Am I entitled to redundancy after a 2+ year fixed term contract?

oxygen

Hi

My current employment has been 2 x 1 year fixed contracts with an extension of 4 months after completion of the second contract. So the way it was

Contact 1 April 2014 - April 2015
Contact 2 April 2015 - April 2016
Contact 3 April 2016 - July 2016

It was indicated verbally through the first 2 years that my position would be made full time, but there was nothing on paper or that a 3rd party can corroborate. I was offered the extension contract in March 2016, this was the first I heard that my position wasn't going to made full time.

If I see out my contract am I entitled to redundancy of 2 years? The citizens information website is a little bit vague around this.

"An employee who has worked continuously for at least 104 weeks under a fixed-term or specified purpose contract may qualify for a redundancy payment when the contract ends."

I called the Workplace Relations Commission but they could only my details and review then and get back to me.

Thanks in advance, please understand I am not trying to screw over my current employer, I appreciate that they offered my 4 extra months in with to gain other employment, but on the other hand, this 4 months is to see out a project completion date and possibly because of the shot notice of the non-renewal of my current position.

Mrs OBumble

I seem to remember that the law is a bit vague.

That said, I've done some gigs in a multi-national thru a large agency, and their (agency) policy now that redundancy would be payable in your situation. i don't think they would do this unless they had a reasonable belief that it is legally required.

livedadream

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Hi

My current employment has been 2 x 1 year fixed contracts with an extension of 4 months after completion of the second contract. So the way it was

Contact 1 April 2014 - April 2015
Contact 2 April 2015 - April 2016
Contact 3 April 2016 - July 2016

It was indicated verbally through the first 2 years that my position would be made full time, but there was nothing on paper or that a 3rd party can corroborate. I was offered the extension contract in March 2016, this was the first I heard that my position wasn't going to made full time.

If I see out my contract am I entitled to redundancy of 2 years? The citizens information website is a little bit vague around this.

"An employee who has worked continuously for at least 104 weeks under a fixed-term or specified purpose contract may qualify for a redundancy payment when the contract ends."

I called the Workplace Relations Commission but they could only my details and review then and get back to me.

Thanks in advance, please understand I am not trying to screw over my current employer, I appreciate that they offered my 4 extra months in with to gain other employment, but on the other hand, this 4 months is to see out a project completion date and possibly because of the shot notice of the non-renewal of my current position.

No, You were employed on a fixed term - project- basis. Your project is ending therefore the role will not exist anymore.

oxygen

Thanks Bumble, livedadream.

Lived a dream is that just from your reading of the situation or have you heard of it or experienced this situation. I was hoping to get information from people's experience such as Bumble was able draw from

livedadream

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Thanks Bumble, livedadream.

Lived a dream is that just from your reading of the situation or have you heard of it or experienced this situation. I was hoping to get information from people's experience such as Bumble was able draw from

I work in HR and specialise in employment law (and training but thats irrelevant really), you said you were given a extension for 4 months to finalise a project. they will argue that you were employed on a fixed term project basis.

They dont need to pay you redundancy.

Ms Bumbles experience (from my reading of her post) is as a contractor through an agency, in her case the agency would have negotiated terms with the employer to suit them and their clients (Ms Bumble in this case) so they dont have to pay out after the 12 months are up.

Lux23

I was made redundant from a permanent role after two years and I seem to remember all the contractors who were there longer than me getting nothing. You could maybe argue your case but I can't imagine a company going out of their way to give you redundancy (apart from a good will gesture of course).

Mrs OBumble

livedadream wrote: »

Ms Bumbles experience (from my reading of her post) is as a contractor through an agency, in her case the agency would have negotiated terms with the employer to suit them and their clients (Ms Bumble in this case) so they dont have to pay out after the 12 months are up.

Nope, that's not it.

The agency have said that they do pay redundancy to anyone whose so-called fixed-term contract ends after more than 2 years. Not because they've negotiated, but because they believe they have to.

I was very surprised to hear this - like the earlier poster, I thought that the argument about fixed term and projects held. But i have seen written evidence otherwise from the agency (my employer)

oxygen

Thanks for the replies, it really is a grey area, I think because the fixed term contract ends longer than 104 weeks. I contacted the Workplace Relations Commisions again and after explaining the situation again to them, they said I was entitled to it, but that the employer could argue their case then I could make a claim but they seemed really vague on the specifics as well.

Its about 3.5-4k if Im entitled to it. Its allot to walk away from but I would probably need to get legal aid, which will cost 200-300 at least, also I would be leaving my current employer on bad form, which will negatively effect my reference.

livedadream

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Nope, that's not it.

The agency have said that they do pay redundancy to anyone whose so-called fixed-term contract ends after more than 2 years. Not because they've negotiated, but because they believe they have to.

I was very surprised to hear this - like the earlier poster, I thought that the argument about fixed term and projects held. But i have seen written evidence otherwise from the agency (my employer)

fair enough, their not legally obligated to, just makes them a sound employer.

ive had people on project basis - fixed term contacts who have been let go at the end of their contract, this individual is being let go at the end of her contact her role is not being made redundant therefore no payment needs to be made.

ive also had people who were on fixed term contracts be paid redundancy because they were being let go before their contract ended or because their role was ceasing to exist.

livedadream

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Thanks for the replies, it really is a grey area, I think because the fixed term contract ends longer than 104 weeks. I contacted the Workplace Relations Commisions again and after explaining the situation again to them, they said I was entitled to it, but that the employer could argue their case then I could make a claim but they seemed really vague on the specifics as well.

Its about 3.5-4k if Im entitled to it. Its allot to walk away from but I would probably need to get legal aid, which will cost 200-300 at least, also I would be leaving my current employer on bad form, which will negatively effect my reference.

and your name will be published in the WRC and HR journals, its a big step to take,
if you feel you have been wronged then fair enough.

however from my reading and my view you entered into a contract of employment with your org knowing it was fixed term. them saying it might or will be perm doesnt come into it if you dont have it in writing.

i understand you wanted it to become permanent however you do need to be realistic, this company have extending your contract and given you the opportunity to job hunt while still working and seem to be pretty flexible do you really want to burn a bridge like that?

you need to weigh up if you think its worth it, and forget about the 4k that will mean nothing to you if you are effectively unemployable at the end of it.
or if you think they are doing it maliciously.

db

I don't have any direct experience of it myself but is this not why most contractors are let go after 12 months and hired back after a month so they do not build up additional rights based on tenure?

silent_spark

From my understanding you are entitled to the statutory payment. There's legislation that prevents the use of consecutive temporary contracts to circumvent not paying. The maximum statutory payment is capped at €600 per week though (so you would not be entitled to your full salary). If you fulfil the required number of weeks, and the role no longer exists, then it is a redundancy scenario.

Mrs OBumble

db wrote: »

I don't have any direct experience of it myself but is this not why most contractors are let go after 12 months and hired back after a month so they do not build up additional rights based on tenure?

Yes, but it's not as clear cut as "you have to be off for more than 30 days" - I've heard tell of cases where a 3 month break wasn't considered enough, because the person came back to exactly the same job.

I suspect this is why it's grey.

Bandana boy

Is your contract with a contracting firm/agency or direct with the place you are working ?

oxygen

Bandana boy wrote: »

Is your contract with a contracting firm/agency or direct with the place you are working ?

It's direct with the place in working

davo10

Op, after searching through lots of sites regarding your question, not one of them, including employment law firms seem to be able or willing to give a definitive answer to your question, all include "may be entitled to redundancy" which indicates it is decided on a case by case basis. It seems that the wording of the contract, as always in the case of fixed term contracts, is important. If your contract states that the terms of the UDA do not apply at the end of the contract and that it states that there is a defined purpose which when complete, the contract ends, does seem to give the employer a get out clause, but even that seems not to be set in stone. The max you would seem to be allowed is €600 per week with statutory redundancy. You will have to decide if this is worth bringing your employer to court/tribunal over and what effect this may have on your reference and future job prospects in your industry. Other employers may not be inclined to offer you contracts for similar projects if they think you are likely to bring a case like this at the end of the contract. Also, it may be a long battle to get your money.

wavydave

The key point here is that it is not the person but the job that becomes redundant. If you are on a 2+ year fixed term contract and your contract comes to an end BUT the job is still there (and someone else will be doing the job) then no redundancy is payable. If you work on a construction project for example, and at the end of your contract the job is also no longer there (because the project is complete), then redundancy is payable.

juke

I think you will be entitled to a redundancy payment if you have had your 104 weeks continuous employment as at the date of dismissal.

Under section 2 Redundancy Payments 1967 act, as amended by the Protection of Employees (Fixed-Term Work) Act 2003

“date of dismissal”, in relation to an employee, means—
(c) where he is employed under a contract for a fixed term, and that term expires without the contract being renewed, the date on which that term expires,”

Under a strict interpretation of the act, I think, when the extended contract comes to a natural end you are entitled to statutory redundancy.

oxygen

again, thanks very much for the replies, especially Davo for researching it further. As you can see from all the debate on it, it is a really grey area, messily grey tbh, you think they’d clear it up a bit.

Personally I think I am entitled to it, but I would need to confront my current employer about it, lawyer up, burn my reference, stay in a job I know is dead end for the next 4 months and still be faced with a possibility of not getting anything out of it at the end. Corporation’s pockets are far deeper than mine. I do feel a bit hard done by, but I'm sure my current employer would not have offered me the 4 extra months if they thought there was any possibility of redundancy from it, they were offering my a bit of a life line.

I think it’s probably best to shake it off and start looking to move as soon as I can. We can agree though that its shakey advice at best from the Workplace Relations Commission to just go for it. I think they need to rethink who mans those lines

Bandana boy

Rather than go down the redundancy route , I would approach your employer and agree a bonus to complete the project before you finish up.

Monife

I was employed on a fixed purpose contract for a long-term project and was employed for 2 and a half years. My employers did not pay me redundancy however in my current job, my current employers paid fixed term workers (who were employed for more than 2 years) redundancy when they were let go. So I contacted my previous employers highlighting the fact that I was entitled to redundancy, quoted the relevant piece of legislation etc and I received the statutory redundancy for that position.

No need for legal advice unless they play serious hardball. Just look up employment law yourself and write a strongly worded letter and give them a set period to respond to you by or threaten to take them to the Employment Tribunal or court.

oxygen

Monife wrote: »

I was employed on a fixed purpose contract for a long-term project and was employed for 2 and a half years. My employers did not pay me redundancy however in my current job, my current employers paid fixed term workers (who were employed for more than 2 years) redundancy when they were let go. So I contacted my previous employers highlighting the fact that I was entitled to redundancy, quoted the relevant piece of legislation etc and I received the statutory redundancy for that position.

No need for legal advice unless they play serious hardball. Just look up employment law yourself and write a strongly worded letter and give them a set period to respond to you by or threaten to take them to the Employment Tribunal or court.

Thanks Mobile, can I ask did you leave before your contract was out or complete the contract?

They've indicated to me that they are ok with me looking for interviewing for other jobs and leaving if I can find other employment...

Monife

oxygen_temp wrote: »

Thanks Mobile, can I ask did you leave before your contract was out or complete the contract?

They've indicated to me that they are ok with me looking for interviewing for other jobs and leaving if I can find other employment...

It was an open ended contract and I got the statutory notice when they couldn't keep me on anymore. It was almost 2 years after that before I realised I was entitled to redundancy