College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

MJohnston

I'd like to see a wider pedestrianisation of Dublin city centre too (although I'm not sure I agree with the geographical extents of TherapyBoy's idea), but I think it would be foolish to assume that a lack of ambition is behind this currently only being a plan to pedestrianise College Green.

Realistically, there's absolutely no chance that DCC would be able to implement city centre wide pedestrianisation in one go, and it absolutely must be broken up into individual, gradual processes. You might call that unambitious, I'd call it politically pragmatic.

As to why it hasn't happened quicker? Well, honestly, a year and half in planning doesn't really sound like much to me for a civic scheme like this, but the reason is because there are too many vested interests trying to prevent it from happening, and there are a lot of legitimate concerns from Dublin Bus. The knock on effect of parts of the Quays Traffic Plan not becoming reality is that this plaza is also significantly less practical too, and I truly doubt we'll see it happen.

Dyr

How do you deal with deliveries? because that's what chokes up most of the bus lanes even if you don't have pedestrianization

I'm starting to think that physical segregation of pedestrian spaces from traffic might be a good idea, even without the precaution against islamic nuttiness apect.

AndrewJRenko

Bambi wrote: »

How do you deal with deliveries? because that's what chokes up most of the bus lanes even if you don't have pedestrianization

Here's one option;

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/nov/18/innovative-delivery-system-transforming-gothenburg-roads

Consonata

I'd imagine theres an issue with a lack of imagination within the DCC as well as one lack of motivation.

There are probably a number of ways to rectify this, but the implementation of a directly elected Dublin Mayor, merging all the councils together into one unified area would be a start honestly. One where a Mayor can run on a platform of fundamental change to the living lifestyle in the City. This would be ideal, instead of a patch job here and there and a "sure it'll be grand" attitude the current DCC has. Its the main reason why Grafton Street pedestrianization faced so many roadblocks, why college green has not been done already, and why arguably transport infrastructure in the City is such an utter failure.

AlekSmart

Bambi wrote: »

How do you deal with deliveries? because that's what chokes up most of the bus lanes even if you don't have pedestrianization

I'm starting to think that physical segregation of pedestrian spaces from traffic might be a good idea, even without the precaution against islamic nuttiness apect.

Quite correct...since the commencement of BXD testing,the risk quotient has increased substantially for ALL road users in the City Centre area.

Once Blue Line operations commence,that factor will increase yet again at the Platforms.

It should also be borne in mind that at several new Tram Stops,the "Live" side of the Tram will change,introducing a risk of a "Wrong-Side" Door Operation scenario,with potentially disasterous results. (There may be an automated system available to prevent this,but I am uncertain that it is specified on the new Alstom units).

The sad reality is that the BXD system has been rather crudely overlaid across the map of An Lár,with scarce planning or investment applied to the pre-existing modes (except,naturally,the Multi-Storey Car Park industry,whose business model continues to be fully maintained and supported).

Rather than wandering aimlessly through a 15 year design,construction and implimentation phase,before asking "What are we doing with the oul Buses,Boss ? ".....the responsible agencies should & could have devised and prepared a pre-agreed system plan catering for the Bus Network BEFORE turning a single sod on the BXD project.

What we are now facing (from December 8th's "Blue Line Day") is a tragi-comedic situation in which nobody appears to be in charge of,or responsible for,the OVERALL Public Transport Situation within Dublin City.

As it stands,all of the Great'N Good are standing back with fingers crossed and breath held in the hope that everything will work-out...and carefully attempting to have a target,to point the finger at,should it not :mad:

LXFlyer

AlekSmart wrote: »

Once Blue Line operations commence,that factor will increase yet again at the Platforms.

It should also be borne in mind that at several new Tram Stops,the "Live" side of the Tram will change,introducing a risk of a "Wrong-Side" Door Operation scenario,with potentially disasterous results. (There may be an automated system available to prevent this,but I am uncertain that it is specified on the new Alstom units).

Just to correct you Alek - LUAS BXD be the Green Line. It's merely an extension of the existing Green Line - there is no "Blue Line".

Secondly both lines already have tram stops on the other side to the majority of stops (Busaras on the Red Line and Harcourt on the Green Line) and this has operated for years with no issue.

I think that's a red herring to be honest.

MrMorooka

Decision from An Bord Pleanala delayed to allow another public consultation.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2017/1103/917282-college-green-dublin/

trellheim

theres many things at issue with this but lack of public consultation isnt one of them , anyone got the inside track on it ?

Podge_irl

Is more public consultation going to be anything other than a chance for the car parks to moan again?

trellheim

yes but we can take that as read. This is ABP we're talking about not DCC

monument

trellheim wrote: »

theres many things at issue with this but lack of public consultation isnt one of them , anyone got the inside track on it ?

It seems the extra info provided by the council prompted the extra consultation — if ABP is right here the extra info is big.

(...or maybe just something we all knew but which was left out of the original consultation)

ThisRegard

I thought they raised concerns as to the broader effect the removal of buses from the green would have as one of the reasons going back for consultation.

dfx-

Whatever stops or helps delay the constriction of the key pinchpoint of public transport in Dublin can only be a good thing.

orangerhyme

If it's simply not possible to pedestrian the entire college green/dame Street plaza, then I'd be happy enough with reduction of traffic to one lane each way and general spruce up of the area with wider pavements, remove clutter etc.

If this project will cause city center traffic to come to a standstill, maybe it's not worth it.

MJohnston

dfx- wrote: »

Whatever stops or helps delay the constriction of the key pinchpoint of public transport in Dublin can only be a good thing.

Well that constriction is opening for service on December 15th, plaza or no!

bk

MOD: Please non of this "fixed your post" stuff. If you disagree with someone, fine, say it, but no need to put words in other people mouths, thanks

KD345

The news last week was not surprising. The lack of consideration for the impact on bus services was too severe to ignore. The council really only have themselves to blame on this, they should have planned everything correctly before proceeding. Instead, we got a confusing set of plans involving the north quays, cycle lanes, Parliament Street disputes, bus maps which didn't make sense etc.

Surely before any more consultations take place we need to be shown exactly what this plaza means for the surrounding areas and the traffic flows.

cgcsb

Wasn't the pedestrianisation contingent on removing the straight through for cars on Bachelors walk and having a two way bus corridor on Parliament st, which of course can't happen because of objections.?

trellheim

Wasn't the pedestrianisation contingent on removing the straight through for cars on Bachelors walk and having a two way bus corridor on Parliament st, which of course can't happen because of objections.?

No.

Bachelors walk-Eden Quay straight ahead was not a necessity for the Plaza. However no-one can see how the LUAS can work with it , given that they cannot stop on the bridge, so really a thing for BXD

A two-way bus corridor was not necessary for the plaza but no-one could see how any sort of bus service could be maintained without one.

The real issue (as I've said before )

1. Quays Cycleway
2. BXD Changes
3. Plaza

should all really be tied up in a single implementation covering DB, traffic and DCC.

We will be getting piecemeal crap for months ...

Spanish Eyes

I don't think they should give up so easily on this project. I know it is with ABP at the moment so let's keep an open mind.

I know this is going to sound absolutely ridiculous to some, but is there any way a "mock up" of the proposed Plaza could be tested re the bus routes?

After BXD is up and running, test out the theories for cross city buses as if the plaza/pedestrianisation was in operation. Maybe they will try that.

I dunno, just throwing it out there.

orangerhyme

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I don't think they should give up so easily on this project. I know it is with ABP at the moment so let's keep an open mind.

I know this is going to sound absolutely ridiculous to some, but is there any way a "mock up" of the proposed Plaza could be tested re the bus routes?

After BXD is up and running, test out the theories for cross city buses as if the plaza/pedestrianisation was in operation. Maybe they will try that.

I dunno, just throwing it out there.

Its a good idea, I'd imagine they could run computer models with data etc also

AlekSmart

orangerhyme wrote: »

Its a good idea, I'd imagine they could run computer models with data etc also

The major problem with this approach is it required to be carried out Before the BXD project works began....long before.

Having spent some €750 Million already,it is surely fraught with danger for the various "Authorities" to be now wondering aloud as to whether other elements of Dublins Public Transport can remain functional alongside BXD.

Each one of the "Stakeholders" was allowed to ramble off and do their own thing,with some vague expectation that,in the future, they would all arrive at the same destination together........:eek:

Germanz,we sure ain't.....:rolleyes:

orangerhyme

AlekSmart wrote: »

The major problem with this approach is it required to be carried out Before the BXD project works began....long before.

Having spent some €750 Million already,it is surely fraught with danger for the various "Authorities" to be now wondering aloud as to whether other elements of Dublins Public Transport can remain functional alongside BXD.

Each one of the "Stakeholders" was allowed to ramble off and do their own thing,with some vague expectation that,in the future, they would all arrive at the same destination together........:eek:

Germanz,we sure ain't.....:rolleyes:

Yeah it seems a no brainer that the college green plaza, Liffey cycle, Busconnects and Luas cross city would all be planned together and various models trialled to test options but it seems not.

orangerhyme

The Luas route was finalized back in 2011

Spanish Eyes

This clusterfk makes an absolute joke of "planning applications" and public consultation, environmental impact and all the rest of it that abounds now with any major infrastructural project.

I take the point that the testing of the Plaza should have happened long before now WRT to bus traffic at the very least. It didn't happen. Something wasn't done, whether by accident or design I don't know.

So all I was thinking of was a test run as part of the public consultation before ABP makes its decision.

DCC don't come out well from this. What were they thinking, nothing was planned re BXD except to get it up and running, as we can now see.

prinzeugen

orangerhyme wrote: »

Its a good idea, I'd imagine they could run computer models with data etc also

The big problem with computer models is that they do not reflect and can not predict real human behaviour.

Models are useless you have all the data. Otherwise its just a sample.

We threw the computer model plans out the window where I work as it did not reflect what people actually did.

Thats why we can get 50,000 people away in 30- 45 mins now.

I think they are right to put this on hold. Until the Luas starts running with the longer trams, nobody will know what impact it will have on the traffic.

I am surprised they have not lengthened a tram to the length of the new ones to test what impact it will have on traffic of all sorts on the quays.

One prediction I have is that the wide cyclelane at the BOI on College Green will be put back over to Bus use.

Was never a fan of the idea anyway.

AlekSmart

prinzeugen wrote: »

The big problem with computer models is that they do not reflect and can not predict real human behaviour.

Models are useless you have all the data. Otherwise its just a sample.

We threw the computer model plans out the window where I work as it did not reflect what people actually did.

Thats why we can get 50,000 people away in 30- 45 mins now.

I think they are right to put this on hold. Until the Luas starts running with the longer trams, nobody will know what impact it will have on the traffic.

I am surprised they have not lengthened a tram to the length of the new ones to test what impact it will have on traffic of all sorts on the quays.

One prediction I have is that the wide cyclelane at the BOI on College Green will be put back over to Bus use.

Was never a fan of the idea anyway.

There are two elephants in this room.

The very obvious one of Tram Length,which few appar to consider of note.

The second,as Prinzeugen spots,is Human Behaviour.

Tram loads of Tram people being herded on and off in locations such as Westmoreland and O'Connell Streets,will adopt behaviours that require control.

DCC's policies,currently,avoid anything like physical measures to control such movements.....It will be interesting to see how long DCC's "model" can be maintained :rolleyes:

monument

AlekSmart wrote: »

DCC's policies,currently,avoid anything like physical measures to control such movements.....It will be interesting to see how long DCC's "model" can be maintained :rolleyes:

I’m not sure what your :rolleyes: is for there — as has already been pointed out, it is national policy to reduce the use of pedestrian barriers.

There’s simular policies in place with Transport for London, the UK DoT, and other places around Europe have stated to use them less or never started to use them in a big way in the first place.

Dyr

I noticed on Friday they were testing trams again around college plaza and again, blocking multiple pedestrian junctions at once. Nearly caused a pedestrian who foolishly lost patience and tried to go around the luas. he was crushed up against the crowd barriers. Driver never even noticed

If you look at the layout of some of the junctions it's obvious that they're trying to funnel pedestrians so their only route is through the pedestrian junctions. It's an unfriendly design and it's going to become dangerous if they keep blocking those junctions

trellheim

I am surprised they have not lengthened a tram to the length of the new ones to test what impact it will have on traffic of all sorts on the quays.

they dont have them yet do they and you need to do full rush hour testing intersected with Red Line peaks .... Oh and look its all gonna happen with an IE strike and the lead up to Xmas AND WITH NO PLAZA so unexpected buses pushing through from Dame St . bets on the opening being delayed to January ?

fk me this is going to be hilarious

Shedite27

AlekSmart wrote: »

The second,as Prinzeugen spots,is Human Behaviour.

Tram loads of Tram people being herded on and off in locations such as Westmoreland and O'Connell Streets,will adopt behaviours that require control.

Why do you think that matters? A longer tram will have more doors so still the same number of people to get in/out per door per stop.

I could understand if it was a longer bus with just the one entrance spot.

trellheim

because the general principle in most trams stops today is to just walk across the street - the big city stops like Heuston , SSG , Abbey St, Jervis , Busaras are all reasonably low traffic in their local areas


OCS and Westmoreland are very different. as people want to toddle to Henry St and Talbot St , or Temple Bar. crossing very very busy road junctions.

Surprised that the risk assessment for Westmoreland in particular hasnt needed to be revised based on the plaza not opening. Although it might have been - how would we know

AlekSmart

Shedite27 wrote: »

Why do you think that matters? A longer tram will have more doors so still the same number of people to get in/out per door per stop.

I could understand if it was a longer bus with just the one entrance spot.

In this instance,the Tram Length is irrelevant,however the orientation and location of the TramStop is very relevant.

The Westmoreland Street and O Connell Street stops are of particular interest when one factors in bi directional cycle & traffic flow and footfall.

Muahahaha

Saw on irishcycle.com that DCC have released further information about the Plaza
http://irishcycle.com/2017/11/17/fresh-consultation-on-college-green-plaza-starts/

MrMorooka

West Hotel Trading Company Ltd. are of the opinion that taxis should be permitted to use College Green at all times. They believe that taxis, as a minimum, should be able to use
College Green during inter-peak hours, and particularly during evenings, when accessibility
by vehicular traffic will increase natural surveillance and security in this large open area.

This is some of the worst drivel I have read. That's the Westbury hotel, isn't it?

AlekSmart

MrMorooka wrote: »

This is some of the worst drivel I have read. That's the Westbury hotel, isn't it?

This is far from Drivel,particularly in the rareified atmosphere inhabited by these people.
There is a very close ...erm..."Working Relationship" between the likes of the Westbury's front of house and the Taxi fraternity,in which backs are constantly being scratched in order to cater for the whim's of the Hotel's clients.

MrMorooka

Oh yeah, of course the hotel is interested in appeasing taxi drivers, I get that. What's drivel is the idea that a large, busy plaza full of people(two minutes from a garda station, no less) needs the gracious presence of cars to supervise the goings on and provide 'safety'. It's a hilarious attempt at justification.

MJohnston

Notable I suppose that they're essentially offering a compromise that most would be happy with though - taxi access off-peak only. That gives DCC an opportunity to look like they're meeting parties in the middle, while still doing most of the right thing.

MrMorooka

MJohnston wrote: »

Notable I suppose that they're essentially offering a compromise that most would be happy with though - taxi access off-peak only. That gives DCC an opportunity to look like they're meeting parties in the middle, while still doing most of the right thing.

DCC already replied though dismissing the hotel's concern, and it's quite sensible :

The inclusion of taxis traveling east-west on college green would fundamentally undermine the concept of a pedestrian priority civic space, a specific objective of the Dublin City Development Plan 2016-2022 (Dublin City Council, 2016c: p.67)

So fair play to them on that point.

To be clear, I was reading http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/MajorTransportProjects/CollegeGreen/4.%20Other%20issues%20raised.pdf

MJohnston

MrMorooka wrote: »

DCC already replied though dismissing the hotel's concern, and it's quite sensible :



So fair play to them on that point.

To be clear, I was reading http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/MajorTransportProjects/CollegeGreen/4.%20Other%20issues%20raised.pdf

Oh, I guess I was reading that wrong - nobody should be going east-west if a plaza is going to happen. I also don't think taxis should be able to go north-south either though, and they should start both restrictions ASAP, because they need it because of Luas CC, not the plaza.

cgcsb

MJohnston wrote: »

Notable I suppose that they're essentially offering a compromise that most would be happy with though - taxi access off-peak only. That gives DCC an opportunity to look like they're meeting parties in the middle, while still doing most of the right thing.

Struggling to think when exactly College Green is 'off-peak' it's always jammed with pedestrians.

Sierra Oscar

New setback to plans for €10m College Green plaza

Public hearing postponed due to errors in November newspaper notice from council


The development of a €10 million civic plaza at Dublin’s College Green could be significantly delayed following the cancellation of a public hearing scheduled to take place next week.

Ah lads, this is not good.

wakka12

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

New setback to plans for €10m College Green plaza



Ah lads, this is not good.

Yeh Ive kind of lost hope in this happening since the initial delays. We just don't have good enough transport infrastructure yet to justify making such big changes/sacrifices to existing transport

AlekSmart

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh Ive kind of lost hope in this happening since the initial delays. We just don't have good enough transport infrastructure yet to justify making such big changes/sacrifices to existing transport

It does indicate a belated awakening of commonsense at some level in the Administrative Quagmire which is Dublin City.

I am somewhat amused,however, at the reported comments of Owen Keegan...

Council chief executive Owen Keegan has criticised Dublin Bus and the Dublin Chamber of Commerce for reversing their previous support for the project.

Mr Keegan told The Irish Times he was “personally” disappointed they were no longer supporting the council’s plans, which he said were vital to ensure the smooth running of the Luas.

‘Very, very disappointing’

“I am quite disappointed that while there was an initial very positive reaction to the proposal for a plaza at College Green, a significant number of submissions from people who were initially in favour are now against it. Some of them, I mean Dublin Bus, the chamber of commerce, very, very surprising. It is very, very disappointing,” he said.

“The suggestion that we can run buses east and west and sustain a reliable high-quality Luas cross city and a high level of pedestrian priority at city centre signals? It just can’t be done – and I think the evidence of the first week of the Luas supports that.”

It is somewhat ironic that Mr Keegan,a senior administrator with a long and distinguished career of no little medicority,adopts this high-moral-ground when referring to the daily travel arrrangements of hundreds of thousands of Bus Users.

It would suggest that he has a significant distaste for Bus Users to the extent of wishing substantial hardship upon them,as he appears to want to dismantle the already rickety public transport "infrastructure" which exists under his governance.

I very much hope that this is the end of this ludicrious plan,which offers little positive to Dubliners,but carries immense downsides for vast numbers of people attempting to traverse this area to access OTHER parts of the same City.

It is equally interesting that Mr Keegan refers to Pedestrian Signals,as under his stewardship the sequencing and timing of those signals throughout the City Centre,has altered to facilitate often non-existent pedestrian flows,something which became very apparent when the Cross City Luas began operations.

The entire Luas BXD programme has culminated in the most frustratingly apparent Transport Compromise,in which all of the previous modes have lost out,as the very obvious lack of physical space now ensures that NONE of those previous elements are capable of operating at realistic service levels.

Quite what methods Mr Keegan and his backers will adopt,in order to make this base-metal appear gold,will be very interesting to observe,but going on his past track record,particularly in and around Dun Laoighaire,it will not bode well for Dublin city Centre at all.

I note,as of Today,that the CIE Chairman's position is available for applications,perhaps Mr Keegan will put himself forward for it,and therefore spare the Capital City any further repercussions of his ingenuity ?

hmmm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Ah lads, this is not good.

Someone needs to be held accountable for this. The lives of thousands of commuters are being disrupted, and they can't get basic documentation together.

Synode

hmmm wrote: »

Someone needs to be held accountable for this. The lives of thousands of commuters are being disrupted, and they can't get basic documentation together.

How are they being disrupted?

AndrewJRenko

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is equally interesting that Mr Keegan refers to Pedestrian Signals,as under his stewardship the sequencing and timing of those signals throughout the City Centre,has altered to facilitate often non-existent pedestrian flows,something which became very apparent when the Cross City Luas began operations.

Are you suggesting that there aren't large volumes of pedestrian flows in the city centre? And how exactly did the Luas CC operation make this apparent?

Sierra Oscar

Dublin City Council are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green.

Traffic restrictions to follow shelving of plaza hearing

I foresee a major row over this if they try and enforce new traffic restrictions prior to the An Bord Pleanála hearing taking place (which we don't have a date for).

LeinsterDub

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Dublin City Council are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green.

Traffic restrictions to follow shelving of plaza hearing

I foresee a major row over this if they try and enforce new traffic restrictions prior to the An Bord Pleanála hearing taking place (which we don't have a date for).

Do Dublin Bus have any power of appeal?

hmmm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Dublin City Council are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green.

Where/when was it decided that LUAS was the primary public transport system in the city, and all other forms of PT would be sacrificed to accommodate it?

Also, reducing pedestrian priority seems like an utterly retrograde step.