College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

buffalo

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Dublin City Council are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green.

Traffic restrictions to follow shelving of plaza hearing

Where in the article does it say that DCC are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green!?

Tow

buffalo wrote: »

Where in the article does it say that DCC are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green!?

It was on RTE 1 this morning.

While there may be a consultancy, people seem to confuse this with democratic process. In the end of the day DCC (aka Mr Keegan) will do whatever they see fit, providing it is in their (his) power.

AngryLips

This delay all stems from some bizarre decision to not facilitate two way traffic on Parliament Street. I actually can't believe that people responsible and elected officials bought into that narrative about Parliament Street not being suitable. DB were on board with College Green Plaza until Parliament Street became a stumbling block. The argument that an EIS is needed to run a few buses down a street that already gets some serious vehicular traffic in the city centre is frankly ridiculous.

Phil.x

This LCC is and will be a total disaster when the bigger trams come online, and even then it will only cater for a limited amount of people but will cause a maximum amount of disruption for most.

DCC are hell bent on giving this low capacity transport the VIP treatment at the expense of the majority of people who come into the city centre.
The people who signed off on this lcc should be fired.

donvito99

Phil.x wrote: »

This LCC is and will be a total disaster when the bigger trams come online, and even then it will only cater for a limited amount of people but will cause a maximum amount of disruption for most.

DCC are hell bent on giving this low capacity transport the VIP treatment at the expense of the majority of people who come into the city centre.
The people who signed off on this lcc should be fired.

Out if curiosity, how many passengers are accommodated on DB east west thru College Green in the am/pm?

If it doesn't exceed 9000ish pph then its DB that needs to go.

Zipppy

AndrewJRenko wrote:

Are you suggesting that there aren't large volumes of pedestrian flows in the city centre? And how exactly did the Luas CC operation make this apparent?

Have the very same questions in my head? Sure there's barely room on most city centre pavements for pedestrians.. place is jammed..

AngryLips wrote:

This delay all stems from some bizarre decision to not facilitate two way traffic on Parliament Street. I actually can't believe that people responsible and elected officials bought into that narrative about Parliament Street not being suitable. DB were on board with College Green Plaza until Parliament Street became a stumbling block. The argument that an EIS is needed to run a few buses down a street that already gets some serious vehicular traffic in the city centre is frankly ridiculous.

Parliament st runs up to city hall..its a lovely street with a lot less traffic than you might think.. a two way bus lane would destroy it..imagine thousands of buses turning right/left at city hall? Madness..street should be pedestrianised

Dyr

hmmm wrote: »

Where/when was it decided that LUAS was the primary public transport system in the city, and all other forms of PT would be sacrificed to accommodate it?

Also, reducing pedestrian priority seems like an utterly retrograde step.

Pedestrians have been getting the bums rush for some time now

BowSideChamp

donvito99 wrote: »

Out if curiosity, how many passengers are accommodated on DB east west thru College Green in the am/pm?

If it doesn't exceed 9000ish pph then its DB that needs to go.

Recession Figures (2015):

6,000 buses
7,000 cyclists
40,000 pedestrians
18,000 taxis
http://www.ihf.ie/sites/default/files/upload/2015_06_dublin_city_centre_transport_study_-_25th_june_2015.pdf


Obviously the most inefficient use of space is taxis & should be restricted asap.

nilescraneo

Article said they want to ban the busses passing in front of trinity coming to and from Nassau Street, not block the services currently using Dame Street. Either way, taxi's and cars will have to go asap.

Total balls up and lack of planning, which is no surprise.

prinzeugen

Mr Keegan should be removed from his job. It is clear he hates anything that has an internal combustion engine and his recent comments are like a child throwing the toys from a pram when they can not get what they want.

Look at Dún Laoghaire. Its a ghost town thanks to him.

And he wants to do the same to Dublin City Centre.

He needs to get off his bike and take as bus during the day to see what is like for people that NEED the bus.

Public transport is there for everyone. Not just commuters doing the 9-5 job.

prinzeugen

nilescraneo wrote: »

Either way, taxi's and cars will have to go asap.

Why? Ban cargo bikes as well then. They take up the length of a car and are slower to accelerate from a stop.

AndrewJRenko

prinzeugen wrote: »

Mr Keegan should be removed from his job. It is clear he hates anything that has an internal combustion engine and his recent comments are like a child throwing the toys from a pram when they can not get what they want.

Look at Dún Laoghaire. Its a ghost town thanks to him.

And he wants to do the same to Dublin City Centre.

He needs to get off his bike and take as bus during the day to see what is like for people that NEED the bus.

Public transport is there for everyone. Not just commuters doing the 9-5 job.

Are you a frequent user of buses through College Green?

Cookie_Monster

prinzeugen wrote: »

Why? Ban cargo bikes as well then. They take up the length of a car and are slower to accelerate from a stop.

how many cargo bikes compared to cars travel through there on average a day?

AlekSmart

prinzeugen wrote: »

Mr Keegan should be removed from his job. It is clear he hates anything that has an internal combustion engine and his recent comments are like a child throwing the toys from a pram when they can not get what they want.

Look at Dún Laoghaire. Its a ghost town thanks to him.

And he wants to do the same to Dublin City Centre.

He needs to get off his bike and take as bus during the day to see what is like for people that NEED the bus.

Public transport is there for everyone. Not just commuters doing the 9-5 job.

It could be argued,that following a less than positive period as DCC's "Director of Traffic,and at the helm of DLRCC,Mr Keegan's suitability for the ultimate DCC position was less than certain.

However,for whatever reason,those responsible for selecting the Chief Executive of Irelands Capital City,appear to aspire more towards the "safe pair of hands" mediocrity level,rather than searching for creative,challenging or otherwise competent candidates.

Mind you,this trait is very evident throughout Irish Public Administration,so I may be a tad harsh in my opinion on the DCC selection committee.

When one witnesses the likes of Phil Hogan,John Tierney and their old school chums,being held up as standard bearers for Irish Adiministrative acumen,then we can rest assured that the Country actually is fcu*#ed.

In administrative terms,we have an unerring ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory,a process which Dublin City is currently undergoing a glorious technicolour !

nilescraneo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Why? Ban cargo bikes as well then. They take up the length of a car and are slower to accelerate from a stop.

Seriously? How many cargo bikes block the luas tracks at yellow box junctions or stop dead in the middle of the street to pick up or drop off passengers with no regard for trams and buses?

buffalo

Tow wrote: »

It was on RTE 1 this morning.

Link please? Seems like FUD to be.

AngryLips

AlekSmart wrote: »

It could be argued,that following a less than positive period as DCC's "Director of Traffic,and at the helm of DLRCC,Mr Keegan's suitability for the ultimate DCC position was less than certain

How is this his doing? His policies are progressive, it's the political resistance that got us into this mess as it is.

MJohnston

The most common cargo bikes (which I don't think I've seen anymore than 1 or 2 of in Dublin) are about 215cm in length. The smallest car commonly seen around is probably a Smart Fortwo, and that's 250cm in its smallest configuration. Of course that car is also 150cm in width, whereas a cargo bike is only 80cm...the premise of that whole argument is completely inaccurate.

magicbastarder

Difficulties with College Green plan all too predictable

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/difficulties-with-college-green-plan-all-too-predictable-1.3346061

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

Mr Keegan should be removed from his job. It is clear he hates anything that has an internal combustion engine and his recent comments are like a child throwing the toys from a pram when they can not get what they want.

Look at Dún Laoghaire. Its a ghost town thanks to him.

And he wants to do the same to Dublin City Centre.

He needs to get off his bike and take as bus during the day to see what is like for people that NEED the bus.

Public transport is there for everyone. Not just commuters doing the 9-5 job.

Dun Laoghaire is a ghost town because of larger out of town shopping centres primarily Dundrum and Carrickmines and the fact the shops there were all fairly crap not because of Owen Keegan.

wakka12

Stephen15 wrote: »

Dun Laoghaire is a ghost town because of larger out of town shopping centres primarily Dundrum and Carrickmines and the fact the shops there were all fairly crap not because of Owen Keegan.

What part of Dun laoghaire? The main street and shopping centre are indeed a ghost town( DLSC should honestly be demolished and yturned into a number of small ground floor retail units and apartments on top), but the pier and park and promenade by whether spoons and the library are all extremely lively whenever I visit

MJohnston

Yeah, Dun Laoghaire is so much nicer than it is used to be, and certainly when the sun is out it's a lot busier too. Certainly wouldn't call it a ghost town, I'm sure it largely hibernates in the winter but that's about it.

donvito99

Does Owen Keegan have any say in the DLRCC, or is he ex-DLRCC?

Zipppy

donvito99 wrote:

Does Owen Keegan have any say in the DLRCC, or is he ex-DLRCC?

No input...except all city and county managers are buddies.. There's even the CCMA City and County Managers Assoc.

Stephen15

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah, Dun Laoghaire is so much nicer than it is used to be, and certainly when the sun is out it's a lot busier too. Certainly wouldn't call it a ghost town, I'm sure it largely hibernates in the winter but that's about it.

It certainly is around the library and the East Pier are nice the area around the DART station, Marine Road and the Town Hall aren't too bad either. DLSC is a dump and needs to be knocked down, anything South of McDonald's on Upper George's is completely dead as is anything North of Argos on Lower George's Street likewise. Patrick's Street and any street off George's Street is even more dead.

bk

Dun Laoghaire got hit twice by external forces.

First it lost it's status as a holiday destination due to cheap international holiday tours and Ryanair. And then it got a second bad hit with the construction of Dundrum shopping center, killing it's retail.

Nothing could be done to stop these changes, short of banning Ryanair, Dundrum, etc.

Yet despite this Dun Laoghaire is gone through a fantastic transformation and it is now jam packed almost any weekend and I go there regularly.

They have done a great job of removing cars from the area, covered over the DART tracks and thus made it an attractive destination for families and tourists to go for day trips. Thus all the bars, restaurants and cafes jam packed around there and new places opening up all the time. DL is going from strength to strength.

Yes, the shopping street isn't doing as well. And given Dundrum, I'm honestly not sure what they could do to improve it short of levelling it and creating another Dundrum. But they certainly have done a great job down by the sea front.

It however really worries me that people can't see the forest through the trees!

People go on about cars being removed from DL killing it, all the while ignoring the real reasons (cheap flighs, Dundrum) and not realising removing the cars is helping save it.

You see the same talk about the city center. People saying that removing cars will kill it, while ignoring that it is already far easier and cheaper to drive to the likes of Blanchardstown if you want to drive to shop and internet shopping.

If Dublin City Center is to survive and thrive, then it needs to offer something different, an unique experience compared to Blanchadstown and internet shopping. A nice place to go, with safe streets, a good buzz, cool pubs/cafes/etc., lovely architecture, etc.

An easy, pleasant, walk-able city.

Zipppy

bk wrote:

If Dublin City Center is to survive and thrive, then it needs to offer something different, an unique experience compared to Blanchadstown and internet shopping. A nice place to go, with safe streets, a good buzz, cool pubs/cafes/etc., lovely architecture, etc.

Spot on...retail will survive in the city centre only if surrounded by a pleasant accessible safe urban environment..

MJohnston

Yep, a good model for the city centre would be Exchequer and South William Street areas - one off locally owned stores, cafes, bars, and restaurants, and more quirky chains. My favourite part of the city. Henry Street is like the antithesis of it and it's horrible.

Dyr

bk wrote: »

An easy, pleasant, walk-able city.

Do you have any idea how much transport and parking are worth to a lot of very important groups?

And you want freeloading, no cost WALKING to take priority in the city centre?

wakka12

MJohnston wrote: »

Yep, a good model for the city centre would be Exchequer and South William Street areas - one off locally owned stores, cafes, bars, and restaurants, and more quirky chains. My favourite part of the city. Henry Street is like the antithesis of it and it's horrible.

Henry street is extremely generic like a british high street and I too hate it, but its the second busiest street in the entire city after grafton street. Theres certainly a market there. You need a couple of streets like this filled with brand stores so people have a place to buy from brands they recognise and like..

A big advantage the city has over shopping centres is imo that its outdoor. I know one of the often said benefits of shopping centres is that they protect from weather, but really our weather isn't nearly as bad as people say and most people prefer being outdoors. The nicest part of dundrum shopping centre is of course the outdoor square part and the restaurant area

Stephen15

I do think Dublin lacks any sort of half decent eating/drinking pedestrianised nightime district. Think of somewhere like Soho which nice bars, shops which are open late and restaurants and a decent vibe for a what is a very big city.

I have to say Dublin CC does not have a very nice vibe after about a few times I have gone in to go to the theatre or for shopping followed by a meal out I have got a bad vibe at coming out it feels that at night everything is geared towards shady looking pubs and clubs. Other cities I have been to have a much more pleasant vibe at night a more family friendly, tourist vibe other cities also have a good mixture of restaurants, bars and shop that are open late.

I would like it if shops were open late perhaps in the summer with the long evenings maybe shops in town could be open late in the evening until about 10 or 11. Families and groups of friends could go in for meal after work and then go for a look in the shops. Maybe the city council could promote family night shopping events in the summer with stuff like face painting, balloons and entertainment for the children.

Sierra Oscar

buffalo wrote: »

Where in the article does it say that DCC are threatening to ban Dublin Bus services from using College Green!?

Is this coming as a surprise to people?

We've known for a pretty long time that Dublin City Council want to restrict buses from using College Green, including a ban on sharing the road with the Luas Cross City line on College Green.

Councillors to debate motion against College Green traffic changes

The council’s plans for the pedestrian and cycle plaza would see all traffic, including buses and taxis, banned from accessing Dame Street through College Green.

...

The restrictions may involve an end to buses using the Luas Cross City line, and could see taxis and cars entirely prohibited from the area.

Keegan is arguing that because the public hearing has been delayed he has the right to implement new traffic arrangements to deal with the 'chaos'.

buffalo

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Is this coming as a surprise to people?

We've known for a pretty long time that Dublin City Council want to restrict buses from using College Green, including a ban on sharing the road with the Luas Cross City line on College Green.

A restriction on using College Green is not a ban on using College Green. Please be accurate, thank you.

Sierra Oscar

buffalo wrote: »

A restriction on using College Green is not a ban on using College Green. Please be accurate, thank you.

Under the DCC plan buses will be banned from using the Luas line, preventing services travelling from D'Olier Street to Nassau Street.

Buses on Dame Street will no longer be able to pass through College Green, they'll be able to access the area via the use of a turnback facility but they will be banned from travelling through the green. I'll stick with my language.

trellheim

This sounds like conflation of two different things.

With the Plaza, East-west bus traffic would not be possible, and some buses would use a turnback in front of where the Central Bank is.

However, this did not ( and does not ) preclude north-south bus traffic ( and also, importantly, the recently back-on-route South-North traffic ) using D'Olier to Nassau Streets , and sharing space with LUAS - this was always in the plan in a post-Plaza environment.

Where, otherwise did people think the 46a and all the other routes would go if you close off in front of Trinity ? Townsend St is really not designed for that kind of volume and I cant see Parliament St either but thats just me

For the vast majority of places the bus is the only answer to public transport and should have prime place. LUAS serves very specific places only.

Sierra Oscar

trellheim wrote: »

However, this did not ( and does not ) preclude north-south bus traffic ( and also, importantly, the recently back-on-route South-North traffic ) using D'Olier to Nassau Streets , and sharing space with LUAS - this was always in the plan in a post-Plaza environment.

The issues are related and would have been dealt with at the planned hearing in the context of the overall traffic management plan for the area.

I don't think a ban on buses using the Luas line is workable, but it's important to highlight that this is something Keegan has brought up on a few occasions. There is a reason the Irish Times include this line.

The restrictions may involve an end to buses using the Luas Cross City line

Councillors to debate motion against College Green traffic changes

trellheim wrote: »

Where, otherwise did people think the 46a and all the other routes would go if you close off in front of Trinity ? Townsend St is really not designed for that kind of volume and I cant see Parliament St either but thats just me

Yes exactly, I don't think a ban on buses using the Luas line is workable at all. It would require a radical overhaul of Dublin Bus services. This would have been highlighted at the upcoming hearing and Keegan would have been forced to back off, I've no doubt about that.

It's ridiculous that he's now suggesting that DCC could take unilateral action without proper consultation. I think in reality they're just trying to put the pressure on to get this resolved once and for all.

trellheim

Whyt are DCC getting involved in the NTA's fight here, though ? Surely if trams were that badly affected you'd be seeing NTA complaining to DCC and then we'd get into this

MJohnston

The councillors have voted to give the council executive backing to make traffic changes tonight:

Cllr Ring’s motion said that the CEO should wait so that he “cannot be accused of pre-empting a decision or overriding the authority and/or the independence of An Bord Pleanála in its deliberations on the application”.

Green Party Cllr Ciaran Cuffe, the head of the city traffic committee, put forward a counter-motion which said: “In the light of An Bord Pleanála’s decision to defer the Oral Hearing for the College Green Plaza this Council calls on the Chief Executive and his staff to manage city centre traffic in the interim in a manner that safely supports the transport needs of residents, workers, retailers and visitors to the city in a sustainable manner.”

Cllr Ring’s motion was defeated by 41 votes to 15, and then Cllr’s Cuffe’s motion was passed by 48 to 5.

http://irishcycle.com/2018/01/08/luas-only-working-at-college-green-because/

Zipppy

MJohnston wrote:

The councillors have voted to give the council executive backing to make traffic changes tonight:

Cllr Cuffe is pro cycling and feck everyone else.. he'll be happy to see buses cars taxis luas etc gone so cyclists have more space to run riot...
First step will be taxis gone from college green..then buses when taxi removal doesn't solve issues...

monument

Zipppy wrote: »

Cllr Cuffe is pro cycling and feck everyone else.. he'll be happy to see buses cars taxis luas etc gone so cyclists have more space to run riot...
First step will be taxis gone from college green..then buses when taxi removal doesn't solve issues...

Let’s just be clear on this:

— 48 councillors supported the need to act, not one councillor.

— Gridlock at College Green is worse for bus passengers than being diverted.

— The trams aren’t going anywhere, but instead soon increasing in frequency and length.

— Pedestrians are being badly effected by the current situation.

nilescraneo

monument wrote: »

Let’s just be clear on this:

— 48 councillors supported the need to act, not one councillor.

— Gridlock at College Green is worse for bus passengers than being diverted.

— The trams aren’t going anywhere, but instead soon increasing in frequency and length.

— Pedestrians are being badly effected by the current situation.

Gridlock on the quays is worse than at College Green currently at rush hour, so being diverted is worse, especially for us who only have the option of commuting by bus from western suburbs.

Hugh Jampton

trellheim wrote: »

Whyt are DCC getting involved in the NTA's fight here, though ? Surely if trams were that badly affected you'd be seeing NTA complaining to DCC and then we'd get into this

My understanding is that the NTA considers itself neutral between buses, trams and rail.

cgcsb

Zipppy wrote: »

Have the very same questions in my head? Sure there's barely room on most city centre pavements for pedestrians.. place is jammed..



Parliament st runs up to city hall..its a lovely street with a lot less traffic than you might think.. a two way bus lane would destroy it..imagine thousands of buses turning right/left at city hall? Madness..street should be pedestrianised

If it's pedestrianize Parliament st or pedestrianize College Green I think College Green is a much grander statement and something more people would enjoy.

cgcsb

Well looks like we'll just have to ban cars from the north quays as originally planned and move east-west buses to the quays. Reverse traffic flow on liffey st, great strand street and middle abbey street. to provide access to Arnotts. Pedestrianise Prince's street. Ban taxis from the central area completely and bring in a 24 hours service on 10 key bus routes at half hour frequency after midnight.

hmmm

monument wrote: »

Gridlock at College Green is worse for bus passengers than being diverted.

Is there anything to back up this statement?

The cause of this gridlock is the implementation of Luas Cross City. There has been several years notice of this project, it shouldn't be reliant on emergency measures which are going to impact on thousands of bus commuters.

It is nice however to see the councilors considering the needs of the residents of the city, and not spending most of their time deciding which foreign flag they are going to fly this week.

trellheim

What exactly got voted on ? Approving the Manager to act as he saw fit ?

MJohnston

AA have last night apparently been voted onto the Dublin Transport Committee with a single seat, by DCC councillors.

Aside from the councillors on the committee, that now makes 4 pro-car lobbies with seats (AA, Irish Parking Association, Irish Road Haulage, and Dublin Town), 1 cycling group, 1 seat for the National Council for the Blind Ireland, and 1 for the "Public Participation Network".

I presume the NCBI are anti-car and pro-public transport (but possibly pro-taxi), but I've no idea what the Public Participation Network's stance is on transport. Which leaves the cyclists to be the ones advocating for public transport in the city.

What a fúcking absurd situation.

Hugh Jampton

MJohnston wrote: »

AA have last night apparently been voted onto the Dublin Transport Committee with a single seat, by DCC councillors.

Aside from the councillors on the committee, that now makes 4 pro-car lobbies with seats (AA, Irish Parking Association, Irish Road Haulage, and Dublin Town), 1 cycling group, 1 seat for the National Council for the Blind Ireland, and 1 for the "Public Participation Network".

I presume the NCBI are anti-car and pro-public transport (but possibly pro-taxi), but I've no idea what the Public Participation Network's stance is on transport. Which leaves the cyclists to be the ones advocating for public transport in the city.

What a fúcking absurd situation.

Indeed. DCC should simply create a congestion charge within the inner ring and be done with it. That charge should be sufficiently punitive to discourage the vast majority of cars from entering it. Let's say €20 for a start. No listening to the car park owners. They own valuable real estate in the centre of Dublin. Let them cry all the way to the bank.

Podge_irl

Dublin Town shouldn't be blindly pro-car but they seem content to complain about every effort to improve public transport and decry its impact and then forget about it when its successful. The carparks in Dublin have an absurdly outsized voice in everything.

loyatemu

Podge_irl wrote: »

Dublin Town shouldn't be blindly pro-car but they seem content to complain about every effort to improve public transport and decry its impact and then forget about it when its successful. The carparks in Dublin have an absurdly outsized voice in everything.

aren't Dublin Town largely funded by the car park owners?