Teacher/Government pay & CP hour talks etc

evolving_doors

km79 wrote: »

HRA ends in June
school year ends in June
calendars need to be done by then
I'm actually suprised and very pleased they have had the foresight to get the ballot and results sorted before we break up for the summer
Vote no to them and that should be that then . done and dusted and we can really enjoy the summer !

Aye, but if it runs out then it runs out, no vote needed. Just plan timetable on the assumption that CP is gone! No?
(not so easy for Tui or mixed schools though!)

mirrorwall14

I honestly wasn't paying that much attention at the time but apparently the last time there was discussion over croke park hours schools ended up having to complete the 33hrs in less than a year. The school I'm in now apparently ran a 5hr Croke park day at the end of the school year as a consequence. Thats mainly why we have two schedules drawn up. At least if the union fails then we can facilitate a quick change over and avoid a similar situation

deiseindublin

Still nothing on ASTI or TUI site about the talks.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

Still nothing on ASTI or TUI site about the talks.

I reckon they're working overtime in negotiations. Maybe the whole lot will be wrapped up together CP/LR/HR/JC/PAyscales. At this stage I reckon the new Junior cert is coming in in some shape or form (probably do the assessment but send home a report as opposed to adding it on to the state exam for certification). Whatever about english (Sorryy!!) having a delay for Science will put the whole 'Smart Economy' at risk don't ya know.

So who are they negotiating with anyway?.... the minister or the dept? Does it really matter what minister we have as invariably it's the 'government for life' who make all the decisions!

Jamfa

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I reckon they're working overtime in negotiations. Maybe the whole lot will be wrapped up together CP/LR/HR/JC/PAyscales. At this stage I reckon the new Junior cert is coming in in some shape or form (probably do the assessment but send home a report as opposed to adding it on to the state exam for certification). Whatever about english (Sorryy!!) having a delay for Science will put the whole 'Smart Economy' at risk don't ya know.

So who are they negotiating with anyway?.... the minister or the dept? Does it really matter what minister we have as invariably it's the 'government for life' who make all the decisions!

The Minister conceded that last year and the classroom-based assessments are reported separately to the state exam. There is no combination of marks but the results appear in the JCPA but are separate results. Students will still receive their stand alone Junior SEC results in the Sept after 3rd year.
It's hard to see how the DES could concede any further & still maintain the junior cycle is being reformed.

deiseindublin

Jamfa wrote: »

It's hard to see how the DES could concede any further & still maintain the junior cycle is being reformed.

Resources & time both need to be looked at.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

Resources & time both need to be looked at.

40 mins per week professional time and the availability of hours for a coordinator of jc is a considerable amiuntvof resources surely?

deiseindublin

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

Jamfa

deiseindublin wrote: »

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

That does sound like a worst case scenario where you have 3 different subjects in 2nd & 3rd year every year. The DES conceded to allocate 22 hours per year which is far better than what was originally proposed or not even offered. Prep for the assessments & admin are to replace traditional forms of school assessment such as house exams so therefore shouldn't be seen as extra. As each new subject specification becomes established there shouldn't be much need for planning etc.
The problem this year in ASTI schools like my own is there has been no inservice & English teachers have missed out on school workshops & the opportunity to each have 10 hours substituted cover to plan & prepare. Science & Business teachers have also not attended CPD & no school planning for junior cycle has happened.

man_no_plan

deiseindublin wrote: »

40 mins isn't a lot of time, especially as there will be a 2 hour meeting per subject per year (2 & 3). If you teach Maths, Science and CSPE that's potentially 2 hours x 3 subjects x 2 years (2nd & 3rd) = 12 hours gone out of the 22, so now you've only 10 hours left to set the assessments and do the admis, so 100 mins each per class per year!

Better yet it looks like these 2 hour meetings will have to be after 4pm/last class as they are department wide meetings. I don't know of any Maths or Science department where they would collectively end up with the same 2 hour block off during the day. I've no interest in a 40 min break mid morning once a week and then have the prospect of 6 x 6pm finishes instead.

Also, resources/money will be needed to set up new subjects.

I completely agree regarding the timetabling of meetings and so on and the practical effect of having a random free class.

Initially I thought it was madness as it was impractical but getting the department to recognise the idea of professional time is very significant. One of the great achievements of the tui in the past was having the contract reduced from 23 to 22 hours. Its a weeks less teaching in the year.

As for resources in money terms for equipment etc of course that will need to come.

The fact is that we are looking at a circular letter implenting new curricula, they are the rules now whether we like it or not.

deiseindublin

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

evolving_doors

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

Just be careful if your school starts asking if teachers would like an 'earlier start'. The initial teaser will be " oh you'll get to finish earlier". I was talking to a teacher in the UK and they said that's how it started. Now it's meetings every morning (which is basically requests for paperwork to be handed in). Then it's more meetings and paperwork when kids have gone home writing up 'learning outcomes' for each student.

Jamfa

deiseindublin wrote: »

Just because something is far better than was originally proposed doesn't mean that it's now acceptable.

I don't care about the hours much personally but I'M NOT INTERESTED in being there until 6pm more days. End of.

Do you have a half day? You could always do the SLAR meeting before school!

byhookorbycrook

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just be careful if your school starts asking if teachers would like an 'earlier start'. The initial teaser will be " oh you'll get to finish earlier". I was talking to a teacher in the UK and they said that's how it started. Now it's meetings every morning (which is basically requests for paperwork to be handed in). Then it's more meetings and paperwork when kids have gone home writing up 'learning outcomes' for each student.

The new language curriculum in primary is only supposed to be monitored by doing up outcomes for a few pupils, so not at all an issue, right??

Just like how how IEPs were not to be done until we had resources and training. Now they are being insisted upon.

We were told standard tests would only have to be reported to parents, suddenly it was also to the DES but we were assured that it was only for statistics. Now the DES will use those results to remove supports from schools.

deiseindublin

Jamfa wrote: »

Do you have a half day? You could always do the SLAR meeting before school!

No, would be very straightforward if we did.

Only example given on ASTI website is of a school with a 1/2 day during the week. I think that's very telling tbh.

solerina

In fairness we have a half day but I really don't want to give this up for more meetings, we have already worked our week to get it. one 40 min class getting constantly grouped into after school meetings is going to become very annoying after a while !!
I don't mind giving up my half days for extra curricular or extra classes but yet more meetings....No thanks !!

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

The new language curriculum in primary is only supposed to be monitored by doing up outcomes for a few pupils, so not at all an issue, right??

Just like how how IEPs were not to be done until we had resources and training. Now they are being insisted upon.

We were told standard tests would only have to be reported to parents, suddenly it was also to the DES but we were assured that it was only for statistics. Now the DES will use those results to remove supports from schools.

Sorry Point of info!
Not too sure about primary but the secondary unions have a directive against IEP's. There's quite a number of teachers who just blindly assume they ' have to do them'. Keep in mind too an IEP is a legal document, and as such schools/teachers can be (And have been!) brought to court for failing to carry out the IEP.
This was all part of the Epsen act, which only half was enacted!

tosh999

Getting back on thread ...... it will be interesting to see if a better organised ASTI ballot will increase the numbers who vote and if so how militant the ordinary, recently non voting ASTI member, is.

Recent NUACHT newsletter makes it pretty clear whats at stake - no pay increase, no increment restoration, serious financial hit for those many APs over 65k.

deiseindublin

TUI rejected LRA.

CP hours are supposed to be gone at end June also, will be interesting what they propose instead though. Whatever it is, we'll be voting on it in the next 4 weeks.

doc_17

tosh999 wrote: »

Getting back on thread ...... it will be interesting to see if a better organised ASTI ballot will increase the numbers who vote and if so how militant the ordinary, recently non voting ASTI member, is.

Recent NUACHT newsletter makes it pretty clear whats at stake - no pay increase, no increment restoration, serious financial hit for those many APs over 65k.

The only way to scrap CP hours was by joint TUI and ASTI action - unfortunately this will not happen as they have accepted the HRA.

Have you mistaken HRA for Lansdowne Rd Agreement? HRA was 2014 and accepted by both ASTI & TUI. TUI has rejected LRA which was the most recent deal

Zizigirl

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0033_2016.pdf

New circular regarding suspension of increments to 1st July 2018

man_no_plan

I was just about to post this - basically if you don't accept the LRA its FEMPI all the way.

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0030_2016.pdf

PART 2
Suspension of Incremental Progression until 1 July 2018 for Grades not covered by the
Public Service Stability Agreement 2013-2018 (Haddington Road Agreement/
Lansdowne Road Agreement)

7. The expiry date of 1 July 2017 for increment measures under the HRA set out in this
Circular applies only to grades which are covered by a collective agreement, namely the
Public Service Stability Agreement 2013-2018 (Haddington Road Agreement/Lansdowne
Road Agreement).

8. The Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest Act 2015 provides that where the
trade union representing a grade is not covered by a collective agreement, incremental
progression for staff in that grade will be suspended until 1 July 2018. Further instruction in
relation to this will issue in due course.

and it doesn't matter if you're in a union or not - if the unions in the sector are out we're all out - not like the strike days where non union members got paid

km79

man_no_plan wrote: »

I was just about to post this - basically if you don't accept the LRA its FEMPI all the way.

Which will SURELY be challenged in the courts !
I'll take my chances anyway
Would rather a temporary pay freeze than pointless evenings

mirrorwall14

km79 wrote: »

Which will SURELY be challenged in the courts !
I'll take my chances anyway
Would rather a temporary pay freeze than pointless evenings

Senior TUI member said this morning they can't afford the court case....

man_no_plan

km79 wrote: »

Which will SURELY be challenged in the courts !
I'll take my chances anyway
Would rather a temporary pay freeze than pointless evenings

Oh probably but at least we know what's on the table. the timing in advance of the ASTI ballot is interesting - I wonder will the disaffected suddenly become more interested, either for or against?

man_no_plan

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Senior TUI member said this morning they can't afford the court case....

Who the TUI or the DES? Source?

Charles Babbage

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

Senior TUI member said this morning they can't afford the court case....

Surely there are other unions in the PS with similar interests?

km79

What govt minister has signed off on this circular ????

mirrorwall14

man_no_plan wrote: »

Who the TUI or the DES? Source?

TUI. It was a casual conversation so I won't post it publicly. Said that there wasn't enough of us out of LRA to fight it

mirrorwall14

Just read that. Bloody hell thats outrageous. And what about the guards, and the doctors? Didn't the IMO reject too?