Problems with tennants next door

cerastes

Howjoe1 wrote: »

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Missed that bit. In my case the Landlord was also out of the Country also, but his Mother collected the rent, so I bombarded her. Has the Landlord any family members here?

Look, the OP wont cover themselves in glory if they do this, this could be iterpreted as harrassment. Whatever of even reporting this to the person that collects the rent, are you now suggesting harrassing another person because they are related to the landlord, what has it to do with them? dont be suprised if doing this you get a visit from the Gardai yourself, this is not the way to deal with things OP.
I appreciate it will be frustrating, but you need to be careful not to overstep any marks too.

Dont bother bombarding the Agent anymore If they arent listening OP and texts are not as good as emails anyway. Just take a PRTB case, you are wasting your time if they just filter you out and it and giving them the opportunity to use you against yourself if you do or say anything in anger or frustration.

Not my real name

Thanks Cerastes for all that info.

After every incident we sent the agent and landlord detailed descriptions of everything that happened so they both have a full record.

I am going to send another mail tomorrow and ask them have they taken a case and if not I will then start my own case.

Is constantly calling/texting/emailing the landlord seen as harassment?

the_syco

Not my real name wrote: »

I dont like the idea of anyone losing their jobs but they really have NO consideration for us. They know we've young children but they couldnt care less.

jimd2 wrote: »

It wouldnt cast me a thought, remember if they lose their jobs they are out of that house straight away and the new tenants would probably be more on their guard.

Contacting their company, and getting them fired will ensure that they party hard until the rent runs out, and then either get a new job, or move elsewhere.

Think about it; if they don't need to get up Monday morning, why would they stop partying Sunday night?

Not my real name wrote: »

Is constantly calling/texting/emailing the landlord seen as harassment?

Doing so for no reason? Most likely. But I don't know how the law looks at it if you ring them every time there's an anti-social event that the Gardai had to be called out... in the wee hours of the morning.

cerastes

Not my real name wrote: »

Thanks Cerastes for all that info.

After every incident we sent the agent and landlord detailed descriptions of everything that happened so they both have a full record.

I am going to send another mail tomorrow and ask them have they taken a case and if not I will then start my own case.

Is constantly calling/texting/emailing the landlord seen as harassment?

I dont really think you understood my message, I wouldn't contact the agent anymore if you have done so already a number of times and nothing has come of it.
You only needed to give them the main point of whats gone on, if they havent acted on it by now, they dont need a blow by blow account of whats happening at this point, as you are tipping your hand to them where it may be countered by people saying they weren't there or something else.

I suggest you not bother send another mail to the agent to give them details, at worst, Id ring them (agent and landlord each) one last time and ask what they are doing about it? if nothing, tell them if they dont take their own case, you will, then proceed to take a case.

At this point if anti social behaviour and loud noise is continuing you should spend the time contacting someone who will help you do something about it? ring the PRTB, ask their advice and then open a case online. TBH you should only have contacted the agent a handful of times, if after that they had done nothing, then Id have started a case with the PRTB.

Organise yourself, make main points of what you want to ask/say to the PRTB and do likewise when filling in the case application.

April 73

I hate to be negative when the OP is living in a horrible situation but what on earth is the PRTB actually going to do in any reasonable length of time?
There have been plenty of examples on this board of how it can take over a year for cases of non-paying tenants to reach a conclusion in the PRTB.

That said you absolutely should start the process because you have to.

I would be making a nuisance of myself in person at the agent's office. Forget phone calls or emails. Go in person & don't leave until you know exactly what the agent & the landlord are doing. Do everything in your means to track down the landlord's telephone number & use it. If my life was being made miserable like this I would go to the employers too. There's no point in being the decent person in these situations - these people (agent, landlord & tenants) just won't respond to anything other than the screws being turned on them.

In the meantime, as a practical thing, would noise-cancelling headphones help I wonder?

The_Conductor

Uriel. wrote: »

We all know the problems landlords face trying to get rogue tenants removed. If the landlord is following the process he or she can't be liable because of legal and systems failures

Wrong. They are legally liable towards their neighbours.
That the PRTB took x amount of time to resolve the issue- or their agent cooperated at first and then stonewalled the neighbours is irrelevant- the landlord is in fact liable. This is why landlords should be careful about choosing their tenants- if they fill it with students/interns or a crowd of youngsters who like to party- be it on their heads- they may have to pay the price for their inconsideration towards their neighbours. We now have legal precedent supporting this.

jimd2

jimd2 wrote: »

It wouldnt cast me a thought, remember if they lose their jobs they are out of that house straight away and the new tenants would probably be more on their guard.

Your priority is your family (as I am sure you know).

Unfortunately this is not always true is it?

One of the reasons I would be loathe to entertain the idea of contacting the employer tbh!

Problem tenant that has money can move, problem tenant with no money requires an eviction and I believe that they're not exactly quick.

Not my real name

Some food for thought on all responses, thanks.

Got a one line response from the landlord through email to say the agent is dealing with the case.

Which is pretty useless to me because I've no idea how shes 'dealing' with the case. Is it through the PRTB or is it a nice gentle phone call to the lads to turn the music down a little!

I'm making some calls this morning.

Not my real name

Not my real name wrote: »

Some food for thought on all responses, thanks.

Got a one line response from the landlord through email to say the agent is dealing with the case.

Which is pretty useless to me because I've no idea how shes 'dealing' with the case. Is it through the PRTB or is it a nice gentle phone call to the lads to turn the music down a little!

I'm making some calls this morning.

Worth a one-line reply to the landlord asking if the PRTB have been involved, as you have been told that the onus is now on you to contact them if they are not?

Not my real name

Deleted User wrote: »

Worth a one-line reply to the landlord asking if the PRTB have been involved, as you have been told that the onus is now on you to contact them if they are not?

Yep that what hes done, just asked if a case has been opened and left it at that.
I'm still calling the PRTB today to see will they tell me anything.

Uriel.

The_Conductor wrote: »

Wrong. They are legally liable towards their neighbours.
That the PRTB took x amount of time to resolve the issue- or their agent cooperated at first and then stonewalled the neighbours is irrelevant- the landlord is in fact liable. This is why landlords should be careful about choosing their tenants- if they fill it with students/interns or a crowd of youngsters who like to party- be it on their heads- they may have to pay the price for their inconsideration towards their neighbours. We now have legal precedent supporting this.

If the precedent you mention is the case cited above, then I do not believe it has the same strength of precedence in situations where landlords are taking all reasonable steps, including engaging with the PRTB and legal process.

If memory serves, in the Harrington case the Landlord effectively took no action whatsoever despite being put on notice on several occasions by the appellants. In fact I believe he effectively denied that the anti-social behaviour took place, or at least to the degree claimed by the appellants.

Furthermore, prior to the tribunal hearing cited in the Irish Examiner (and other media) the Landlord was served with an adjudication order relating to the behaviour of the tenants. At that point the landlord was effectively warned to get the situation in order. He clearly didn't and he clearly didn't initiate any process with the PRTB to have the tenants removed. Why he wouldn't I really don't know.

But in the context of case where a Landlord takes all reasonable steps, engaging the PRTB at an early stage and the PRTB takes another 11 months (etc.) to deal with the issue, the Landlord' liability I wager will be significantly reduced, and rightly so.

Michael D Not Higgins

Not my real name wrote: »

Yep that what hes done, just asked if a case has been opened and left it at that.
I'm still calling the PRTB today to see will they tell me anything.

It's unlikely they will tell you anything. You could be anyone ringing up to snoop for information. What you can do is open a dispute which should be done no matter what the circumstances of the dispute between the landlord/agent and the tenants (it can be withdrawn at any time if they move out).

Once you've sorted a filling for a dispute, give the details to the other neighbour to do the same. The pressure of several disputes is likely to help you out.

Butters1979

This sounds like a serious issue. The LL is not doing nearly enough. Direct from thresholds website:

In some situations, shorter notice periods may be given to you by your landlord:
- 7 day's notice for serious anti-social behaviour or behaviour that is threatening to the fabric of the dwelling.


Personally I'd at least threaten to bring the LL to court, he needs to deal with this himself. it's his property and his tenants.

Not my real name

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

It's unlikely they will tell you anything. You could be anyone ringing up to snoop for information. What you can do is open a dispute which should be done no matter what the circumstances of the dispute between the landlord/agent and the tenants (it can be withdrawn at any time if they move out).

Once you've sorted a filling for a dispute, give the details to the other neighbour to do the same. The pressure of several disputes is likely to help you out.

They actually did give me details, surprisingly. Said there is no case submitted for the address and advised me to start my own dispute. He also told me to get legal advice on trying to obtain the garda report for the night of the fight.

filbert the fox

cerastes wrote: »

<snip >

Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 facilitates a situation whereby you can seek an order in court requiring a person or persons to cease or reduce the noise level. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks and you need to keep a record of the incidents.

quote from Local Authority correspondence:

"You can apply to the District Court for a Court Order under Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992. If you wish to take further action, you may contact Áras Úi Dhálaigh, (beside the Four Courts) at 01 8886000, who will advise you further regarding this option and can issue you with a date for your court hearing. Typically, if you wish to apply to Court, you will have to pay a stamp duty of €22.00 and attend the Dublin Circuit and District Civil Court Office (which is located on the 1st floor, Áras Úi Dhálaigh in the Four Courts) to issue your papers. You will receive a date for your court hearing and be given information on serving a copy of the application on your neighbour as well as evidence you must bring with you"

handlemaster

the best thing is to keep calling the LL

Uriel.

Butters1979 wrote: »

This sounds like a serious issue. The LL is not doing nearly enough. Direct from thresholds website:

In some situations, shorter notice periods may be given to you by your landlord:
- 7 day's notice for serious anti-social behaviour or behaviour that is threatening to the fabric of the dwelling.


Personally I'd at least threaten to bring the LL to court, he needs to deal with this himself. it's his property and his tenants.

The OP is not a tenant so can't rely on the advice given by Threshold re shorter notice period.

Uriel.

Not my real name wrote: »

They actually did give me details, surprisingly. Said there is no case submitted for the address and advised me to start my own dispute. He also told me to get legal advice on trying to obtain the garda report for the night of the fight.

Definitely start your own dispute. Inform the Agent/LL that you are initiating the process and request from them the steps that they claim to have taken to remedy the matter thus far.

Not my real name

filbert the fox wrote: »

Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act 1992 facilitates a situation whereby you can seek an order in court requiring a person or persons to cease or reduce the noise level. It shouldn't take more than a few weeks and you need to keep a record of the incidents.

quote from Local Authority correspondence:

"You can apply to the District Court for a Court Order under Section 108 of the Environmental Protection Agency Act, 1992. If you wish to take further action, you may contact Áras Úi Dhálaigh, (beside the Four Courts) at 01 8886000, who will advise you further regarding this option and can issue you with a date for your court hearing. Typically, if you wish to apply to Court, you will have to pay a stamp duty of €22.00 and attend the Dublin Circuit and District Civil Court Office (which is located on the 1st floor, Áras Úi Dhálaigh in the Four Courts) to issue your papers. You will receive a date for your court hearing and be given information on serving a copy of the application on your neighbour as well as evidence you must bring with you"

Regarding this quote, is this the same as a noise abatement order? I did look into this previously but I thought it only applied to someone who owned their own home rather than rented.

Butters1979

Uriel. wrote: »

The OP is not a tenant so can't rely on the advice given by Threshold re shorter notice period.

I mean the LL has legal right to evict due to unsocial behavior. They do not need a case with PRTB.

If the LL has not begun this, in my opinion, they are enabling the harassment and suffering. I would tell the LL you want them to do this and if they don't you bring them to court.

This is the LL's issue, if he is not doing everything they can to get rid of the problem tenants then the LL is the problem.

Red Kev

I've dealt with this before OP. My advice is as follows:

There is no point texting or emailing the agent; they don't respond, so they honestly don't give a damn about you, it's also far too convenient for them to ignore an email or text. if you want to talk to them go to the min person, but you'll have no success.

You're going to the PRTB, this will take time, in the meantime you put up with the noise. After the tenants are moved on, there is nothing to stop the owners moving in the exact same type of noisy, anti-social people ao the problem starts all over again.

So you need to target the company who owns the house. You've been driven out of you're house three times by violence attributable to their employees. Get the case/PULSE numbers of the incidents off the Garda station, if the Garda doesn't give it to you, ask to speak to their superior, if that doesn't work find out who the Chief Super for the area is and get on to them, use your local councillor/TD if needed.

When you have this draw up a chronological list of incidents that have happened, then approach the company. Ask to speak in person to whoever is responsible for the rental of the building and tell then you want those people moved within 3 days. On the same visit ask/demand to speak to the PR department and tell them that you've every intention of doing a write up on this and publicising it.

Tell them you will use FB, and all social media to publicise it, you will be contacting the Journal, Indo, all tabloids, Liveline (I despise Duffy, but companies are wary of the programme). Also tell them that you will be looking for a comment off their head office (if not in Ireland).

The people in that house don't give a fcuk about you or your family, so to hell with them if they lose their jobs. If they lose them, I've no sympathy for them.

Nobody should be subjected to the abuse that you're going through and it's up to the company to move them out. I'm 95% sure that they are only allowed to stay there as long as they work there (I've had accommodation like this in the past there are usually strong rules attached to behaviour), so it's no issue for them to get them moved. Do not accept a promise for the noise to be reduced, just get them out, if the company value them they will move them elsewhere.

jimd2

cerastes wrote: »

How so? you might think so, all this tells me you might consider this to be a reasonable or rational expectation, in theoty sound, in practice though, it's another thing.
If they have jobs, they can afford to go somewhere else better.
Besides, it is nothing to do with their employer.

Did you not read the earlier post from the OP saying that it was a company let? She said that the first set of tenants were fine and she helped them with a few things etc. She said that these people left and were replaced by more from the same company, a big European company with an Irish operation. It was only when these new workers came that the trouble started.

At least that was my reading of it anyway and why I suggested involving the company. As far as I am aware these guys are over in Ireland with this company in a house let organised (and possibly paid for ) by the company so on that basis I suggested involving the company in this.

I know that if it was me and my family suffering this abuse and now bullying I would be exhausting all avenues not following a politically correct pussy footing approach.

Rubberchikken

only when you've truly experienced this type of anti-social behaviour involving your home can you actually appreciate how truly awful it is.
if it is a company let, then involve the company.

these people are adults are are behaving in the most deplorable way imaginable. way too easy for letting agents/gardai/ptrb/whoever to wash their hands of it.
something like this has to be tackled head on and if it means informing the company that you will name and shame, then do it.

best of luck

JIdontknow

As said above if it is a company let, if I was in that situation I would tell the company, you've gotten no joy so far from all the other resources you have tried. I would give a breakdown of what's happened, how you've been in contact with the guards and sought legal advice, how many times you've had to up the kids and leave for the night etc. If I am working away etc, it is in my best interests to conduct myself, these lads don't give a sh!t at all to be honest. I would also be pressuring the guards more, and also recording the noise you are exposed to as proof. Not sure what company they are working for but you've seen their badge and know, a simple online search will give you the company contact details.

cerastes

cerastes wrote: »

If they have jobs, they can afford to go somewhere else better.
Besides, it is nothing to do with their employer.
.

the_syco wrote: »

Contacting their company, and getting them fired will ensure that they party hard until the rent runs out, and then either get a new job, or move elsewhere.

Think about it; if they don't need to get up Monday morning, why would they stop partying Sunday night?


Doing so for no reason? Most likely. But I don't know how the law looks at it if you ring them every time there's an anti-social event that the Gardai had to be called out... in the wee hours of the morning.

The op has said more than once that the employer rents the house not the tenants themselves, if they are fired they are out of the house instantly as they will only be allowed live there if employed by the company.

I wonder how do the tenancy laws even work in this instance where a company rents a place and moves different people in and out who work for them, do the actual individual tenants get any rights at all? They may not. Also as the company is renting the house they can forcibly remove a tenant if they wish, they are not the LL remember.

Mrs OBumble

Hanna Teeny Tailgate wrote: »

I wonder how do the tenancy laws even work in this instance where a company rents a place and moves different people in and out who work for them, do the actual individual tenants get any rights at all. they may not. Also as the conopany is renting the house they can forcibly remove a tenant if they wish, they are not the LL remember.

Most likely the guys are seen as licensees of the boss - remember the OP said that the boss lives there with them, but goes home at weekends, unlike the lads who are left to their own devices.

In this situation (unlike most regular tenant issues) the OP definitely should be going to the company, and letting management know about the reputation problems being caused by their employees.

Ideally do so by finding someone who knows someone in management (LinkedIn is great for this) rather than cold-calling - you don't want to be diverted by a receptionist or suchlike.

5uspect

I can't offer any real advice, however perhaps this will lighten your mood momentarily:
http://lifehacker.com/5852903/silence-noisy-neighbors-by-transmitting-signals-through-their-own-speakers

Nothing like Flight of the Valkyries when you've got a hangover.

Not my real name

5uspect wrote: »

I can't offer any real advice, however perhaps this will lighten your mood momentarily:
http://lifehacker.com/5852903/silence-noisy-neighbors-by-transmitting-signals-through-their-own-speakers

Nothing like Flight of the Valkyries when you've got a hangover.

Thanks I might use that method as a very last resort:)

I wouldnt mind if they had decent taste in music but its pure sh!te, all that stuff young people listen to:D

Lux23

I would contact the company immediately. The landlord doesn't seem to be all that concerned, he's an absentee and the agent is probably only concerned with collecting the rent.

So the company is probably the only party in all of this that might have a bit of pull. All you want is for them to turn down the music and be quieter at the weekends? You're not asking much so perhaps if you explain all that the company can mediate some form of a compromise?

ImDave

OP, I echo those above saying contacting the company is your best option for a quick turnaround on this. If presented the right way (which are the facts you have outlined), something like this will be seen as a potential PR disaster if it got picked up publicly, and no company should be willing to take that risk. They will also be concerned about protecting themselves, as there is (potentially) a question of vicarious liability here if the lease does lie with the company, and the issues described are being caused by their employees.