College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

MJohnston

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Rerouting-of-services-using-Dawson-Street-/



Anyone figure out that routing?

Well for the first lot, I'm guessing that Kildare Street is being made two-way, so the detour will be tiny.

The second lot look like routes that used to turn right onto Nassau and then loop around Trinity via Pearse Street, then back to Westmoreland. This new routing will send them left onto Nassau instead, across College Green, and then right to Westmoreland. So a shorter route, I suppose.

Spanish Eyes

I haven't thought this one out properly, so forgive me.

Wouldn't it be good if Kildare Street was two way all the way. Buses coming off Stephen's Green could use it, turn right at the bottom and continue around to Westland Row, Pearse St, Tara Street and allow a right turn at OCB. Buses either go straight up South Quay or right into OCS.

OK, OK, I'm raving.... lol.

Stevek101

LUAS and two way traffic on Nassau Street, I didn't think there'd be room.

LXFlyer

Stevek101 wrote: »

LUAS and two way traffic on Nassau Street, I didn't think there'd be room.

That has been the plan all along and has been posted here (by me) multiple times.

Do people not read the actual plans - there was a whole consultation about this last year.

Kildare St is already two way for buses in its entirety and for general traffic from St Stephen's Green as far as Molesworth St, but putting bus stops there would cause too much congestion as it's a single lane northbound.

The gap in stops would be too great otherwise, hence the need to serve Dawson St (which are some of the busiest inbound stops on those routes in any case).

Stevek101

I had thought the 14 and 15 were routing that way, didn't remember about the 46a... But it is there in the plans alright.

https://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News-Archive/Major-changes-proposed-to-routes-using-College-Green-bus-corridor/

What I can't bus bay looks only big enough for 1 or maybe 2 on the plans. Most frequent route in the city using mainly VTs alongside the 14,15 and 3 minute LUAS. That's what I can't wrap my head around.

LXFlyer

The bus bays on Grafton St and College Green will only be for the 14 and 15.

The 46a stops on Westmoreland St.

This is still a work-in-progress - I expect many changes to happen yet as LUAS testing starts to eventually ramp up.

trellheim

I had thought the 37 and 39 would change to go in front of trinity and perhaps the 66/67 as well - anyone know why this particular split I can understand the 46a flagship but why the 38 for example

LXFlyer

It's nothing to do with flagship routes - it's quite simply where they go next.

Routes continuing to O'Connell Street revert to Grafton St while routes using the South Quays use Westland Row.

Ultimately there is a limit as to how many buses can share the space with the trams (and, for now, the taxis).

I think the 7b, 7d, 116 and 118 should also follow the 46a routing - it's only 7 buses in total.

Wheety

Stevek101 wrote: »

http://www.dublinbus.ie/News-Centre/General-News/Rerouting-of-services-using-Dawson-Street-/

We wish to advise customers that from Monday 11 September 2017, there will no longer be a right hand turn at the bottom of Dawson Street and as a result the below services will be rerouted.
Revised Routing
Routes 7b/d, 25x, 32x, 37, 39/a, 41x, 44, 61, 66x, 67x, 70, 84x, 116, 118 and 145
Normal route to Dawson Street, right onto Molesworth Street, Kildare Street, South Leinster Street and back on to normal route.
Routes 11, 38/a/b/d and 46a
Normal route to Dawson Street, left on to Nassau Street, Grafton Street, Westmoreland Street and back on to normal route.

Anyone figure out that routing?

I thought the 25x, 66x and 67x were also going to turn left at the bottom of Dawson Street? Are they only diverting via Molesworth Street and Kildare Street while the works are ongoing?

LXFlyer

Wheety wrote: »

I thought the 25x, 66x and 67x were also going to turn left at the bottom of Dawson Street? Are they only diverting via Molesworth Street and Kildare Street while the works are ongoing?

No - these are the new routings post-works.

Wheety

LXFlyer wrote: »

No - these are the new routings post-works.

Damn it. Would have shaved a good few minutes off my journey home, avoiding Westland Row and Pearse Street :mad:

LXFlyer

ABP have granted DCC an extension until October 20th next to supply the information that they requested on August 10th - namely a full assessment of the impact of their College Green Plaza proposals across the city.

That will push a decision on this even further back.

Muahahaha

Probably for the best all up. While Im in support of the proposal once it is done it will mean it is highly unlikely to be undone. Given that closing College Green off to traffic will mean a massive re-think in terms of bus routes it is important that they get this right.

prinzeugen

LXFlyer wrote: »

ABP have granted DCC an extension until October 20th next to supply the information that they requested on August 10th - namely a full assessment of the impact of their College Green Plaza proposals across the city.

That will push a decision on this even further back.

Good. The plaza is an idiotic idea anyway and hopefully it never happens.

Looking at the bus reroutes, it is going to hit non Luas users in D6 and further out the hardest. The 14/15/16 routes.

You would be as well scrapping the 16. The magical mystery tour it may take means it will be useless for getting to the airport on time.

devnull

prinzeugen wrote: »

Good. The plaza is an idiotic idea anyway and hopefully it never happens.

Looking at the bus reroutes, it is going to hit non Luas users in D6 and further out the hardest. The 14/15/16 routes.

You would be as well scrapping the 16. The magical mystery tour it may take means it will be useless for getting to the airport on time.

There are a lot more people that use the 16 than those going to the airport, and also the people who use the 16 between stops from the city center and Santry to travel to the airport can't avail of express buses and coaches.

LXFlyer

prinzeugen wrote: »

Good. The plaza is an idiotic idea anyway and hopefully it never happens.

Looking at the bus reroutes, it is going to hit non Luas users in D6 and further out the hardest. The 14/15/16 routes.

You would be as well scrapping the 16. The magical mystery tour it may take means it will be useless for getting to the airport on time.

It is planned that the 14 and 15 will revert to their traditional routing via St Stephen's Green, Dawson Street and Grafton Street, so I don't know you think they'll be adversely affected.

The main problem (from a city bus perspective) is the negative impact on the 9, 16 and 122, which are three core cross-city bus routes and which carry far more than just airport passengers as devnull points out, with very large cross-city usage as well as passengers travelling to/from the city centre.

The removal of the planned northbound bus lane on Parliament St rendered these plans unworkable (as they stand) in my view.

The secondary problem is the completely inadequate space facilities planned for the number of bus routes that would now have to terminate on Dame Street. Nowhere near enough space was provided for the number of buses that may be there at any one time.

ABP clearly feel that not enough work had been done by DCC in assessisng the overall impact of the scheme on traffic flows across the city - that is what is happening currently.

Consonata

prinzeugen wrote: »

Good. The plaza is an idiotic idea anyway and hopefully it never happens.

Because the City should only cater to the needs and whims of motor transport :rolleyes:

prinzeugen

Consonata wrote: »

Because the City should only cater to the needs and whims of motor transport :rolleyes:

OK. How do propose that less able people get around without motor transport?

Are you still living in the 1900's when horseless carriages first arrived and are you still scared of them?

MJohnston

prinzeugen wrote: »

OK. How do propose that less able people get around without motor transport?

The Luas, DART, and Commuter trains for a start.

I love Sean nos

MJohnston wrote: »

The Luas, DART, and Commuter trains for a start.

But, but, but...elderly and disabled.
Or something.

Kermit.de.frog

Not in favor of pedestrianisation of CG. We should widen the road for cars and put the Luas on a bridge here.

Building proper roads and providing adequate parking is the best choice. We need to stop pandering to the anti car lobby.

MJohnston

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not in favor of pedestrianisation of CG. We should widen the road for cars and put the Luas on a bridge here.

Building proper roads and providing adequate parking is the best choice. We need to stop pandering to the anti car lobby.

A bridge in College Green...please tell me you're parodying someone here

I love Sean nos

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

We should widen the road for cars.

Despite the fact that this has never worked before, I believe that this time it will.

cgcsb

The elderly/disabled line getting thrown in. Never mind the (much more common) elderly/disabled pedestrian who has all of 7 seconds of green time to cross chocobloc thoroughfares and pile themselves onto narrow congested footpaths

Calina

prinzeugen wrote: »

OK. How do propose that less able people get around without motor transport?

Are you still living in the 1900's when horseless carriages first arrived and are you still scared of them?

Where I live, on the continent, quite a lot of people in wheelchairs get around in the bus system.

I'm in favour of pedestrianising College Green in fact I'd like to see a little imagination and regeneration thrown at making the zone from Parnell Monument on Parnell Square to Grafton Street pedestrianised with just the tram going through it. O'Connell Street would be a stunning main square and unlike College Green, it's probably much more airy. This would involve a bit of imagination in terms of integrating all the transport modes, and doing something about the ticketing, and reconfiguring the busroutes to terminate at the quays.

It requires quite a lot of joined up thinking and probably a 10 year plan plus quite a bit of money. But I think it would be worth it. The College Green plans as they stand atm strike me as a "as little as we can get away with" type of project.

Calina

MJohnston wrote: »

A bridge in College Green...please tell me you're parodying someone here

Monorail?

Stephen15

Calina wrote: »

Monorail?

We don't need any old monorail we need a genuine bonafied, electrified, six car MONORAIL

devnull

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wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

OK. How do propose that less able people get around without motor transport?

Are you still living in the 1900's when horseless carriages first arrived and are you still scared of them?

I regularly see wheelchair users on the busses, they dont seem to be struggling too badly with it.

strassenwo!f

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Not in favor of pedestrianisation of CG. We should widen the road for cars and put the Luas on a bridge here.

That is a really terrible idea, and one has to wonder if you are joking. There are a number of important and beautiful buildings in College Green and a LUAS bridge across it would destroy the view of these.

It's bad enough that the authorities don't seem to have looked very seriously at alternatives to the overhead wires, if they looked at all.

Stephen15

strassenwo!f wrote: »

It's bad enough that the authorities don't seem to have looked very seriously at alternatives to the overhead wires, if they looked at all.

Overhead wires aren't really that bad. Luas OCS is subtle and blends in well with the streetscape and can also double as streetlights.

Its not Dublin CC looks like this since the OCS went up.

wakka12

Stephen15 wrote: »

Overhead wires aren't really that bad. Luas OCS is subtle and blends in well with the streetscape and can also double as streetlights.

Its not Dublin CC looks like this since the OCS went up.

Yeh I must say I think the cables Ive seen around stephens green along the route heading toward wicklow street are really quite nicely done..Dont think they could look much smarter really.

Carawaystick

wakka12 wrote: »

I regularly see wheelchair users on the busses, they dont seem to be struggling too badly with it.

What busses do you see wheelchair users on as opposed to a wheelchair user, given there are not multiple spaces for wheelchairs on busses?

brokenarms

Carawaystick wrote: »

What busses do you see wheelchair users on as opposed to a wheelchair user, given there are not multiple spaces for wheelchairs on busses?

I think we all know that Carawaystick.

What is your point? Is one space not enough?

Are you expecting a surge in wheelchair use in the next year?

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

What busses do you see wheelchair users on as opposed to a wheelchair user, given there are not multiple spaces for wheelchairs on busses?

I am really struggling to see what this irrelevant pedantry has to do with College Green?

But as posted above the newer vehicles have spaces for two wheelchairs or a wheelchair and a buggy, and I've been on some bus journeys where one wheelchair user has travelled for one part of the trip, and a second for another.

seamus

LXFlyer wrote: »

I am really struggling to see what this irrelevant pedantry has to do with College Green?

Because some people are making the erroneous claim that the Plaza will make life more difficult for the disabled and infirm.

When it's in fact the exact opposite. The elderly and infirm avoid the city because it's barely suitable for able-bodied to walk around safely, never mind those with special needs.

The Plaza will allow these people to disembark a bus or park a car and then actually get around part of the city with relative ease rather than having to get back in a vehicle to move around.

wakka12

Carawaystick wrote: »

What busses do you see wheelchair users on as opposed to a wheelchair user, given there are not multiple spaces for wheelchairs on busses?

yeh Ive never seen more than one wheelchair user on a bus. But Ive seen one user on dozens of bus rides that Ive been on

In other cities such as Vancouver Ive seen multiple commuters with severe disabilities (seem to be much more people with disabilities in canada than ireland idk why) using public transport services with relative ease. Seemed to be pretty common place for them

LXFlyer

seamus wrote: »

Because some people are making the erroneous claim that the Plaza will make life more difficult for the disabled and infirm.

When it's in fact the exact opposite. The elderly and infirm avoid the city because it's barely suitable for able-bodied to walk around safely, never mind those with special needs.

The Plaza will allow these people to disembark a bus or park a car and then actually get around part of the city with relative ease rather than having to get back in a vehicle to move around.

Whether an individual bus has one or two wheelchair locations isn't really relevant however. It's focussing on a minute point that really has little baring on whether the Plaza should be built or not.

As I've already posted without bringing in the northbound bus lane on Parliament St for routes 9, 16 and 122, I cannot see this Plaza happening (as currently designed). That's the real issue at the moment.

I love Sean nos

An interesting piece on how to change a city from a "car warehouse". This college green plan and probably all plans for Dublin lack ambition.

MJohnston

Ambition isn't what is lacking necessarily, it's balls - nobody in charge seems to have the courage to stand up to the car park and AA type lobbies that constantly dismantle ambitious pedestrian (and public transport and bicycle) friendly plans.

wakka12

I love Sean nos wrote: »

An interesting piece on how to change a city from a "car warehouse". This college green plan and probably all plans for Dublin lack ambition.

How is college green not an ambitious plan? Converting a busy city centre area which a vast amount of cars and busses pass through into a pedestrianised area is quite a biggie imo, but is totally worth it for general quality of life in the city and for cultural worth.

Shedite27

wakka12 wrote: »

How is college green not an ambitious plan? Converting a busy city centre area which a vast amount of cars and busses pass through into a pedestrianised area is quite a biggie imo, but is totally worth it for general quality of life in the city and for cultural worth.

Yeah definitely don't think you can call it lacking ambition. Up there with "pedestrianize Grafton Street" in terms of ambition/impact

KD345

Ambition is to be admired, but to implement something which may negatively affect the lives of thousands of commuters daily needs to be thought through properly. Despite having years to do this, no proper plans or impact assement has been carried out. Until the city can find alternative solutions to the traffic flow and bus operation I don't believe this project should proceed. Thankfully, there does seem to be various assements now taking place, but it is shocking that we are literally weeks away from a full Luas Cross City service and there have been no traffic plans presented to the public on College Green.

MJohnston

KD345 wrote: »

Ambition is to be admired, but to implement something which may negatively affect the lives of thousands of commuters daily needs to be thought through properly. Despite having years to do this, no proper plans or impact assement has been carried out. Until the city can find alternative solutions to the traffic flow and bus operation I don't believe this project should proceed. Thankfully, there does seem to be various assements now taking place, but it is shocking that we are literally weeks away from a full Luas Cross City service and there have been no traffic plans presented to the public on College Green.

I would note that I think the ambition with the Plaza would have been far more workable and practical had said motorist lobbying groups not disrupted the plans for public transport only areas around O'Connell Bridge. Without those changes, I can't see how the Plaza has a hope of working without disruption to buses, but this is what those motoring groups want.

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I would note that I think the ambition with the Plaza would have been far more workable and practical had said motorist lobbying groups not disrupted the plans for public transport only areas around O'Connell Bridge. Without those changes, I can't see how the Plaza has a hope of working without disruption to buses, but this is what those motoring groups want.

The fundamental issue is the removal of the planned northbound bus lane on Parliament St (due to local concerns) and the ludicrous alternative routes that were proposed.

Without that route, three of the busiest cross-city routes in the city become unusable - that will scupper the plaza plans more than anything else.

I love Sean nos

Shedite27 wrote: »

Yeah definitely don't think you can call it lacking ambition. Up there with "pedestrianize Grafton Street" in terms of ambition/impact

You're right. It's right up there with a plan from four decades ago to pedestrianise one entire street. All at once too. Very ambitious. Like putting a man on the moon or something.

MJohnston

LXFlyer wrote: »

The fundamental issue is the removal of the planned northbound bus lane on Parliament St (due to local concerns) and the ludicrous alternative routes that were proposed.

Without that route, three of the busiest cross-city routes in the city become unusable - that will scupper the plaza plans more than anything else.

Sure, but I guess I would package the capitulation on Parliament Street up with the other massive compromises to the Quays traffic plan, which have essentially made the plaza unworkable from a bus perspective.

MJohnston

I love Sean nos wrote: »

You're right. It's right up there with a plan from four decades ago to pedestrianise one entire street. All at once too. Very ambitious. Like putting a man on the moon or something.

What sort of ambition would you like to have seen for the plaza that you didnt?

TherapyBoy

As someone who loves driving, loves his car, considers himself primarily a motorist & who drives everywhere I hated this idea. It's too small, they need to bite the bullet & think bigger.

Pedestrianise the entire city centre, from Parnell Square to Stephens Green & from the Custom House to Capel Street (as a minimum). No cars, buses, taxis, etc within this area, just pedestrians & the Luas. I'd stop cross-city bus routes, try to stop any cross-city car traffic, move all multi-story car parks to the edges of the pedestrian zone & tie them into Luas routes. Have designated taxi pick-up areas near the edges. Everyone would bitch & moan but within a few years we'd have a fantastic clean, quiet, pedestrian city centre. So we have to park a kilometre or two outside the city & Luas or walk the rest of the way, we'd get over it and maybe be a bit healthier for it.

I love Sean nos

MJohnston wrote: »

What sort of ambition would you like to have seen for the plaza that you didnt?

I think TherapyBoy has provided the detail. I'd like to see something more than just the botched pedestrianisation of one street. Also for it to happen quicker. This thread is open for long enough. What has actually been done?