College Green Plaza -- public consultation open

AndrewJRenko

trellheim wrote: »

Are you suggesting the Plaza be open for deliveries in the mornings, we could do that for the morning and evening rushes, and for taxis after 10pm at night, if we follow that logic.

No need for that - the vans can just drive on the pavement, like this UK rental van did this morning at the bottom end of Grafton St, heading up past the Luas lines to get onto the pedestrianised section of Grafton St. I didn't see him stopping at any of the shops on that strip, but maybe he did that before I got to him.

I should have done a 'Stop A Douchebag' protest in front of him, but I was rushing to a meeting.

AlekSmart

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

No need for that - the vans can just drive on the pavement, like this UK rental van did this morning at the bottom end of Grafton St, heading up past the Luas lines to get onto the pedestrianised section of Grafton St. I didn't see him stopping at any of the shops on that strip, but maybe he did that before I got to him.

I should have done a 'Stop A Douchebag' protest in front of him, but I was rushing to a meeting.

Interesting too,that the photo shows TWO seperate CCTV systems monitoring the performance...the DCC Spherical one on the right and the "Old Style" Garda Box Camera on the left...

One can imagine the conversation in the monitoring rooms...

"Wudja lookit this lad"

"Ha !, ye boy Ya"

"Fair play to him...he's not taking no for an answer"

"What about ye !!"

He's had from 0600 to deliver...but,I suppose 0910 is about OK too ?

bebeman

Promoting cycling as the way to get around Dublin is short sighted, the simple truth is once it starts to rain the number of cyclists on the road drops like a stone, it rains often in Ireland, so turning over large areas of the city to cyclists only will be wasteful, they will be near empty once it starts to rain.
Naturally cyclist will be along to deny this, but you can see for yourself, a drop of rain, cyclist leave the bike at home and take the car.

ignorance is strength

bebeman wrote: »

...turning over large areas of the city to cyclists only

Where is there a proposal for such?

dashcamdanny

ignorance is strength wrote: »

Where is there a proposal for such?

Collage green . Now. That little used double cycle lane causing congestion to traffic all the way up Dame street.

P_1

bebeman wrote: »

Promoting cycling as the way to get around Dublin is short sighted, the simple truth is once it starts to rain the number of cyclists on the road drops like a stone, it rains often in Ireland, so turning over large areas of the city to cyclists only will be wasteful, they will be near empty once it starts to rain.
Naturally cyclist will be along to deny this, but you can see for yourself, a drop of rain, cyclist leave the bike at home and take the car.

A fair point, sadly most workplaces don't have shower/drying/decent bike storage facilities. Fix that and I'd imagine more people would cycle to work on the (not too many actually) days it rains.

MJohnston

bebeman wrote: »

Promoting cycling as the way to get around Dublin is short sighted, the simple truth is once it starts to rain the number of cyclists on the road drops like a stone, it rains often in Ireland, so turning over large areas of the city to cyclists only will be wasteful, they will be near empty once it starts to rain.
Naturally cyclist will be along to deny this, but you can see for yourself, a drop of rain, cyclist leave the bike at home and take the car.

While you might be right about cycling numbers dropping in bad weather (and I'd say that's primarily because Dublin becomes a very dangerous place to cycle in the rain as car drivers absolutely lose their minds at the sight of it), I don't think this bolded statement is anywhere close to being true.

Personally if I can't cycle for some reason, I'll take the Luas, and I see no evidence that it wouldn't be the same for most other cyclists. I'd say very, very few would switch back to cars.

donvito99

Clearly it doesn't rain in either Copenhagen or the entirity of the Netherlands. Ever.

ignorance is strength

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Collage green . Now. That little used double cycle lane causing congestion to traffic all the way up Dame street.

That's far from the principal cause of the congestion. But, I asked for a case in which "large areas of the city" would be "turned over to cyclists only."

MJohnston wrote: »

Personally if I can't cycle for some reason, I'll take the Luas, and I see no evidence that it wouldn't be the same for most other cyclists. I'd say very, very few would switch back to cars.

It's possible that more people drive cars when it rains. But the city - i.e. the only place where there are likely to be restrictions on cars in favour of cyclists - does not become more congested during rain, indicating that the poster's concerns are irrational.

bebeman

MJohnston wrote: »

Personally if I can't cycle for some reason,...., and I see no evidence that it wouldn't be the same for most other cyclists. I'd say very, very few would switch back to cars.

ignorance is strength wrote: »

It's possible that more people drive cars when it rains. But the city - i.e. the only place where there are likely to be restrictions on cars in favour of cyclists - does not become more congested during rain, indicating that the poster's concerns are irrational.

I will hazard a guess neither of you are have ever been in Dublin City Centre?
When it rains cyclists numbers drop massively, and car numbers increase massively.
Anyone who uses DB in either morning or evening rush hour can tell you this is true, when it rains the traffic is bumper to bumper with all the extra cars on the road.

devnull

bebeman wrote: »

I will hazard a guess neither of you are have ever been in Dublin City Centre?
When it rains cyclists numbers drop massively, and car numbers increase massively.
Anyone who uses DB in either morning or evening rush hour can tell you this is true, when it rains the traffic is bumper to bumper with all the extra cars on the road.

That's not my experience personally.

I used to live in Dundrum whilst working in the Docklands and for a while I'd get the LUAS from Dundrum to Charlemont and cycle the rest of the way using Dublin Bikes as it was by far the quickest. I did that even in quite heavy rain. If it was hail or really atrocious conditions I'd just get the LUAS to Stephens Green, walk to Abbey Street and then get the Red Line to work.

Then I got my own bike and and I'd bike the whole way, again if the weather was rainy I'd still cycle unless it was hail like conditions and I'd simply use the LUAS and walk between the two lines and I knew a few people who do this as well. I know little people who would switch from cycling to using the car if the weather was bad. Of course there are some, but not many in my experience.

Certainly the traffic is slower in Dublin when it is raining, but I don't think that is down to cyclists not being there and instead driving. Traffic always moves slower in rain as people drive slower in the rain which causes more congestion.

AndrewJRenko

bebeman wrote: »

I will hazard a guess neither of you are have ever been in Dublin City Centre?
When it rains cyclists numbers drop massively, and car numbers increase massively.
Anyone who uses DB in either morning or evening rush hour can tell you this is true, when it rains the traffic is bumper to bumper with all the extra cars on the road.

Just on the off-chance that anyone is interested in the facts about the weather in Dublin, it really doesn't rain that often
http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-weather/

It's true to say that traffic often appears to get much worse on rainy days. I'm not so sure that this is due to cyclists switching back to their cars.

I've never met any cyclist who routinely switches back to their car. For most commuting cyclists, rain is just an occupational hazard that you need to be prepared for, as it is fairly difficult to predict all the time. Are there really many people who switch?

MJohnston

bebeman wrote: »

I will hazard a guess neither of you are have ever been in Dublin City Centre?
When it rains cyclists numbers drop massively, and car numbers increase massively.
Anyone who uses DB in either morning or evening rush hour can tell you this is true, when it rains the traffic is bumper to bumper with all the extra cars on the road.

I've cycled to work every day for a couple of years in Dublin, so I'd say I know it well enough. I'm afraid you'll have to provide some proof of your assertion here, because I just don't think it's solid. Do car numbers increase massively, or is it just that car drivers get a lot less patient in the rain and therefore congestion gets significantly worse? If there is an increase in car numbers when it's raining, where's your proof that it's coming from cyclists, rather than people who don't want to wait for the bus or tram in the rain?

See, the reason I don't believe your assertion is solid is that I think there's a large disconnect in mindset between people who drive cars to work and people who cycle to work. I think most cyclists are likely to fall back on public transport first, cars second.

But, as others have pointed out, this is largely irrelevant, as a regular cyclist commuter I can count on my two hands the number of days in those 2 years that I was rained on during my commute to work. On average there's about 150 rain days in Dublin, and that's classified as 1mm of rain in the day, which is a tiny amount of rain anyway.

With that in mind, I don't see any reason that Dublin authorities shouldn't continue to promote cycling in the city.

dashcamdanny

Real cyclists dont run from the rain..


Bus there is a visible lack of attendance if its raining in the morning. And the bus is usually very busy.

ignorance is strength

bebeman wrote: »

I will hazard a guess neither of you are have ever been in Dublin City Centre?
When it rains cyclists numbers drop massively, and car numbers increase massively.
Anyone who uses DB in either morning or evening rush hour can tell you this is true, when it rains the traffic is bumper to bumper with all the extra cars on the road.

I am in the very centre of Dublin every day, as it happens, and can therefore dismiss your assertion that congestion is markedly different from normal at rush hour. Has it occurred to you that pedestrian numbers also drop massively during rain and that it is they, not cyclists, who are responsible? Combine that with worse road conditions and you have an explanation for the increased congestion. It's funny, you combine anecdotal evidence with erroneous causal inferences - nice job!

Stephen15

People tend to drive slower in the rain. It seems to be school children that make congestion worse in the rain. School children who usually get a bus, walk or cycle to school in dry weather often take a lift to school in the rain at least that was the case when I was going to school.

I could understand why as students wouldn't want to get their uniform soaked and have to sit the whole day in it. Bringing a change on top of books etc. wasn't viable either and most schoils have rules meaning you'd have to wear uniform on school premises.

bebeman

MJohnston wrote: »

Personally if I can't cycle for some reason, I'll take the Luas, and I see no evidence that it wouldn't be the same for most other cyclists. I'd say very, very few would switch back to cars.

MJohnston wrote: »

See, the reason I don't believe your assertion is solid is that I think there's a large disconnect in mindset between people who drive cars to work and people who cycle to work. I think most cyclists are likely to fall back on public transport first, cars second.
.

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I am in the very centre of Dublin every day, as it happens, and can therefore dismiss your assertion that congestion is markedly different from normal at rush hour. Has it occurred to you that pedestrian numbers also drop massively during rain and that it is they, not cyclists, who are responsible? Combine that with worse road conditions and you have an explanation for the increased congestion. It's funny, you combine anecdotal evidence with erroneous causal inferences - nice job!

Cyclists in denial, im not surprised to be honest.
So here is some facts, indisputable facts, not made up, but provable facts, and can be easily proven by anyone who uses DB to commute to and from work regularly, and all they have to do is open there eyes and pay attention.
1, Dublin Bus bike stations on a dry day will be empty during rush hour, not so when it rains, plenty of bikes for rent.
2, as a bus driver you get to know the regular passengers who travel on your bus, and believe it or not, there is no large increase in passenger numbers that would correlate with it raining and lack of cyclists on the road, but you can 100% notice there is a lack of cyclists and a increase of cars on the road.
Occam's razor would therefore suggest that they are Cyclists now in cars out of the rain

AndrewJRenko

bebeman wrote: »

Cyclists in denial, im not surprised to be honest.
So here is some facts, indisputable facts, not made up, but provable facts, and can be easily proven by anyone who uses DB to commute to and from work regularly, and all they have to do is open there eyes and pay attention.

Do you understand the difference between facts and anecdotes?

ignorance is strength

bebeman wrote: »

Cyclists in denial, im not surprised to be honest.
So here is some facts, indisputable facts, not made up, but provable facts, and can be easily proven by anyone who uses DB to commute to and from work regularly, and all they have to do is open there eyes and pay attention.
1, Dublin Bus bike stations on a dry day will be empty during rush hour, not so when it rains, plenty of bikes for rent.
2, as a bus driver you get to know the regular passengers who travel on your bus, and believe it or not, there is no large increase in passenger numbers that would correlate with it raining and lack of cyclists on the road, but you can 100% notice there is a lack of cyclists and a increase of cars on the road.
Occam's razor would therefore suggest that they are Cyclists now in cars out of the rain

Well, I haven't bestrode a bike in years, and I've never commuted on one!

You're going to have to do better than paltry anecdotes.

I greatly admire that you've heard of Ockham's Razor, but as a philosophy student I'm sorry to have to tell you that you misunderstand the meaning of the principle: it doesn't entitle you to assume the simplest explanation!

MJohnston

bebeman wrote: »

Cyclists in denial, im not surprised to be honest.
So here is some facts, indisputable facts, not made up, but provable facts, and can be easily proven by anyone who uses DB to commute to and from work regularly, and all they have to do is open there eyes and pay attention.
1, Dublin Bus bike stations on a dry day will be empty during rush hour, not so when it rains, plenty of bikes for rent.
2, as a bus driver you get to know the regular passengers who travel on your bus, and believe it or not, there is no large increase in passenger numbers that would correlate with it raining and lack of cyclists on the road, but you can 100% notice there is a lack of cyclists and a increase of cars on the road.
Occam's razor would therefore suggest that they are Cyclists now in cars out of the rain

My goodness, these are not indisputable facts, they're still just anecdotes! Anecdotes that I see the opposite of in my own experience too.

bebeman

ignorance is strength wrote: »

I greatly admire that you've heard of Ockham's Razor, but as a philosophy student !

Your a philosophy student?
Who the hell is Ockham?

monument

bebeman wrote: »

Your a philosophy student?
Who the hell is Ockham?

You can post the views you want but you can’t keep this trolling up — you know correcting people’s spelling isn’t on.

— moderator

ignorance is strength

bebeman wrote: »

Your a philosophy student?
Who the hell is Ockham?

Allow me to introduce: William of...

Spanish Eyes

This might be slightly old news to some of you, but NTA have definitely refused to route buses on Parliament Street, cautiously preferring Winetavern Street instead.

Looks like DB, for all their faults were correct in that bus users are largely being sacrificed for Luas and the Plaza. But to be fair, I don't recall DB putting forward any alternatives.

What an absolute mess this is all turning out to be.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-reverses-stance-on-college-green-plaza-plans-1.3447552

KD345

What I find even more alarming is that the NTA have not communicated as to what they see the overall plan to be.

There have been more public consultations done on Metrolink in the last two weeks for a project that is 10 years away than there has been on the bus routing post any College Green plaza.

AlekSmart

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

This might be slightly old news to some of you, but NTA have definitely refused to route buses on Parliament Street, cautiously preferring Winetavern Street instead.

Looks like DB, for all their faults were correct in that bus users are largely being sacrificed for Luas and the Plaza. But to be fair, I don't recall DB putting forward any alternatives.

What an absolute mess this is all turning out to be.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/nta-reverses-stance-on-college-green-plaza-plans-1.3447552

I wonder how much the NTA position of "Director of Transport Investment" pays these days,or indeed what the holder of the position actually sends their day doing ?

There is something wildly Machevellian about Mr Hugh Creegans actions at this enquiry.....either that or an Bord Pleanala's coffee machine has been spiked with hallucinogenic substances.

Bus Atha Cliath's ability to put forward "alternatives" for it's City Centre operations were,and remain,limited by the Geography of the City Centre itself,in addition to the actual provision of routeings being outside of it's remit,but instead having to rely on the likes of Hugh Creegan and Owen Keegan,to provide the physical road-space to operate along.

A process which,to be fair,appeared to be half-working,from the NTA perspective at least ?

First,our Hugh clearly states....

Early in the hearing, NTA director of transport investment Hugh Creegan said its support for the plaza was “contingent” upon two-way bus running being facilitated on Parliament Street.

Good man Hugh...no waffle there eh ?....putting forward the NTA's official policy for all to see ?
(I hope Hugh had his dictaphone switched on ?)

Now,out of the blue...Hugh wafts across the stage huming a brand new tune...

“Two-way bus operation on Parliament Street is our preferred arrangement following any closure of College Green to east west vehicular movement,” he said. “However, if two-way operation on Parliament Street is not permissible to be conditioned as part of this planning process, and I now understand that to be the case, we would in those circumstances recommend the granting of planning consent on the basis set out in the Dublin City Council application.”

Diverting buses to Winetavern Street was “technically workable” but not “the most desirable routing”, he said. If the council’s plans are approved, the NTA would assess other options for the required bus route changes, he said.

I will be very interested in Mr Creegan's "Other Options",as he appears to believe these can be magicked up within the next 6 months.....If not,then the professional credibility of his employing Authority,is pretty much wide open to question.

What planet has Mr Creegan arrived from ....or perhaps worse still has some super mind enhancing superbug been injected into Dún Scéine's aircon system ?

Apart from,a Royally Political shafting of Bus Atha Cliath,and inter alia,it's vast number of customers,Mr Creegan appears well comfortable with his NTA gifted powers to sweep these people's daily commuting arrangements aside ?

The wording is interesting,

I now understand that to be the case

,are we now asked to believe that the NTA,and Mr Creegan had actually an opposing belief on Day 1 of the hearing ?
A belief which they and Bus Atha Cliath,held for good,solid and highly valid reasons,some of which,cut to the very reasons for the existence of "Authorities" such as they are.

There are options,but none of them will adapt to the NTA's belief that Monday - Friday 0700-1900 measures will suffice.

It must be somewhat galling,and not a little scary,for Bus Atha Cliath's team at this Pantomine to be so comprehensively,and swiftly undermined,by those agencies whose focus should have been on the Public Transport Customer,rather than on some,as yet undisclosed,sectoral interest.

However,there's always lessons to be learned and I would imagine the likes of Go-Ahead Dublin will be taking something away from this Opera Bouffón performance.

devnull

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

This might be slightly old news to some of you, but NTA have definitely refused to route buses on Parliament Street, cautiously preferring Winetavern Street instead.

I don't read it that way at all.

The NTA quotes suggest they support two way bus operation as their preferred arrangement but acknowledge that is something outside of their control and that the decision on whether they can do this ultimately rests with An Bord Pleanála.

Ultimately ABP have the final say and if they do not rule in favour of their position of supporting two way bus operation, they will have to come up with alternative proposals, even though they would prefer not to.

Two-way bus operation on Parliament Street is our preferred arrangement following any closure of College Green to east west vehicular movement

Are not the quotes of a body is refusing two way bus operation on Parliament Street. ABP are the party who hold the keys here.

hmmm

It's interesting to hear that bus passengers are being sacrificed to provide a plaza in College Green, and allow unfettered access by LUAS. I don't have much time for Fintan O'Toole, but I agree with him about our public transport being a class issue. Apparently if you are a lawyer or a banker, you are entitled to take the LUAS, Dart or Bus directly into the city centre and on to the door of your destination at Four Courts or the IFSC, but if you are bus user commuting from West, North or Southwest Dublin you will be deposited in the middle of nowhere.

And to hear ABP now hold the balance of power is even worse - we have little or no high rise in the city, so forcing vast numbers to commute on Dublin Bus from far afield - maybe they will be magnanimous and allow bus commuters into the city centre, it's real scraps off a rich mans plate. A Republic where are you.

donvito99

hmmm wrote: »

It's interesting to hear that bus passengers are being sacrificed to provide a plaza in College Green, and allow unfettered access by LUAS. I don't have much time for Fintan O'Toole, but I agree with him about our public transport being a class issue. Apparently if you are a lawyer or a banker, you are entitled to take the LUAS, Dart or Bus directly into the city centre and on to the door of your destination at Four Courts or the IFSC, but if you are bus user commuting from West, North or Southwest Dublin you will be deposited in the middle of nowhere.

Cabra, Phibsborough and the Dominick St flats are now the leafy suburbs are they?

devnull

hmmm wrote: »

And to hear ABP now hold the balance of power is even worse - we have little or no high rise in the city, so forcing vast numbers to commute on Dublin Bus from far afield - maybe they will be magnanimous and allow bus commuters into the city centre, it's real scraps off a rich mans plate. A Republic where are you.

The trouble with ABP, is that you'd have to suspect that they will be influenced by the usual groups that they have been in the past, such as the taxi drivers, the luxury hotel lobby and the car park owners and they're not going to care about the average Joe's who take public transport like you and me.

The quotes from the NTA spokesperson appear to suggest that whilst the NTA fully support two way bus running on Parliament Street and it is their number one choice for this planning application, someone from ABP has pretty much said that it's not an option and as such they have moved on to alternatives.

I do however agree that the NTA need to flesh out and demonstrate some alternative proposals of how they are going to make this work as a matter of priority since it isn't very clear.

strandroad

hmmm wrote: »

It's interesting to hear that bus passengers are being sacrificed to provide a plaza in College Green, and allow unfettered access by LUAS. I don't have much time for Fintan O'Toole, but I agree with him about our public transport being a class issue. Apparently if you are a lawyer or a banker, you are entitled to take the LUAS, Dart or Bus directly into the city centre and on to the door of your destination at Four Courts or the IFSC, but if you are bus user commuting from West, North or Southwest Dublin you will be deposited in the middle of nowhere.

How is this a class issue... Red Luas is suddenly posh now? Green Luas serves north inner city and beyond. The D4 serving buses like 4, 7, 46A etc will be redirected with everything else. Quite a bizarre argument from O'Toole.

hmmm

strandroad wrote: »

How is this a class issue... Red Luas is suddenly posh now? Green Luas serves north inner city and beyond. The D4 serving buses like 4, 7, 46A etc will be redirected with everything else. Quite a bizarre argument from O'Toole.

Dublin 4 has the best public transport system in the country with LUAS, the best bus routes with large capacity, modern buses, and it also has the DART. We're also proposing to give it a Metro.

Meanwhile the scraps off the plate are falling to everywhere else - the issues re crime and anti-social behaviour on the Red Line LUAS would never have been tolerated on the Green line LUAS (and rightly so).

The LUAS fiasco through the city centre is being "solved" by re-routing all other forms of public transport. The obvious solution would have been to suspend the service while the issues were sorted out, but no, the LUAS had to run and everyone else could suffer. It is absolutely a class issue.

Spanish Eyes

strandroad wrote: »

How is this a class issue... Red Luas is suddenly posh now? Green Luas serves north inner city and beyond. The D4 serving buses like 4, 7, 46A etc will be redirected with everything else. Quite a bizarre argument from O'Toole.

The point is that those modes actually serve places that people want to go to, leaving class aside for the moment.

A lot of bus services from places that do not have access to DART or Luas may not have similar access though.

Far more people rely on DB than Luas or DART in fairness.

Some intricate planning went into this project alright. Not.

strandroad

hmmm wrote: »

Dublin 4 has the best public transport system in the country with LUAS, the best bus routes with large capacity, modern buses, and it also has the DART. We're also proposing to give it a Metro.

The Luas doesn't touch Dublin 4 and neither will the Metro?

I also used to commute through D4 (no more, thankfully) and let me tell you that the 4 and the 7 are the most miserable bunched pair of buses. You wait for ages for both of them to appear at the same time, and then wait for ages again when large tourist groups embark and pay with coin going from their Ballsbridge hotels into town. And that's without anything happening in the RDS or the Aviva in which case you can simply forget about them.

hmmm wrote: »

Meanwhile the scraps off the plate are falling to everywhere else - the issues re crime and anti-social behaviour on the Red Line LUAS would never have been tolerated on the Green line LUAS (and rightly so).

It's not that it's tolerated as much as there's far less of it due to the socioeconomic makeup below Ranelagh. Windy Arbour or Ballyogan experience antisocial behaviour as they are and I'll reserve judgment until we see how the extended route funnels new audience to Dundrum SC etc.

hmmm wrote: »

The LUAS fiasco through the city centre is being "solved" by re-routing all other forms of public transport. The obvious solution would have been to suspend the service while the issues were sorted out, but no, the LUAS had to run and everyone else could suffer. It is absolutely a class issue.

If you suspended the BXD Luas tomorrow it's the north inner city and beyond passengers who would lose it. Southside folks would only be delighted.

markpb

hmmm wrote: »

Dublin 4 has the best public transport system in the country with LUAS, the best bus routes with large capacity, modern buses, and it also has the DART. We're also proposing to give it a Metro.

Your geography needs a refresher course. The dart runs through Dublin 4. Luas green line serves postcodes 7, 1, 2, 6, 16 and 18. Not a hint of Dublin 4. The parts of the city getting new rail lines are 1, 2, 9, 11 and north county. No Dublin 4 there either.

hmmm

strandroad wrote: »

If you suspended the BXD Luas tomorrow it's the north inner city and beyond passengers who would lose it. Southside folks would only be delighted.

The cross city element of LUAS could have been suspended with little impact.

devnull

hmmm wrote: »

The cross city element of LUAS could have been suspended with little impact.

So on one hand you're complaining that only the most affluent areas of Dublin have good public transport and on the other hand you're asking for the north inner city to have their links temporarily closed?

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

because cyclists and pedestrians are such a great combination

They wouldn't need to share space really. A 2 way cycle lane down the current carriageway would still be narrower than a car lane and the additional space would become pedestrian only. Delivery vehicles could drive on the cycle lane at a certain time in the morning

cgcsb

prinzeugen wrote: »

Why don't you just drop a nuke on the city centre?

Because then drama queens like yourself would be gone and you are too entertaining to loose.

prinzeugen wrote: »

How are all the shops going to get stocked? How are people going to get home after a night out? Etc.

Shops will be stocked by appropriately timed deliveries via loading bays as they currently are on every bus only street across the entire western world, of which there are thousands.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Plenty of pedestrian space in Smithfield. Oh wait. Nobody uses it. A wasteland.

Smithfield never served as a vehicular thoroughfare and referring to Smithfield as a wasteland is ignorance. The place is positively buzzing lots of new restaurants bars and cafés. Do you remember Smithfield before the plaza was built? You probably don't because NOBODY went there, it's now a thousand times better than it used to be and there was no need throw a load of cars in it.

prinzeugen wrote: »

Hatred of cars/motor Vehicles is showing.

Right ok :rolleyes:

trellheim

so we're rerouting the majority public transport carrier away from the core. I absolutely despair at long term planning in this city, we saw this coming more than a decade ago . If you could only pick Temple Bar up and move it 500m west

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

so we're rerouting the majority public transport carrier away from the core.

That's not a great way to look at it, a number of north south bus routes will share space with the luas, many more will use the Capel st-Parliament St-George's Set access (which should be made bus only as much as possible with a high level of bus priority). There is also Wine Tavern St, Butt bridge etc. and other options for other routes. Every bus need not share one small bottle neck indeed that is not desireable at all.

The key issue is there needs to be serious bus priority and car bans at multiple points around the City Centre. It'll be a real game changer and the remaining suburb-city car commuters will be given a real shake up

Sam Russell

I think the provision of parking should be brought into the argument - particularly all-day parking. If all-day parking was restricted, then it would be impossible to make many of the car journeys at peak times.

hmmm

cgcsb wrote: »

The key issue is there needs to be serious bus priority and car bans at multiple points around the City Centre. It'll be a real game changer and the remaining suburb-city car commuters will be given a real shake up

DCC has shown little inclination to ban cars, and appear to be cowed by the prospect of legal threats from the owners of car parks. The only concrete proposals which appear to be on the table are the rerouting of buses, anything else is wishful thinking.

trellheim

so we're rerouting the majority public transport carrier away from the core.

that's not a great way to look at it

what ? Its the only way to look at it. Take some example routes : 16 - incredibly busy now a walk from Bachelors walk at best to Grafton st , 747 ( airport ), 27 , 15, all core routes now a much longer walk to Grafton St and the south core ; this is not taxis and private cars, this is public transport !

I get the Plaza - really, I do - I've seen how Bristol got a lot better. I just can't see how the wider picture works here with people needing to get to work.

ED E

trellheim wrote: »

incredibly busy now a walk from Bachelors walk at best to Grafton st

If thats your only problem then you've little to worry about.

I frequently walk triple that distance to use the 16, another couple hundred meters on the far end won't kill anyone.

trellheim

If thats your only problem then you've little to worry about.

I frequently walk triple that distance to use the 16, another couple hundred meters on the far end won't kill anyone.

Good for you but missing the point ; we are distancing the core routes from the southern heart of the city, removing taxis and PT ; so just for the plaza it's deliberately making the city a worse experience in my view.

AndrewJRenko

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the provision of parking should be brought into the argument - particularly all-day parking. If all-day parking was restricted, then it would be impossible to make many of the car journeys at peak times.

Are there many employers providing all-day parking in the city centre? There's not many people paying for all-day parking in private car parks, or on-street.

Podge_irl

trellheim wrote: »

Good for you but missing the point ; we are distancing the core routes from the southern heart of the city, removing taxis and PT ; so just for the plaza it's deliberately making the city a worse experience in my view.

It is making getting into the core centre a slightly more difficult experience so that being in the city centre is a better experience.

Ultimately I think the whole thing relies on some kind of proper integrated ticketing system as the obvious solution is to simply tell people to hop on a tram for a couple stops is walking bothers them that much.

cgcsb

trellheim wrote: »

what ? Its the only way to look at it. Take some example routes : 16 - incredibly busy now a walk from Bachelors walk at best to Grafton st , 747 ( airport ), 27 , 15, all core routes now a much longer walk to Grafton St and the south core ; this is not taxis and private cars, this is public transport !

I get the Plaza - really, I do - I've seen how Bristol got a lot better. I just can't see how the wider picture works here with people needing to get to work.

Obviously a plan needed to be in place 5 years ago to gradually hand over more and more streets to bus use

Sam Russell

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Are there many employers providing all-day parking in the city centre? There's not many people paying for all-day parking in private car parks, or on-street.

Public service.