The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

boggerman1

Looks like the banks aren't the only ones owed by this shower.according to the farming indo there is another 800,000€ owed to co-ops and other people who did work for them.easy be a big ****e when u pay no one


Mod:

Your use of the derogatory term 'shower' has just shot yourself in the foot and diverted attention away from the substance of your post.

It's simply not tolerable in this thread where it was stated from the outset that moderation would be strict.

BoatMad

boggerman1 wrote: »

Looks like the banks aren't the only ones owed by this <snip>.according to the farming indo there is another 800,000€ owed to co-ops and other people who did work for them.easy be a big ****e when u pay no one

like most business failures , the easiest creditors to default on are always screwed anyway. I suspect this problem has been going on for some time and all we are seeing is the very end messy bit

satguy

BoatMad wrote: »

why what should the bank have done ?

The bank should have found some way to work with the farm owners, not work against them..

And is was up to the sheriff reduce the money owed, not to be adding on huge fees, and all in all to do a more professional job, then the shambles we see now..

If your solicitor or architect did such a shambles of a job for you, they would loose their licence..

patsy_mccabe

handlemaster wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/business/farming/damning-animal-welfare-report-on-farm-of-irelands-fittest-family-at-centre-of-bank-debts-auction-34639403.html


All not so rosy in the garden

From that Indo article;
'...there were no working cattle crush on the farm'
1,000 prize winning pedigree cows and no crush. Serious bullsh1tting going on. I have 3 crushes and only a few suckler cows.

BoatMad

The bank should have found some way to work with the farm owners, not work against them..

Maybe they did and then the road ran out. It may actually be for the best
we dont what went on over the last 12 months , but its safe to assume, this is close to a hopeless case as the bank have moved to secure the judgement and are unlikely to get anywhere near its full value

often the best solution is a wind up

handlemaster

st1979 wrote: »

Yes its a sad soap opera and seems vindictive by the sheriff. But in fairness its a female sheriff and most of the fairer sex I know can be vindictive and will happily cut their nose off despite their face to prove a point.



Runs for cover!!!

What a stupid comment

handlemaster

satguy wrote: »

That sheriff is not good at her job,, went about this all wrong, as did the bank..

The sheriff and the bank officials should be sacked,, maybe some charges brought against the sheriff, or some big fine..

How long should the bank wait to get paid ... in your opinion

handlemaster

satguy wrote: »

The bank should have found some way to work with the farm owners, not work against them..

And is was up to the sheriff reduce the money owed, not to be adding on huge fees, and all in all to do a more professional job, then the shambles we see now..

If your solicitor or architect did such a shambles of a job for you, they would loose their licence..

Do you not this the bank is interested in getting the most back of the money they lent ? Im sure this was their best option .

case885

handlemaster wrote:

Do you not this the bank is interested in getting the most back of the money they lent ? Im sure this was their best option .

The sale of the animals doesn't even cover the 1 million in costs run up since December never mind paying off the debt that was outstanding.
I think they'll find it hard to sell the land also as a lot of buyers would be put off because of the circumstances.

handlemaster

case885 wrote: »

The sale of the animals doesn't even cover the 1 million in costs run up since December never mind paying off the debt that was outstanding.
I think they'll find it hard to sell the land also as a lot of buyers would be put off because of the circumstances.

Its a case of getting somthing back.

Buford T. Justice XIX

keep going wrote: »

i was thinking a few days ago what was the situation like in new zealand as regards banks and farmers and i was wondering what you would say about the crack over there

Reading a few reports in the last few days and it seems dairy land is NZ housing bubble. There is 10s of billions loaned to buy and setup dairy farms and the banks can cope if milk price is down for another season.

But if a rise doesn't happen next year, they are going to have to start calling in a large number of loans and the land they are secured on. They are potentially looking at huge holes appearing in banks balance sheets if there is no foreign demand for that land as it doesn't look like many farmers will be in a position to borrow to buy the land going up for sale. It could look very similar to 2009 did here:(

Red Kev

With near 1,000 head of cattle, worth various amounts and 170 acres of some of the best land in the country, the farmer would have been better off selling 7-800 of the herd, bit by bit over 6-8 months and 70-100 acres of land along with it. Pay off as much as you can, keep some cash in reserve and start again where they were in 2004 (which isn't that long ago). Yes, it would be a tough decision, but they could have put the whole thing down to experience and tried to get back into business again.

We have our own farm, the first 33 acres are in the family since 1890, various bits were added on since the 1940's, bringing it up to 74 acres in the 1980's. Very mixed land.

At some stage in the late 1980's we ran into financial trouble,( house build, high mortgage repayments, little employment outside the farm etc. etc). The solution was to sell 38 acres of it and about half of the stock, we also got out of sheep farming entirely.

A hard decision, but it was for the better as we would have lost most, if not all of it. The rest was farmed, another 12 acres were brought around 1998 and it's all leased now. We haven't owed a cent on the farm since 1988.

We were heavily critiscised for selling "the family land" at the time, but we paid off all those who we owed money to, unlike a lot of people in the parish. Those who we paid off never forgot what we did and people still mention my parents' tough, but fair decision to sell today.

I agree that there's an emotional attachment to land, but there's an emotional attachment to houses and businesses in urban areas as well. When they go tits up, they're expected to pay their bills, sell all and move on; there seems to be a different rule for farmers, that's something I don't get.

Sorry, to say it, but a lot of the problems there are of the family's own doing, they made wrong decisions (as we all do) but you need to put your hands up when it all goes wrong and accept that's that.

There was a case near us a few years ago where a farm was supposed to be auctioned, the auction was stopped due to intimidation and threats by local farmers, who were cajoled into demonstrating against the sale as "ye boys will be next". The land parcel of 100 acres should have fetched near €900,000, it's still in the farmers hands today. He has, in total around 220 acres that we are aware of, he inherited 60 off his father in 2000, the rest he got on bank loans, so it's hardly been in the family for generations.

Thing is, he owes at least €500,000 to local businesses, not one of who got a cent off him. There's at least 4 lads I know who he owes from €15,000-45,000 to, who are working in the UK and Australia to pay mortgages while that fella lives a decent life here and doesn't attempt to pay back a cent, always playing the poor mouth.

That's hardly fair either, is it?

case885

handlemaster wrote:

Its a case of getting somthing back.

There were other ways of doing this without taking the nuclear option. IMO the farm wasn't running as efficiently as it could have and should certainly have been able to repay more than 100,000 over 8 years, maybe if they got a farm manager in to work alongside Kingston for a year or two and get things back on track there might have been a better ending.
I think this situation definitely highlights the extreme importance of prudence when it's comes to expansion, it was too rushed in this case.

greysides

Mod: There has been two red cards issued for inappropriate posting. That should be sufficient to remind everyone that this thread is being more strictly moderated than the norm due to sensitivities.

In both cases, it's not what was said in meaning, whether you agree with it or not, but how it was said/approached.

In both cases it could have been attempted better.

Here endeth the lesson.

Fuxake

Look I don't know whether Peter Kingston deserves any sympathy or not. I think that the whole episode certainly points to the difficulties of expansion in a country where Luas drivers think they're worth 50k compared with countries where there are a lot of people chasing limited employment opportunities.

One thing that annoys me is the bull**** published which seems to be a concerted effort by the sheriff to blacken the names of the Kingston family. For instance "cows were condition score 2." What condition score would you expect extreme, sharp high yielding Holsteins to be at in the month of December after maybe milking 10,000 litres? "There was no crush"- well how did they test the cows for TB? "There was no feed." Well maybe so, but maybe when you run out of money and the bank gives you no more what do you do? Of course, you sell stock but presumably this was blocked by the sheriff/ bank?

I heard lots of rumours about all sorts which suggest that the Kingstons have a cunning plan to get around the sheriff but I ain't publishing them. Fact is that most businesses which are family owned try all sorts when faced with the desperate clusterfook of a receivership and if I ever ended up there I might do the same.

But I think that the attempts to paint them as reckless, cruel and useless farmers is bang out of order. Actually it stinks of the sheriff trying to deflect from the fact that she spent a fortune paying people who fooked up looking after calves etc and are now trying to blame it on lack of vaccines, some of which would have been due when sheriff came in. Again, if you can't get any more money.... Lameness? Is lameness in Holsteins a revelation to the vet? Sheriff and her expensive helpers shudda diagnosed these problems and dealt with them. Welcome to the reality of farming.

whelan2

Why did they have to hire farm workers/managers from Holland?

rangler1

Fuxake wrote: »

Look I don't know whether Peter Kingston deserves any sympathy or not. I think that the whole episode certainly points to the difficulties of expansion in a country where Luas drivers think they're worth 50k compared with countries where there are a lot of people chasing limited employment opportunities.

One thing that annoys me is the bull**** published which seems to be a concerted effort by the sheriff to blacken the names of the Kingston family. For instance "cows were condition score 2." What condition score would you expect extreme, sharp high yielding Holsteins to be at in the month of December after maybe milking 10,000 litres? "There was no crush"- well how did they test the cows for TB? "There was no feed." Well maybe so, but maybe when you run out of money and the bank gives you no more what do you do? Of course, you sell stock but presumably this was blocked by the sheriff/ bank?

I heard lots of rumours about all sorts which suggest that the Kingstons have a cunning plan to get around the sheriff but I ain't publishing them. Fact is that most businesses which are family owned try all sorts when faced with the desperate clusterfook of a receivership and if I ever ended up there I might do the same.

But I think that the attempts to paint them as reckless, cruel and useless farmers is bang out of order. Actually it stinks of the sheriff trying to deflect from the fact that she spent a fortune paying people who fooked up looking after calves etc and are now trying to blame it on lack of vaccines, some of which would have been due when sheriff came in. Again, if you can't get any more money.... Lameness? Is lameness in Holsteins a revelation to the vet? Sheriff and her expensive helpers shudda diagnosed these problems


and dealt with them. Welcome to the reality of farming.

I think the poor divils that they owe 800000 to are best entitled and qualified to judge them.

pedigree 6

Fuxake wrote: »

Look I don't know whether Peter Kingston deserves any sympathy or not. I think that the whole episode certainly points to the difficulties of expansion in a country where Luas drivers think they're worth 50k compared with countries where there are a lot of people chasing limited employment opportunities.

One thing that annoys me is the bull**** published which seems to be a concerted effort by the sheriff to blacken the names of the Kingston family. For instance "cows were condition score 2." What condition score would you expect extreme, sharp high yielding Holsteins to be at in the month of December after maybe milking 10,000 litres? "There was no crush"- well how did they test the cows for TB? "There was no feed." Well maybe so, but maybe when you run out of money and the bank gives you no more what do you do? Of course, you sell stock but presumably this was blocked by the sheriff/ bank?

I heard lots of rumours about all sorts which suggest that the Kingstons have a cunning plan to get around the sheriff but I ain't publishing them. Fact is that most businesses which are family owned try all sorts when faced with the desperate clusterfook of a receivership and if I ever ended up there I might do the same.

But I think that the attempts to paint them as reckless, cruel and useless farmers is bang out of order. Actually it stinks of the sheriff trying to deflect from the fact that she spent a fortune paying people who fooked up looking after calves etc and are now trying to blame it on lack of vaccines, some of which would have been due when sheriff came in. Again, if you can't get any more money.... Lameness? Is lameness in Holsteins a revelation to the vet? Sheriff and her expensive helpers shudda diagnosed these problems and dealt with them. Welcome to the reality of farming.

That's a very good post and you're hitting everything there.
It's a pity this is all being played out in public.:(

Water John

Sheriff must have her eye on further jobs, with the PR spin being put out.
Dutch lads have indicated another three in Cork. If she doesn't get this one cleanly over the line, it would make the next round very difficult.
BTW names are known. just not in the public domain.
And no point in idle speculation, only they are coming. Sadly, its the local support structure, merchants, contractors etc that are left without a cent.
Odd having people here having sympathy for banks.

There is also a whole section of indebted farms being effectively run by Coops in certain parts.

Buford T. Justice XIX

whelan2 wrote: »

Why did they have to hire farm workers/managers from Holland?

I assume very few Irish managers would want working on a repossessed farm on their CV, especially as a large number of herds where they would be looking for work on would also be Friesian breeders and could have close connections with the Kingstons.

pedigree 6

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

From that Indo article;
'...there were no working cattle crush on the farm'
1,000 prize winning pedigree cows and no crush. Serious bullsh1tting going on. I have 3 crushes and only a few suckler cows.

Headlocking barriers perhaps?

Water John

Except Buford, it didn't put off the auctioneer.

st1979

handlemaster wrote:

What a stupid comment

Not as stupid as a sheriff who says she has spent between 1 and 1.5 million to reclaim maybe 600k.

Sam Kade

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I assume very few Irish managers would want working on a repossessed farm on their CV, especially as a large number of herds where they would be looking for work on would also be Friesian breeders and could have close connections with the Kingstons.

The bank is Dutch and they did say the workers were experienced in taking over the running of repossessed farms.

fepper

Sam Kade wrote: »

The media don't know who they are yet, they'll swoop down like vultures when they find out, no doubt.

Isn't the independent newspaper THE MEDIA

Sam Kade

fepper wrote: »

Isn't the independent newspaper THE MEDIA

Did I say they weren't?

satguy

st1979 wrote: »

Not as stupid as a sheriff who says she has spent between 1 and 1.5 million to reclaim maybe 600k.

The Garda Siochana fraud squad should be asking to see her books.. It does not look right to me..

OttoPilot

It is 100% the family's own fault this is being played out in public. As a previous poster said, they could have sold stock and land and downsized.

They chose to take out the loan to expand, they chose not to downsize, they chose not to pay the bank or suppliers, as alleged.

There is no option of letting them trade out of trouble because they are in a distressed market. Other, better managed farms may soon default on debt because of market conditions and then what will people be saying? Let everyone trade out of trouble, like developers in 2007? :pac:

Water John

Well Otto, that's is not as daft as you might think.
There is a significant body of economists that believe the right course of action was for ECB to print money at the time. May be we would have been saved exporting a generation and ten years stagnation.
There is more than one solution.

farmerjj

This thread is just sad to read, normally the f&f section is full of interesting post and people passing on knowledge and experience, but this thread is full of pettiness, at this stage its only repeating the same sh**e why is it still running.