppose not being represented at any level by the interest groups gets you that

Well yeah, I mean, if you ignore the plaza project! But mostly, I agree - I do think that cyclists, pedestrians, and public transport are all helped by the same infrastructure, so helping one usually helps the other. The problem is that the car lobby is more aggressive and better funded than all three of those combined, and opposes most improvements because they tend to negatively impact cars.

Zebra3

buffalo wrote: »

The AA and the car park owners? :pac:

The AA's propaganda, I mean advertising, budget seems to get them a lot of airtime. It's a private company not some sort of motorists' representitive group yet gets loads of airtime as if they actually are.

Boulevardier

I also think there should be a forum (or at least thread) for discussing problems with Dublin traffic lights, including time given to pedestrians. I may try and start one.

Dyr

MJohnston wrote: »

Well yeah, I mean, if you ignore the plaza project! But mostly, I agree - I do think that cyclists, pedestrians, and public transport are all helped by the same infrastructure, so helping one usually helps the other. The problem is that the car lobby is more aggressive and better funded than all three of those combined, and opposes most improvements because they tend to negatively impact cars.

The plaza is still just a blueprint

Take a look at a lot of the traffic light junctions that have been put up around dublin in the last while, the pedestrian is treated as an inconvenience.

Stevek101

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Rerouting-of-services-using-Dawson-Street-/

We wish to advise customers that from Monday 11 September 2017, there will no longer be a right hand turn at the bottom of Dawson Street and as a result the below services will be rerouted.
Revised Routing
Routes 7b/d, 25x, 32x, 37, 39/a, 41x, 44, 61, 66x, 67x, 70, 84x, 116, 118 and 145
Normal route to Dawson Street, right onto Molesworth Street, Kildare Street, South Leinster Street and back on to normal route.
Routes 11, 38/a/b/d and 46a
Normal route to Dawson Street, left on to Nassau Street, Grafton Street, Westmoreland Street and back on to normal route.

Anyone figure out that routing?

MJohnston

Bambi wrote: »

The plaza is still just a blueprint

Take a look at a lot of the traffic light junctions that have been put up around dublin in the last while, the pedestrian is treated as an inconvenience.

Oh I agree, but it's usually only to the benefit of cars, and maybe buses. Things that inconvenience pedestrians generally also do the same for cyclists and some public transport.

Really, private car drivers are a privileged tiny minority in Dublin City that detract from the other forms of 'human movement' that account for a vast amount more people.

BonnieSituation

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Rerouting-of-services-using-Dawson-Street-/



Anyone figure out that routing?

Yeah.

You know that the section of street from where Molly Malone used to reside to College Green is the continuation of Grafton St?