College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

Spanish Eyes

Ban cars or introduce congestion charges. CPO the car parks that are the cause of a lot of these "access" issues. The money is there now. Make them into bike parks or whatever.

Public transport only within the city centre. Taxis moved to hubs at the edges of city centre. Ban cruising for fares. Only at the ranks.

Mad thoughts, and I know I will get (hopefully good) ripostes, but there we are.

MJohnston

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Ban cars or introduce congestion charges. CPO the car parks that are the cause of a lot of these "access" issues. The money is there now. Make them into bike parks or whatever.

Public transport only within the city centre. Taxis moved to hubs at the edges of city centre. Ban cruising for fares. Only at the ranks.

Mad thoughts, and I know I will get (hopefully good) ripostes, but there we are.

It will never happen because if there was the will to make it happen, the car parks wouldn't hold any sway over the council anyway!

DCC would be wasting money to CPO car parks when they can just make them incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to access instead.

trellheim

AA have last night apparently been voted onto the Dublin Transport Committee with a single seat, by DCC councillors.

Aside from the councillors on the committee, that now makes 4 pro-car lobbies with seats (AA, Irish Parking Association, Irish Road Haulage, and Dublin Town), 1 cycling group, 1 seat for the National Council for the Blind Ireland, and 1 for the "Public Participation Network".

got any links to minutes or councillors tweeting ?

Calina

For me there are a couple of issues here.

In general, transport planning for Dublin is hit or miss. It's disappointing that an integrated approach does not happen and we wind up funding things for as little as we can get away with and until the last possible moment. Integration of the tram lines should have been considered when Green and Red lines were being designed first.

Public transport in Dublin is appallingly poorly integrated. Mode changes cause serious delays and the primary mode of public transport which I think is still Dublin bus suffers from serious journey time prediction issues - in other words, regardless of how frequently a bus runs, you cannot with much accuracy predict how long your journey time will be. In general terms, the city needs a more integrated approach to public transport in terms of allowing buses and trams and rail to feed each other plus planning infrastructure projects to be integrated into a planned system.

This means for example when Luas Cross City was planned, part of the process should have included how it would directly impact on bus route supply, and how routes need to be changed or removed on implementation. This didn't happen. There was what looks like an isolated decision on the question of "joining" the two Luas lines and from what I can see, at that planning stage, no thought as to how it might integrate with the bus system and the DART. And it could have integrated with Dart given its proximity to Tara Street.

The lines were fully under construction when eventually it looked like some thought was being given to moving buses around. But that was as part of the decision to do the College Green Plaza thing. At that time, and reading the documentation that DCC released at the time, it was absolutely obvious that a core objective was to make life nicer for cyclists and not how to move major numbers of people around the city centre. I remember looking at numbers at the time there was some discussion of rerouting a bunch of buses down Parliament Street and that was rerouting something like 36000 bus passengers a day to a longer route to facilitate 6000 cyclists on Dame Street. I assume that since we are here this has fallen by the way side.

Every major infrastructure gig in Dublin for public transport seems to be designed as a stand alone project with the possible exception of the interconnector which of course is parked or cancelled at the moment .

So, now we have a mess in the city centre because we didn't plan Luas in an integrated manner, and now we're trying to fix capacity issues on the streets because despite Luas, Dublin Bus is still probably the primary source of public transport for a majority of public transport users. These things are being done in the wrong order and okay fine. We'll live with it now provided that the powers that be learn something from this mess. Draw up an integrated public transport vision for DUblin. Do things like integrating all the long haul buses to a single station as opposed to a Bus Eireann one and all the private operators all over the place (make like Dublin Airport in that respect). Plan new trams and undergrounds to fit together and to integrate well with other existing services. Remove or reroute bus services based on an integrated plan rather than Oh hell we built this tram line but there's not enough actual street capacity for it and the buses that we haven't actually rerouted yet....

With respect to the whole College Green Plaza nonsense, you could drop the Plaza name and still pedestrianise it. I don't think it's should be the number one target for this but I'd like to see it done in the future. DCC should look at turning O'Connell Street into a square as well. On the odd occasion (EAster 2015 being a good example) that it has been pedestrianised, it has really shown a lot of promise as a public square.

And for the love of god, do something about focusing on the needs of pedestrians. Dublin is a lousy horrible disgusting city to walk around - the streets are and pavements outside O'Connell Street don't seem to be cleaned, lots of the streets on the north side are just manky; the traffic signals just are not pedestrian friendly.

Just for comparison, I live in Luxembourg for the last year. The day the new tram line opened just before CHristmas, all the relevant bus routes were rerouted. Intermodal changes between bus and tram are necessary and will continue to be necessary until more of the tram line is built but they are working and are not adding loads of time to the route in my experience.

It's possible to plan these things in a coherent manner. I just don't get why in Ireland, they don't do it.

prinzeugen

Zipppy wrote: »

Cllr Cuffe is pro cycling and feck everyone else.. he'll be happy to see buses cars taxis luas etc gone so cyclists have more space to run riot...
First step will be taxis gone from college green..then buses when taxi removal doesn't solve issues...

Indeed. Him and Cllr Paddy Smyth have let the mask slip more than once that they want ALL motorised vehicles banned from the city centre.

donvito99

prinzeugen wrote: »

Zipppy wrote: »

Cllr Cuffe is pro cycling and feck everyone else.. he'll be happy to see buses cars taxis luas etc gone so cyclists have more space to run riot...
First step will be taxis gone from college green..then buses when taxi removal doesn't solve issues...

Indeed. Him and Cllr Paddy Smyth have let the mask slip more than once that they want ALL motorised vehicles banned from the city centre.

Do they really though? Buses have motors. So do trams.

MJohnston

prinzeugen wrote: »

Indeed. Him and Cllr Paddy Smyth have let the mask slip more than once that they want ALL motorised vehicles banned from the city centre.

I follow Cuffe on Twitter and he's clearly just anti-car, and very much pro-public transport.

prinzeugen

donvito99 wrote: »

Do they really though? Buses have motors. So do trams.

I should have been clearer and said anything with an internal combustion engine.

prinzeugen

MJohnston wrote: »

I follow Cuffe on Twitter and he's clearly just anti-car, and very much pro-public transport.

You should look at some of his articles or replies he has made to tweets then.

Cuffe, Keegan and Smyth are all pushing the same selfish agenda without giving any consideration to the majority of people in Dublin.

Most of us want to get from A to B in one go as quickly as is possible. That is the point of public transport!

But these guys are going to make it as hard as possible in the hope that they can turn it into some European city square, cycling/walking utopia with hipster cafes and bars.

The city should be for all, not just a few.

wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

You should look at some of his articles or replies he has made to tweets then.

Cuffe, Keegan and Smyth are all pushing the same selfish agenda without giving any consideration to the majority of people in Dublin.

Most of us want to get from A to B in one go as quickly as is possible. That is the point of public transport!

But these guys are going to make it as hard as possible in the hope that they can turn it into some European city square, cycling/walking utopia with hipster cafes and bars.

The city should be for all, not just a few.

Would a public square for the city not be considered for everyone
I would think that maintaining the route thorough there for cars or transport would be for the needs of the few surely seeing as hundreds of thousands of people don't take public or private transport through college green daily

Social aspects of a city are rather important too you know. I know its hard to argue that any idea like this should take priority over a more efficient transport system,especially in a city with already poor PT like Dublin, but then again you could ask why or whats the point of making a good transport system for a city thats not nice to live in or visit. Needs to be a balance here. Dublin has very few civic spaces, maybe some transport sacrifices may be worth it in the long run. College green is the epicentre of the city and its pedestrianisation would transform it socially. Not banning cars there is simply maintaining an already inadequate transport system and not looking for better ways to do it.

wakka12

Deedsie wrote: »

That doesnt make any sense. The city has been engineered to suit private cars. This "carchitecture" has ruined every city and town in Ireland. We need to give the majority of space over to pedestrians, cyclist and public transport users otherwise the city will grind to a halt. Smothered by private car traffic congestion

Yeh Dublin is especially bad. Around Leeson Street and Westmoreland street areas just off the top of my head, it honestly feels like you're dodging traffic, with the maze of pedestrian crossings you have to go through and wait at just to get to the corner opposite you. And its sad as they are rather pretty areas

Cars ruined the whole world..

MJohnston

prinzeugen wrote: »

You should look at some of his articles or replies he has made to tweets then.

I have! Maybe you would supply some links if you're going to make statements which don't really seem to be supported by reality.

prinzeugen

wakka12 wrote: »

Would a public square for the city not be considered for everyone
I would think that maintaining the route thorough there for cars or transport would be for the needs of the few surely seeing as hundreds of thousands of people don't take public or private transport through college green daily

Social aspects of a city are rather important too you know. I know its hard to argue that any idea like this should take priority over a more efficient transport system,especially in a city with already poor PT like Dublin, but then again you could ask why or whats the point of making a good transport system for a city thats not nice to live in or visit. Needs to be a balance here. Dublin has very few civic spaces, maybe some transport sacrifices may be worth it in the long run. College green is the epicentre of the city and its pedestrianisation would transform it socially. Not banning cars there is simply maintaining an already inadequate transport system and not looking for better ways to do it.

What is the point of "civic spaces" if nobody can get to them?

wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

What is the point of "civic spaces" if nobody can get to them?

And whats the point of a city if we have trains and cars running through our potential civic spaces and we have nowhere for its citizens to enjoy the city
Thats the debate, as I said..balance is needed

ThisRegard

prinzeugen wrote: »

What is the point of "civic spaces" if nobody can get to them?

College Green is used as a place to pass through on some form of transport or another, for a long time it was basically a taxi rank, moreso than a destination. Making it a civic space won't stop people getting to it.

prinzeugen

Deedsie wrote: »

That doesnt make any sense. The city has been engineered to suit private cars. This "carchitecture" has ruined every city and town in Ireland. We need to give the majority of space over to pedestrians, cyclist and public transport users otherwise the city will grind to a halt. Smothered by private car traffic congestion

The city was built around the horse and cart and later trams. The motorcar and motorcoach came later.

You have almost quoted word for word what was said this morning by Paddy Smyth on thejournal.ie?

"We need to give the majority of space over to pedestrians, cyclist and public transport users otherwise the city will grind to a halt. Smothered by private car traffic congestion"

Do you have an opinion or are you going to copy and paste stuff?

trellheim

College Green is used as a place to pass through on some form of transport or another, for a long time it was basically a taxi rank, moreso than a destination. Making it a civic space won't stop people getting to it.

Can we please everyone understand what is meant here. Plaza stops east-west bus traffic only unless they've changed the design.

If the plaza comes in we need to reroute a rake of e-w bus routes ( and has a massive knock-on for taxis and other pub transport ) - which we've looked at a lot in this thread


Separately, if we reroute north-south buses we've nowhere to put north-south buses.

prinzeugen

wakka12 wrote: »

And whats the point of a city if we have trains and cars running through our potential civic spaces and we have nowhere for its citizens to enjoy the city
Thats the debate, as I said..balance is needed

Dublin has spaces.. They are called parks. We have a market in Smithfield.

Most attempts at "Civic Spaces" have failed here and in the UK.

The culture is different. This is Ireland not some European mainland country.

Dublin has its traffic, London has its red buses and black cabs.

Its what they come here for.

wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

Dublin has spaces.. They are called parks. We have a market in Smithfield.

Most attempts at "Civic Spaces" have failed here and in the UK.

The culture is different. This is Ireland not some European mainland country.

Dublin has its traffic, London has its red buses and black cabs.

Its what they come here for.

Its impossible to argue that college green would be a failed civic space, its where several important pedestrian areas (trinity campus/ Grafton quarter, Templebar, and main streets dame street and oconnell street) all collide. It would flourish and improve the social realm of the city immeasurably

Smithfield is not a failure by any means but it is not at such a commercial foot traffic heavy area as college green and much further from our main commercial areas, so its much quieter

And that culture is different thing is stupid, the exact same thing was said about danes in copenhagen when they were considering pedestrianisng large parts of the city. This isn't italy..we don't eat al fresco yada yada, well the city is now a gorgeous place and foot traffic increased throughout the city by 300%..as people were given the option to enjoy pedestrianised areas

prinzeugen

wakka12 wrote: »

Its impossible to argue that college green would be a failed civic space, its where several important pedestrian areas (trinity campus/ Grafton quarter, Templebar, and main streets dame street and oconnell street) all collide. It would flourish and improve the social realm of the city immeasurably

Smithfield is not a failure by any means but it is not at such a commercial foot traffic heavy area as college green and much further from our main commercial areas, so its much quieter

And that culture is different thing is stupid, the exact same thing was said about danes in copenhagen when they were considering pedestrianisng large parts of the city. This isn't italy..we don't eat al fresco yada yada, well the city is now a gorgeous place and foot traffic increased throughout the city by 300%..as people were given the option to enjoy pedestrianised areas

Its not impossible that it will be a failed space seeing as it does not exist yet!

Likewise, how do you know it is going to be a success?

Why does all the pro plaza posters refer to other countries? This is Dublin. Not happy, move to (insert city name here)!!

wakka12

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its not impossible that it will be a failed space seeing as it does not exist yet!

Likewise, how do you know it is going to be a success?

Why does all the pro plaza posters refer to other countries? This is Dublin. Not happy, move to (insert city name here)!!

Because theyre successful foreign precedents that could be incorporated into our own home city?

buffalo

prinzeugen wrote: »

Dublin has its traffic, London has its red buses and black cabs.

Its what they come here for.

I've never seen Dublin's traffic promoted by Bord Failte, I must've missed that campaign.

monument

hmmm wrote: »

Is there anything to back up this statement?

Yes.

• Pedestrian priority is cut back -- the city council said that they are not leave it that way.
• Tram frequency is to be increased and longer trams are being rolled out from next month.

College Green is hardly functioning as is, it won’t function for anybody when extra trams are added and pedestrian priority is even somewhat restored.

loyatemu wrote: »

aren't Dublin Town largely funded by the car park owners?

There's a big cross-over.

The car parks themselves are part of the Dublin Town BID and then some large retailers and the central shopping centres have car park internists.

Calina wrote: »

The lines were fully under construction when eventually it looked like some thought was being given to moving buses around. But that was as part of the decision to do the College Green Plaza thing. At that time, and reading the documentation that DCC released at the time, it was absolutely obvious that a core objective was to make life nicer for cyclists and not how to move major numbers of people around the city centre. I remember looking at numbers at the time there was some discussion of rerouting a bunch of buses down Parliament Street and that was rerouting something like 36000 bus passengers a day to a longer route to facilitate 6000 cyclists on Dame Street. I assume that since we are here this has fallen by the way side.

Where you reading this? The EIA and other documents focus on buses far more than it focuses on cycling or walking combined.

http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-roads-and-traffic-projects-college-green/civic-plaza-college

Calina wrote: »

And for the love of god, do something about focusing on the needs of pedestrians. Dublin is a lousy horrible disgusting city to walk around - the streets are and pavements outside O'Connell Street don't seem to be cleaned, lots of the streets on the north side are just manky; the traffic signals just are not pedestrian friendly.

That's a key point of the plaza and works linked with Luas and the city centre plan.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Why does all the pro plaza posters refer to other countries? This is Dublin. Not happy, move to (insert city name here)!!

The City Development Plan outlines the way Dublin is moving. Not happy? Move to (insert city name here) that you like OR fight against the changes.

You actually have choices.

Calina

My comments regarding focus on cycling were based on the plaza proposal docs discussed in this thread around May 2016 and the figures for Dublin Bus are based on Dublin Bus's response to that proposal also around May 2016. I don't think the EIS was available at that time.

The plaza does very little to fix pedestrian issues in the city as a whole. Reading back through the thread reminds me that far too many pieces of this puzzle were decided on in isolation.

trellheim

far too many pieces of this puzzle were decided on in isolation.

Indeed, and a point I have made many times.

BXD, Plaza and the quays cycle route are all independent fiefdoms it would seem. Where's NTAs dog in all of this its not barking

Stephen15

prinzeugen wrote: »

Why does all the pro plaza posters refer to other countries? This is Dublin. Not happy, move to (insert city name here)!!

Because other cities clearly do some things better than us. We have to look at what works in other cities and try and replicate them. It's all about making the city a better place to live. Look at Grafton and Henry Streets for examples of pedestrianisations that has worked you'd even have to look all the way at other countries.

You seem to think we should leave things exactly how they are even though it clearly isin't working or maybe you want Dublin CC turned into a motorway.

Dyr

buffalo wrote: »

I've never seen Dublin's traffic promoted by Bord Failte, I must've missed that campaign.

It would be an interesting ad

footage of tourists fleeing back onto pavements as they realise the green man is considered more of a guidance by dublin car drivers only to be smacked out of it by a cyclist booting up said pavement

"woujya fookin move ih"

*horns blare*

DUBLIN FOR ADVENTURE!!

dfx-

Calina wrote: »

I just don't get why in Ireland, they don't do it.

I think you have the answer at the start of your post:

Calina wrote: »

we wind up funding things for as little as we can get away with and until the last possible moment.

This approach is endemic. It's trying to do things with as little resources as we can get away with often attached to unrealistic, over-ambitious timeframes, chasing 'efficiencies' and then trying to make up for the problems those 'efficiencies' cause.

It feels like every project can be described above.

monument

Calina wrote: »

My comments regarding focus on cycling were based on the plaza proposal docs discussed in this thread around May 2016 and the figures for Dublin Bus are based on Dublin Bus's response to that proposal also around May 2016. I don't think the EIS was available at that time.

The April 2016 documents:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/Documents/CollegeGreenConsultationDocument.pdf

And:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/PublishingImages/CollegeGreenpresentation11thapril2016.pdf

Both have a number of pages about the bus diversions and both have no deaths on the cycle path beside the plaza — it’s just presented as a blank at that time.

There were strong indications that cyclists might just dismount or be left to go in any which way across the plaza. With a bit of pushing the council said there would be a defined route.

Fast forward to now — we’re still in a situation that all cycling groups etc who have expressed a view see the cycling provision as lacking clarity (bad for pedestrians as well as cyclists) and the NCBI are also not fond of the lack of definition of the cycle route.

In 2016 the details on cycling were more lacking than the details on buses and a huge chuck of an areas which could be an extended part of the plaza is taken up and defined by a bus turn-back, while cycling space is mostly share, unprotected, lacks clarity in places and is defined by already set elements such as bus measures — all of that is why I think the view you expressed on cycling is strange and out of keeping with much of the other points you made which I’d agree with.

Calina wrote: »

The plaza does very little to fix pedestrian issues in the city as a whole.

A plaza can’t fix pedestrian issues in the city as a whole — no one measure or project can.

But the plaza at least aims to improve a key section of the busiest north-south pedestrian route in the country and improve access to main gateway into TCD.

Calina wrote: »

Reading back through the thread reminds me that far too many pieces of this puzzle were decided on in isolation.

trellheim wrote: »

Indeed, and a point I have made many times.

BXD, Plaza and the quays cycle route are all independent fiefdoms it would seem. Where's NTAs dog in all of this its not barking

While I think BXD and bus re-routing might have tied in well together, the expectations of what can be planned at the one time is way over the top.

I could maybe even see the Liffey Cycle Route being sped up and implemented (if the funding was there) with the quays traffic management measures.

But BXD was given a railway order in 2012 when the Liffey Cycle Route was hardly a concept and the Plaza taking up most of the width of the end of Dame St / start of College Green was only a reality after the years of bluffing from the RPA/TII came in contact with realty.

We have to remember: the RPA pre-bus hate was saying it was full sure that trams could work on College Green without changing a thing — not even taking cars out. It was pure disfunction and daftness.

Other bodies, including the council, were stunned and didn’t know what they could do with them and the realty is they could do very little quickly as everybody dismissed their warnings, or knew they were right but didn’t want to deal with the backlash.

The RPA/TII could do much of what it wanted because it had a railway order and the Department of Transport gave little or nothing to the extra needed measures and the NTA ran out of funding because it had to divert most of what it had to Luas.

Hugh Jampton

monument wrote: »

The April 2016 documents:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/Documents/CollegeGreenConsultationDocument.pdf

And:

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/Planning/PublishingImages/CollegeGreenpresentation11thapril2016.pdf

Both have a number of pages about the bus diversions and both have no deaths on the cycle path beside the plaza — it’s just presented as a blank at that time.

There were strong indications that cyclists might just dismount or be left to go in any which way across the plaza. With a bit of pushing the council said there would be a defined route.

Fast forward to now — we’re still in a situation that all cycling groups etc who have expressed a view see the cycling provision as lacking clarity (bad for pedestrians as well as cyclists) and the NCBI are also not fond of the lack of definition of the cycle route.

In 2016 the details on cycling were more lacking than the details on buses and a huge chuck of an areas which could be an extended part of the plaza is taken up and defined by a bus turn-back, while cycling space is mostly share, unprotected, lacks clarity in places and is defined by already set elements such as bus measures — all of that is why I think the view you expressed on cycling is strange and out of keeping with much of the other points you made which I’d agree with.



A plaza can’t fix pedestrian issues in the city as a whole — no one measure or project can.

But the plaza at least aims to improve a key section of the busiest north-south pedestrian route in the country and improve access to main gateway into TCD.




While I think BXD and bus re-routing might have tied in well together, the expectations of what can be planned at the one time is way over the top.

I could maybe even see the Liffey Cycle Route being sped up and implemented (if the funding was there) with the quays traffic management measures.

But BXD was given a railway order in 2012 when the Liffey Cycle Route was hardly a concept and the Plaza taking up most of the width of the end of Dame St / start of College Green was only a reality after the years of bluffing from the RPA/TII came in contact with realty.

We have to remember: the RPA pre-bus hate was saying it was full sure that trams could work on College Green without changing a thing — not even taking cars out. It was pure disfunction and daftness.

Other bodies, including the council, were stunned and didn’t know what they could do with them and the realty is they could do very little quickly as everybody dismissed their warnings, or knew they were right but didn’t want to deal with the backlash.

The RPA/TII could do much of what it wanted because it had a railway order and the Department of Transport gave little or nothing to the extra needed measures and the NTA ran out of funding because it had to divert most of what it had to Luas.

Don't underestimate institutional inertia, monument. Ah sure, it will be grand was never going to cut it. It isn't unique to RPA/TII - Irish Rail did damn all about the interchange at Broombridge until the last minute, despite funding from TII in place for it. So that's a mess as well.

Shedite27

wakka12 wrote: »

Its impossible to argue that college green would be a failed civic space, its where several important pedestrian areas (trinity campus/ Grafton quarter, Templebar, and main streets dame street and oconnell street) all collide. It would flourish and improve the social realm of the city immeasurably

Smithfield is not a failure by any means but it is not at such a commercial foot traffic heavy area as college green and much further from our main commercial areas, so its much quieter

And that culture is different thing is stupid, the exact same thing was said about danes in copenhagen when they were considering pedestrianisng large parts of the city. This isn't italy..we don't eat al fresco yada yada, well the city is now a gorgeous place and foot traffic increased throughout the city by 300%..as people were given the option to enjoy pedestrianised areas

I'm all for the plaza idea but you raise an interesting point.

What do people see the plaza being used for? There's not many cafes/resraurants around the plaza currently that could put outdoor seating (bar a costa and starbucks on one side).

Other areas like this in the city seem to be occpupied by:
(a) buskers, break dancers, someone making a dog out of sand or a magician trying to get people to clap
(b) skateboarders in black hoodies
(c) Concern workers trying to stop you for a chat

Given our climate, what are people expecting the plaza to be used for?

wakka12

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'm all for the plaza idea but you raise an interesting point.

What do people see the plaza being used for? There's not many cafes/resraurants around the plaza currently that could put outdoor seating (bar a costa and starbucks on one side).

Other areas like this in the city seem to be occpupied by:
(a) buskers, break dancers, someone making a dog out of sand or a magician trying to get people to clap
(b) skateboarders in black hoodies
(c) Concern workers trying to stop you for a chat

Given our climate, what are people expecting the plaza to be used for?

Climate is not an excuse, Edinburgh London Stockholm and many european asian and north east american cities have great civic spaces in places that are very often rainy or snowy or excruciatingly hot (which is worse for outdoor public space than our cool wet climate imo). Dublin has good weather for outdoor space use, it doesnt rain heavily very often and is rarely cold or very hot.

I wish the dublin has **** climate for outdoor activity myth could be put to bed, its why we never got a theme park for so long despite the UK having loads of successful ones. And what do you know, tayto park is extremely successful, as expected. As our climate barely limits any outdoor activity we want to pursue

And Im not sure exactly what it'll be used for, whats trinitys main courtyard 'used' for? It has no public facilities open to its centre, no buskers or any events ,pretty much nothing in particular but its a great and very enjoyable space and suffice to say its a beloved open space in the city centre

Zipppy

Shedite27 wrote:

What do people see the plaza being used for? There's not many cafes/resraurants around the plaza currently that could put outdoor seating (bar a costa and starbucks on one side).

The lack of prospective cafes/ coffee shops / bars around the 'plaza' is a concern..Idea is, I gather, that cafes etc would be in Foster Place which is dark and gloomy (even if they cut down the trees and move the taxis)
Plaza users would no doubt expect some level of bars or eateries around the perimeter.?

BonnieSituation

Wouldn't that culture develop AFTER we have the plaza?

I for one can't wait to have another 2 or 3 Starbucks' and Costas'. We're short as is.

MJohnston

Zipppy wrote: »

The lack of prospective cafes/ coffee shops / bars around the 'plaza' is a concern..Idea is, I gather, that cafes etc would be in Foster Place which is dark and gloomy (even if they cut down the trees and move the taxis)
Plaza users would no doubt expect some level of bars or eateries around the perimeter.?

The Bank is a bar that would be on the plaza, there would be a Starbucks and a Costa encompassed too. The bar is really nice, shame about the cafes, but there's not really a whole lot of commercial space facing onto the plaza.

The real use case for it will be as an event space - concerts, protests, markets, cultural events, etc.

The rest of the time it will be like Grand Canal Square - a place where people come to sit and eat their sandwiches or drink their takeaway coffee. There doesn't really need to be a lot of cafes or restaurants facing onto the plaza directly, just nearby (which there are loads).

BonnieSituation

MJohnston wrote: »

The Bank is a bar that would be on the plaza, there would be a Starbucks and a Costa encompassed too. The bar is really nice, shame about the cafes, but there's not really a whole lot of commercial space facing onto the plaza.

The real use case for it will be as an event space - concerts, protests, markets, cultural events, etc.

The rest of the time it will be like Grand Canal Square - a place where people come to sit and eat their sandwiches or drink their takeaway coffee. There doesn't really need to be a lot of cafes or restaurants facing onto the plaza directly, just nearby (which there are loads).

And that for one should be the reason to have it. I mean in Dublin there's always this focus on shops and cafes and facilities and therefore without them a place is crap. Sometimes it's nice to just "be".

We have more than enough bars and cafes in the surrounding areas.

wakka12

Abercrombie is doing really badly and making big losses(worldwide not just dublin) hopefully it closes down and something nice can open up there for the square

BonnieSituation

wakka12 wrote: »

Abercrombie is doing really badly and making huge losses, hopefully it closes down and something nice can open up there for the square

It's an aberration of a store and completely in the wrong place. Good riddance.

I'd say we'll get a Starbucks in there if they leave. Or another CEX.

wakka12

BonnieSituation wrote: »

It's an aberration of a store and completely in the wrong place. Good riddance.

I'd say we'll get a Starbucks in there if they leave. Or another CEX.

Yeh its the most awkward place for a clothes shop ever, outside a really busy bus station by a very busy road, with no other clothes shops around. I think they'd do a lot better in the middle of grafton street(and in a smaller shop).
Their rent must be absolutely huge there

I know it opened during the recession but A&F seems like such a remnant of the celtic tiger

magicbastarder

wakka12 wrote: »

with no other clothes shops around.

H&M?

Shedite27

wakka12 wrote: »

Climate is not an excuse, Edinburgh London Stockholm and many european asian and north east american cities have great civic spaces in places that are very often rainy or snowy or excruciatingly hot (which is worse for outdoor public space than our cool wet climate imo). Dublin has good weather for outdoor space use, it doesnt rain heavily very often and is rarely cold or very hot.

I wish the dublin has **** climate for outdoor activity myth could be put to bed, its why we never got a theme park for so long despite the UK having loads of successful ones. And what do you know, tayto park is extremely successful, as expected. As our climate barely limits any outdoor activity we want to pursue

And Im not sure exactly what it'll be used for, whats trinitys main courtyard 'used' for? It has no public facilities open to its centre, no buskers or any events ,pretty much nothing in particular but its a great and very enjoyable space and suffice to say its a beloved open space in the city centre

Wasn't saying climate was an excuse, was just hoping for some realistic answers

IE 222

I really dont see were the attraction of having College Green as a plaza comes from. When built it will serve very little purpose and will be tiny with active Luas and cycle lanes running through the centre of it. Personally I think this plaza will be torn up after a few years anyway. Id rather spend millions on turning O'Connell St. into a plaza with a future plan of flattening Parnell Sq. and making it apart of a plaza on O'Connell St and run both Luas lines via Marlborough St.

Chris_5339762

It'll finally be a center for Dublin. It'll be more of a success than anyone will believe.

Christmas Markets in 2019, theres the first thing.

jack presley

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Christmas Markets in 2019, theres the first thing.

They’ll only be somewhere between the judicial review and the appeal to the Supreme Court by then.

wakka12

IE 222 wrote: »

I really dont see were the attraction of having College Green as a plaza comes from. When built it will serve very little purpose and will be tiny with active Luas and cycle lanes running through the centre of it. Personally I think this plaza will be torn up after a few years anyway. Id rather spend millions on turning O'Connell St. into a plaza with a future plan of flattening Parnell Sq. and making it apart of a plaza on O'Connell St and run both Luas lines via Marlborough St.

What do you mean by this? You mean removing the central green space in parnell square?

ted1

prinzeugen wrote: »

MJohnston wrote: »

I follow Cuffe on Twitter and he's clearly just anti-car, and very much pro-public transport.

You should look at some of his articles or replies he has made to tweets then.

Cuffe, Keegan and Smyth are all pushing the same selfish agenda without giving any consideration to the majority of people in Dublin.


The city should be for all, not just a few.

What selfish agenda ? Using a private care motorcar in an urban area is being selfish. The cities population keeps growing and the roads can’t accommodate private motorcars. People need to learn that it’s days are numbered.

MJohnston

ted1 wrote: »

What selfish agenda ? Using a private care motorcar in an urban area is being selfish. The cities population keeps growing and the roads can’t accommodate private motorcars. People need to learn that it’s days are numbered.

Poster won't reply with any backup to that assertion, so I can only presume they were not being accurate.

cgcsb

Shedite27 wrote: »

Given our climate, what are people expecting the plaza to be used for?

well for walking first of all(and most of all), then for sitting, drinking coffee etc. and then for public performances/events.

monument

I’m going to allow the above comments which borderline refer to the poster’s record because they focus on posts in this thread, but I would ask that we now move on unless the poster in question posts again.

— moderator

prinzeugen

ted1 wrote: »

What selfish agenda ? Using a private care motorcar in an urban area is being selfish. The cities population keeps growing and the roads can’t accommodate private motorcars. People need to learn that it’s days are numbered.

Look at ALL the tweets. Pathological hatred of anything that runs on petrol or diesel.

It will be interesting to see what happens with this. Getting to town is a nightmare now so I don't bother.

But hey ho, you might be able to cycle.. Lucky you! I can't.