The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

blue5000

I see someone bought a lot of cows and then refused to pay for them

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0415/782168-cork-debt-cows/

Mods if this is inappropriate kindly remove it...



Mod:

Please read post#36 carefully.

Previous related discussion can be found on the Bank Foreclosure thread here.

RightTurnClyde

blue5000 wrote: »

I see someone bought a lot of cows and then refused to pay for them

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0415/782168-cork-debt-cows/

Mods if this is inappropriate kindly remove it...

:):):):):)
Cute cork boys
Lol

jimmy G M

blue5000 wrote: »

I see someone bought a lot of cows and then refused to pay for them

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0415/782168-cork-debt-cows/

Mods if this is inappropriate kindly remove it...

Crafty, one way to buck up an auction, presumably they had to put up some kind of deposit for a bidding number, but would be relatively small I presum?e

blue5000

Are they all going to be slaughtered now instead??

BoatMad

blue5000 wrote: »

Are they all going to be slaughtered now instead??

the article says they will be re-sold

pedigree 6

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

:):):):):)
Cute cork boys
Lol

Probably got the milk out of them and all.:p

freedominacup

pedigree 6 wrote: »

Probably got the milk out of them and all.:p

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

20silkcut

Here here the rebel county lives up to its name.
Great to see a bit of fight in the farming community.

farmerjj

20silkcut wrote: »

Here here the rebel county lives up to its name.
Great to see a bit of fight in the farming community.

Don't know why people are so happy will this all just be more expense for the banks, and just mean more of a chance they will go after the family home.

Bullocks

farmerjj wrote: »

Don't know why people are so happy will this all just be more expense for the banks, and just mean more of a chance they will go after the family home.

I don't think they'll get the family home after all the publicity this has got .

Brown Podzol

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

+1
It's been reported that the sherif spent between €1 and €2m to realise €6k to €7k. This will reduce that figure. Not good business on the sherif's part. Seems vindictive or just putting down a marker, no harm to frustrate them. On the family home , ACC used to insist that the home was transferred into a separate folio because realising security containing the family home is very tricky, a lot of protection in law.

Sam Kade

The best of the cows were bought by the two bidders even though there were 150 bidders there, they musy have been busy.

RightTurnClyde

farmerjj wrote: »

Don't know why people are so happy will this all just be more expense for the banks, and just mean more of a chance they will go after the family home.

Mrs. Sheriff, is laying it on a bit thick with her €1M bill and her "shocked with the condition of the cows". A little taste of her own medicine.
She should have got a few cork lads to look after the cows for the last while instead of those Dutch lads, they would have done a cracking job for half the price. :)

Farmer Ed

No need to shoot that sherif. She seems well capable of shooting herself in the foot.

Short history lesson. The first healys to arrive in kilgarvan were said to come from Cork. Not before they shot a sherif on the way back.

paddysdream

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

Rubbish.
If I borrow your tractor and then refuse to give it back until it suits me should all my neighbours help and sympathise with me?
Those Dutch "pricks" were doing their job same as the sheriff ,guards there on duty (pictures in paper) etc etc.
And yes it prob. is coming to a townland near me. What should I do ?Stand in solidarity with someone who has messed about for years,paid no one they could avoid and when they couldn't avoid it,paid as little and late as possible?
Not a hope
.Genuine hard luck cases are very rare and they deserve help but people who borrow millions and then it all goes wrong ?Would people feel the same about all those builders/developers who went under a few years ago?Just cause its farmers that are feeling the cold wind of reality at this time is no reason to lose our reason

Bass Reeves

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

The real losers in this case are the unsecured creditors. In normal receiverships things like this only make it financial outcome worse. Also because the sheriff had to bring in expertise from abroad to run the farm this added to the cost. In the US if you hinder a reveivership you lose all protection from the court.

Bullocks wrote: »

I don't think they'll get the family home after all the publicity this has got .

I borrowed from ACC/Rabo bank in 2005 they stressed that they did not want the house as security. All my repayments are on schedule I have not heard from them except for yearly statements on the loan. My interest rate at present is below 2% as I have a tracker type loan.

Brown Podzol wrote: »

+1
It's been reported that the sherif spent between €1 and €2m to realise €6k to €7k. This will reduce that figure. Not good business on the sherif's part. Seems vindictive or just putting down a marker, no harm to frustrate them. On the family home , ACC used to insist that the home was transferred into a separate folio because realising security containing the family home is very tricky, a lot of protection in law.

IF you read Thursday journal it gives details about the state of the parlour, the milk from the cows scc etc. It was not totally favourable to the debtor IMO someone else may have a different opinion. If you deliberately frustrate a receiver in the US you lose everything.

RightTurnClyde wrote: »

Mrs. Sheriff, is laying it on a bit thick with her €1M bill and her "shocked with the condition of the cows". A little taste of her own medicine.
She should have got a few cork lads to look after the cows for the last while instead of those Dutch lads, they would have done a cracking job for half the price. :)

The journal is quite clear about the sheriff's costs. Why did the sheriff hire 30 security men, why did she have to bring in expertise from abroad. If you borrow a money and at the end of 8 years have only interest paid but no capital repayments is the loan sustainable. IMO any loan that goes beyond 2-3 years interest only is unsustainable.

I am being a Devils Advacote to a certain extent at the end of the day if you try to frustrate banks they will break you. The will to an extent make an example of you. Calling the Dutch workers names is the same as if Transdev brings in replacement drivers from abroad Trade unionists calling them scabs. Yet a good few here would have no issue(myself included) if the LUAs goes to that. I would have sympathy for the drivers that lose there job just like a farmers that loses everything but at the same time you cannot step outside the line.

People often fail to look at why it happened and was the business unsustainable. Then if you do you are considered unsympathic if you point out reasons why you think that the business failed.

The ones I feel sorry for here are the unsecured creditors. There is a big difference between getting 20-50c/euro back and getting nothing. That 20-50% of your money may be the difference between you surviving and not. I would like to see the amount of unsecured credit involved it might also answer a few questions if it is very substandical it may answer as to if the business was sustainable

viztopia

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

If some one uses a loan to buy land or cattle then obviously they have outbid some one on either of these. If they now can not pay back these loans did they not have an unfair advantage over the under bidders in the first place?

keep going

ah lads would ye shut up about this because ye dont know the full story.

patsy_mccabe

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If banks can't chase bad loans, then banks will refuse to lend to farmers. Simple as that.

Sam Kade

Mega dairies in the US use investors for finance which a safer bet when thing go belly up.

20silkcut

Bass Reeves wrote: »

The real losers in this case are the unsecured creditors. In normal receiverships things like this only make it financial outcome worse. Also because the sheriff had to bring in expertise from abroad to run the farm this added to the cost. In the US if you hinder a reveivership you lose all protection from the court.



I borrowed from ACC/Rabo bank in 2005 they stressed that they did not want the house as security. All my repayments are on schedule I have not heard from them except for yearly statements on the loan. My interest rate at present is below 2% as I have a tracker type loan.




IF you read Thursday journal it gives details about the state of the parlour, the milk from the cows scc etc. It was not totally favourable to the debtor IMO someone else may have a different opinion. If you deliberately frustrate a receiver in the US you lose everything.



The journal is quite clear about the sheriff's costs. Why did the sheriff hire 30 security men, why did she have to bring in expertise from abroad. If you borrow a money and at the end of 8 years have only interest paid but no capital repayments is the loan sustainable. IMO any loan that goes beyond 2-3 years interest only is unsustainable.

I am being a Devils Advacote to a certain extent at the end of the day if you try to frustrate banks they will break you. The will to an extent make an example of you. Calling the Dutch workers names is the same as if Transdev brings in replacement drivers from abroad Trade unionists calling them scabs. Yet a good few here would have no issue(myself included) if the LUAs goes to that. I would have sympathy for the drivers that lose there job just like a farmers that loses everything but at the same time you cannot step outside the line.

People often fail to look at why it happened and was the business unsustainable. Then if you do you are considered unsympathic if you point out reasons why you think that the business failed.

The ones I feel sorry for here are the unsecured creditors. There is a big difference between getting 20-50c/euro back and getting nothing. That 20-50% of your money may be the difference between you surviving and not. I would like to see the amount of unsecured credit involved it might also answer a few questions if it is very substandical it may answer as to if the business was sustainable

Massive difference between a farmer and a luas worker. Don't know how anyone could side with these vulture funds no matter how well off or over ambitious the debtor is perceived .
These guys need to be driven out of this country now. They are the financial Black and Tans. It is great to see farmers collaborating together cohesively. It needs to be done on a much greater scale to halt the incessant decline of rural Ireland. But to see the insiders get a bloody nose is a good days work.

freedominacup

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If banks can't chase bad loans, then banks will refuse to lend to farmers. Simple as that.

Up to now banks have had to pull easy when chasing "bad" loans to farmers this never stopped them lending to farmers so far. Anyone who expanded rapidly in the seventies has a story about banks telling them to sell land or whatever was the current weeks brainwave when interest rates went into the high teens and beyond in the early eighties. Very few sales ensued and very few loans didn't work themselves out. Loans secured on land have to be paid because land is the tools of your trade. You can't sell it and do a runner without deeds and they get to use the huge ltv disparity to cover off all sorts of other dodgy creditlines. These are the reasons why banks acting the maggot has to be resisted. If that means the odd unworthy case gets support so be it.

Buford T. Justice XIX

freedominacup wrote: »

Up to now banks have had to pull easy when chasing "bad" loans to farmers this never stopped them lending to farmers so far. Anyone who expanded rapidly in the seventies has a story about banks telling them to sell land or whatever was the current weeks brainwave when interest rates went into the high teens and beyond in the early eighties. Very few sales ensued and very few loans didn't work themselves out. Loans secured on land have to be paid because land is the tools of your trade. You can't sell it and do a runner without deeds and they get to use the huge ltv disparity to cover off all sorts of other dodgy creditlines. These are the reasons why banks acting the maggot has to be resisted. If that means the odd unworthy case gets support so be it.

I will have to disagree with you there, freedom.

I remember going to 5 or 6 land sales with my father when land purchased had to be sold to avoid the whole business going to the wall. It was mostly land bought in Limerick by Kerry farmers not far from the county bounds. It may have been different in Waterford, though.

However, very few home farms were sold, it was normally the purchased land sold with a large chunk of the loan left being written off and a much smaller or no loan repayments left to work out the loan.

jaymla627

keep going wrote: »

ah lads would ye shut up about this because ye dont know the full story.

Whatever the "full story" is the fact that the dairy had stopped collecting milk from the farm due to a crazy high scc shows the farm was finished as a going concern ....
Whatever about the rights our wrongs of the situation on both sides, the farmer had lost the ability to run his dairy herd, it's as open and shut as that and the bank was well within its rights....
Everyone on here must agree that once any farmer has his milk refused by the dairy company they are more our less finished and when you consider the scale of the herd the losses being occurred in sales alone would of been astronomical on a monthly basis

orm0nd

blue5000 wrote: »

I see someone bought a lot of cows and then refused to pay for them

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0415/782168-cork-debt-cows/

Mods if this is inappropriate kindly remove it...

appartently 2 "buyers" bought a large number . mainly cows

both people were well known to the farmer (allegedly)

20silkcut

jaymla627 wrote: »

Whatever the "full story" is the fact that the dairy had stopped collecting milk from the farm due to a crazy high scc shows the farm was finished as a going concern ....
Whatever about the rights our wrongs of the situation on both sides, the farmer had lost the ability to run his dairy herd, it's as open and shut as that and the bank was well within its rights....
Everyone on here must agree that once any farmer has his milk refused by the dairy company they are more our less finished and when you consider the scale of the herd the losses being occurred in sales alone would of been astronomical on a monthly basis

Let's not get this thread shut down too

Brown Podzol

ACC loan management are no better or no worse than a vulture fund at this stage. Vulture funds are buying farm loans for between 15% and 50% I'm told. If these loans were offered to farmers at these rates I'm sure most if not all could refinance and other creditors would stand a chance of being paid as farmers could then trade out of their difficulties. The farmer in question has said in interviews that he had agreed to buy the loan at 50% discount more than once but the bank refused to proceed. The bank will be lucky to realise 50% at this stage and creditors have very little chance of getting their money.
The thing is that the farm loans are being packaged with other rubbish loans with very little chance of recovering anything. Distressed farm loans with very good LTV are being used to sell the rubbish loans. Now if the vulture funds have to recalculate what they pay for farm loans, in view of what has happened in Cork, it may force the banks to negotiate with farmers.

WheatenBriar

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. If banks can't chase bad loans, then banks will refuse to lend to farmers. Simple as that.

But banks have their toast buttered on both sides
They've been bailed out to the tune of the distressed loans (inc rabbobank from bonds)via us as taxpayers and now they want money from the distressed loans too,in the most miserable way possible in this case?
Its immoral

hometruths

Don't know the full story obviously, but any views I have are based on what the lad himself has said publicly. One quote stands out:

"Peter Kingston said that he felt that he’s like to do more in life than just farming, even though it was his ‘thing’ for so many years.

In order to do this, he said, he needed to expand his farm big enough to sustain employment of other people to do the work, so that he could get away."

https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/its-a-surreal-experience-like-the-day-after-a-funeral-peter-kingston-on-the-sale-of-his-950-cow-herd/

To be honest I am finding it a little difficult to buy into the farmers solidarity here when the root of the problem was he was trying to get away from farming. I would have thought any farmer would agree that if your hearts not in it you'll make a balls of it eventually.

On the other hand I have huge sympathy for the father:

"We bought the farm back in 1972. My father kept bees. He had a bumper year for honey...So he had a bit of money and he always loved dairy farming. This place (Craden Hill) was available and he put a deposit down.
"It was a leap of faith, but he loved dairy farming and it all really started from there."

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/irelands-fittest-family-farmer-weeps-as-1000cattle-herd-auctioned-to-pay-24m-bank-debt-34622674.html

Ban me from the forum for saying so if you must, but it strikes me that the bank and receivers are not the cause of this farm going wallop.

And this fecking around with sticking it to the banks and frustrating the receivers is not helping anyone, the farmers in question, his other creditors or the rest of us.

its no different to the lads who commit insurance fraud or evade taxes - decent hard working folk ending up paying more as a result.

djmc

paddysdream wrote: »

Rubbish.
If I borrow your tractor and then refuse to give it back until it suits me should all my neighbours help and sympathise with me?
Those Dutch "pricks" were doing their job same as the sheriff ,guards there on duty (pictures in paper) etc etc.
And yes it prob. is coming to a townland near me. What should I do ?Stand in solidarity with someone who has messed about for years,paid no one they could avoid and when they couldn't avoid it,paid as little and late as possible?
Not a hope
.Genuine hard luck cases are very rare and they deserve help but people who borrow millions and then it all goes wrong ?Would people feel the same about all those builders/developers who went under a few years ago?Just cause its farmers that are feeling the cold wind of reality at this time is no reason to lose our reason

Did you listen to your man's side of the story on the radio Kerry podcast I put up at the start of this thread if not it's worth taking a few minutes to hear both sides of the story.
It seems he made a lot of attempts to pay them back and they refused 1.2 million to work with him.

Sam Kade

djmc wrote: »

Did you listen to your man's side of the story on the radio Kerry podcast I put up at the start of this thread if not it's worth taking a few minutes to hear both sides of the story.
It seems he made a lot of attempts to pay them back and they refused 1.2 million to work with him.

Talk is cheap he must have been on every radio station in the country at this stage.