The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

keep going

this wont go down well but in a discussion related to this story today someone made a point that some large dairy farmer s have a "bad attitude" to paying up.i have always heard that from fellas like scanners,contractors,various sales reps.there seems to be almost a feeling that they are entitled to certain lifestyle and your living is less important than theirs.these same lads that will tell you they have no money to pay you have no problem making"prestigeous" investments on farm.i have seen first hand fellas who have cut a tight deal looking for another discount for handing over the money even though it mightnt have been paid on time anyway.the attitude to land lease renegotiations due to milk price crash seems to bear this out

BoatMad

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

I didn't mention Anglo ,we recapitalized our banks AIB BOI Permanent and Nationwide using the NPRF and borrowed money we have and may see a further return if the economy continues to perform as expected .
I definitely agree that our deficit caused by the explosion in the cost of public services ,servants etc was as much a contributor to our economic crisis as the banking crash.

FYI no money was borrowed to recapitalise AIB BOI or PTSB

the trokia arrived because the current exchequer deficit could not be refinanced in a climate where a guarantee had been advanced and lending was difficult to begin with and the ECB would not step in to support sovereign debt by QE ( which it then did several years later)

The crisis was a direct result of the Euro and the restrictions imposed by the Germans in the ECB. Fiat currencies should never run out of money

BoatMad

keep going wrote: »

this wont go down well but in a discussion related to this story today someone made a point that some large dairy farmer s have a "bad attitude" to paying up.i have always heard that from fellas like scanners,contractors,various sales reps.there seems to be almost a feeling that they are entitled to certain lifestyle and your living is less important than theirs.these same lads that will tell you they have no money to pay you have no problem making"prestigeous" investments on farm.i have seen first hand fellas who have cut a tight deal looking for another discount for handing over the money even though it mightnt have been paid on time anyway.

as a grouping ,when I supplied systems , I classed good to bad payers as follows

International Pharma
International IT
Financial sector
Irish IT business
Food processors
Irish large - medium business
Irish small business
self employed
farmers

johnnyskeleton

freedominacup wrote: »

I thought you'd need a lot more than two to make that stunt stick at an auction. Well done to the men who did it. Receivers ad sheriffs should be frustrated at every turn by the farming community. They picked the case they thought was least sympathetic to push first. Those Dutch pricks are going to have to wait a bit longer before they do their next bit of blackguarding. If this isn't nipped in the bid it'll be coming soon to a townsland near you and all that person will have done wrong is not to be in a strong enough position to refinance because some bank wants to bail.

Is that not a self fulfilling prophecy? Banks seeing this carry on will be less inclined to refinance large debts for farmers?

Also, what does their nationality have to do with it?

keep going

BoatMad wrote: »

as a grouping ,when I supplied systems , I classed good to bad payers as follows

International Pharma
International IT
Financial sector
Irish IT business
Food processors
Irish large - medium business
Irish small business
self employed
farmers

with respect i would say smaller farmers are ok payers ,its the bigger ones seem to be the problem or at least farmers who were always big

OttoPilot

You have to laugh at the amount of people on here complaining about banks not being lenient enough to allow lads to trade out of trouble.

They did too much of that in the property crash and would be wise to learn their lesson. What if the price of milk stays low or collapses even more? Then the default rate for many agricultural loans will skyrocket causing huge losses for the bank, which may require more taxpayer money :pac:

For every one farmer in trouble that the banks know about, there's probably two more they aren't prepared for. Defaults aren't uncorrelated.

BoatMad

keep going wrote: »

with respect i would say smaller farmers are ok payers ,its the bigger ones seem to be the problem or at least farmers who were always big

well small farmers could never afforded the systems i sold, so I didnt have any experience of them

Base price

paddysdream wrote: »

If you think banks were more inclined to write down/give leeway in previous times then God bless your innocence.
They always seek to maximise their return(like any business)and have done so for ever.Recent events have not changed their basic principles.
Of course they will deal but only if they feel that the underlying business is viable (from the point of view of extracting as much as possible.No point in pouring water into a holed bucket.

I will now consider myself a born again virgin :rolleyes:

BoatMad

OttoPilot wrote: »

You have to laugh at the amount of people on here complaining about banks not being lenient enough to allow lads to trade out of trouble.

They did too much of that in the property crash and would be wise to learn their lesson. What if the price of milk stays low or collapses even more? Then the default rate for many agricultural loans will skyrocket causing huge losses for the bank, which may require more taxpayer money :pac:

For every one farmer in trouble that the banks know about, there's probably two more they aren't prepared for. Defaults aren't uncorrelated.

yes the problem is , this two sided aspect that many people believe somehow a farm isn't a business and that its personal , yet every business is personal and every business supports families and businesses go to the wall every day

Farms and farmers should be no different, borrow too much and fail, loose your land and business, just like everyone else

Base price

BoatMad wrote: »

as a grouping ,when I supplied systems , I classed good to bad payers as follows

International Pharma
International IT
Financial sector
Irish IT business
Food processors
Irish large - medium business
Irish small business
self employed
farmers

Out of interest what "systems" did you supply?

BoatMad

Base price wrote: »

Out of interest what "systems" did you supply?

animal tracking , feed management software , a pile of different stuff, mainly aimed at larger farmers but moat went into the agri business sector . the difficulty in getting paid made us leave the argh sector in general after a few years ( this was a while ago )

Dawggone

BoatMad wrote: »

animal tracking , feed management software , a pile of different stuff, mainly aimed at larger farmers but moat went into the agri business sector . the difficulty in getting paid made us leave the argh sector in general after a few years ( this was a while ago )

.
ROFLMAO.

Base price

BoatMad wrote: »

yes the problem is , this two sided aspect that many people believe somehow a farm isn't a business and that its personal , yet every business is personal and every business supports families and businesses go to the wall every day

Farms and farmers should be no different, borrow too much and fail, loose your land and business, just like everyone else

The majority of farmers are not true business's in real terms. They are sole traders and don't have the security of "limited liability".

BoatMad

Base price wrote: »

The majority of farmers are not true business's in real terms. They are sole traders and don't have the security of "limited liability".

the self employed every day too and have to deal with that

sole traders are no different to any business, the issues of limited liability are not a factor in a business deciding to fail, in fact as is often the case, the hold the bank has over the main directors of small and medium business,m means their lives are often ruined by their limited liability business failure

Base price

BoatMad wrote: »

animal tracking , feed management software , a pile of different stuff, mainly aimed at larger farmers but moat went into the agri business sector . the difficulty in getting paid made us leave the argh sector in general after a few years ( this was a while ago )

Correct me if I'm wrong but you vectored predisposed payments on what statistics that the internet provided you with?

OttoPilot

Base price wrote: »

The majority of farmers are not true business's in real terms. They are sole traders and don't have the security of "limited liability".

Yeah no limited liability, so you would think they would co-operate with banks and sell their assets to save themselves

BoatMad

Base price wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but you vectored predisposed payments on what statistics that the internet provided you with?

sorry you've lost me, I gave you the list of the easiest payers in my experience over 20 years of selling solutions

BoatMad

OttoPilot wrote: »

Yeah no limited liability, so you would think they would co-operate with banks and sell their assets to save themselves

because of course the land must be saved at all costs, including screwing the bank. The banks of course given their legal right. tends to win in the end

Base price

BoatMad wrote: »

as a grouping ,when I supplied systems , I classed good to bad payers as follows

International Pharma
International IT
Financial sector
Irish IT business
Food processors
Irish large - medium business
Irish small business
self employed
farmers

As above.

hometruths

BoatMad wrote: »

no one but no one was defaulting willingly on a primary residence mortgage

Not according to AIB:
Around 20pc of mortgage arrears cases are situations where people are not paying a mortgage when there is enough income to meet monthly repayments, Mr Duffy said.
Most of these were buy-to-let mortgage holders, with smaller numbers of homeowners missing payments....
...Strategic defaulting was "normal human behaviour" when there was no credible risk of losing your house, AIB's boss admitted.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/property-mortgages/aib-crackdown-on-strategic-defaulters-29466902.html


Ulster Bank think it's happening too:
Mr. Jim Brown: While I think strategic default has happened, I do not think I can quantify it. What we do know is that 35% of our customers who are in arrears in their mortgage are not engaging with us and are not paying anything towards the cost of living in their home.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/Debates%20Authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/committeetakes/FIJ2013090400039

And every other bank thinks it's happening too.

I don't know the full story in this case but when I hear of a fellow who is not able to make his full repayments, but is able to offer to pay 1.2 million as a settlement, and then the grandfather has the funds to buy the assets for the grandson, I think maybe there's a chance that this approach was a strategic move.

Not against the tactic per se if you've got the balls for it but if it blows up in your face you got to accept the consequences.

And for all those with the talk of let's send a message to the b@stard banks we will not take this lying down or else they'll be after every feckers assets has it not occurred to you that the bank are sending an equally strong message with their actions?

I.e the economics of this one case may not stack up but if we don't come down hard on him every fecker will default on their loans.

Never ceases to amaze me how the lads who go on radio and tv to play the poor mouth and rope in the land league to spout nonsense think they're somehow going to get a deal.

OttoPilot

I know two people close to me who worked in a bank through the recession.

On one hand I heard about people claiming they couldn't pay, even though the bank could see all their income and expenditure :pac: apparently a sky subscription was more important than the family home.

On the other hand many people were sending back keys in the post to the bank in the hope the debt would go away... sad really. One family here clearly needed help but how can you separate the two situations into who can and can't pay. There would be outrage if banks told people how to spend their money.

BoatMad

OttoPilot wrote: »

I know two people close to me who worked in a bank through the recession.

On one hand I heard about people claiming they couldn't pay, even though the bank could see all their income and expenditure :pac: apparently a sky subscription was more important than the family home.

On the other hand many people were sending back keys in the post to the bank in the hope the debt would go away... sad really. One family here clearly needed help but how can you separate the two situations into who can and can't pay. There would be outrage if banks told people how to spend their money.

I think we are missing the point , there is clear evidence that the vast majority of mortgage holders paid their mortgages, actual terminal defaults are reasonably low.

a certain percentage of non payers, stick their head in the stand and refused or couldnt handle getting involved with the bank to resolve their situation , The banks never made this easy. its a very difficult step to take.


people often prioritise short term debt over long term debt as the misleading perception is that mortgage debt would take time to crystallise and paying down shorter debt was advantageous. it was a mistake as generally lenders want all other lenders to participate in the haircut.

I think however we can safely say that the majority of people genuinely want to repay debt.

The issue is where a business ( sole trader or not) get into such difficulty that the position is hopeless.

in that case the solution open to the Kingdoms is bankruptcy and a new life outside of farming after the disposal of their assets by the court.

I presume the sale of the herd, only goes a small way to meeting the terms of the judgement against them, That means the land is next

Base price

OttoPilot wrote: »

Yeah no limited liability, so you would think they would co-operate with banks and sell their assets to save themselves

Are you farming? I doubt it by the above comment. Why the **** would I sell my asset to assuage my bank. TBH and IMO you haven't a ****ing clue.

BoatMad

Base price wrote: »

Are you farming? I doubt it by the above comment. Why the **** would I sell my asset to assuage my bank. TBH and IMO you haven't a ****ing clue.

why ,because they have a judgement against you and the next step is they will make you bankrupt and the courts will seize all your assets

whereas engaging with the lender might , juts might provide you with a way out

I love the term " assuage ", you d think it was a lovers quarrel

OttoPilot

Base price wrote: »

Are you farming? I doubt it by the above comment. Why the **** would I sell my asset to assuage my bank. TBH and IMO you haven't a ****ing clue.

So you have a personally guaranteed loan which you can't pay back and you're willing to let the bank come after your personal assets?

coolshannagh28

BoatMad wrote: »

FYI no money was borrowed to recapitalise AIB BOI or PTSB

Under the Troika bailout programme 10 billion was introduced into the Irish banks with a further contingency of 25 billion

BoatMad

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Under the Troika bailout programme 10 billion was introduced into the Irish banks with a further contingency of 25 billion

I direct you to the eminent My Whelans analysis

http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=471

The capitalisation of the irish banks was agreed with the Troika, which is not the same as saying the Trokia supplied the money which they didnt

Base price

BoatMad wrote: »

why ,because they have a judgement against you and the next step is they will make you bankrupt and the courts will seize all your assets

whereas engaging with the lender might , juts might provide you with a way out

I love the term " assuage ", you d think it was a lovers quarrel

No judgement against me
TBH maybe you would be better off providing information on the GLAS or another Boards wildlife thread. Your expertises appear to specialise in wildlife/animal tracking and feed software.
TBH I don't know what feed "software" is but assume it's a cooked "soft" grain (wheat, barley, rice ??) to aid lower gut digestion and therefore classified as feed "software"

BoatMad

Base price wrote: »

No judgement against me
TBH maybe you would be better off providing information on the GLAS or another Boards wildlife thread. Your expertises appear to specialise in wildlife/animal tracking and feed software.
TBH I don't know what feed "software" is but assume it's a cooked "soft" grain (wheat, barley, rice ??) to aid lower gut digestion and therefore classified as feed "software"

You can engage in slagging me off all you like, it sdoesnt do your arguments any good at all.

the fact is the point being advanced is that it would be stupid not to dispose of any asset outside of say the family home in order to discharge a judgement against you. It would be silly to attempt to hold on to land, and then to suffer the actions of an enforced bankruptcy


oh , I suspect Ive be on and worked a hell of lot more farms then you have , keyboard warrior. I did not explicitly lay out what I provided to large farms and the agri sector as I've no wish to identify myself to the likes of you , thanks

play the ball not the man - thanks

coolshannagh28

BoatMad wrote: »

I direct you to the eminent My Whelans analysis

http://karlwhelan.com/blog/?p=471

The capitalisation of the irish banks was agreed with the Troika, which is not the same as saying the Trokia supplied the money which they didnt

11.4 bn from borrowings according to Karl Whelans analysis.

http://trueeconomics.blogspot.ie/2011/09/06092011-recapitalization-of-irish.html