The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

paddysdream

20silkcut wrote: »

Massive difference between a farmer and a luas worker. Don't know how anyone could side with these vulture funds no matter how well off or over ambitious the debtor is perceived .
These guys need to be driven out of this country now. They are the financial Black and Tans. It is great to see farmers collaborating together cohesively. It needs to be done on a much greater scale to halt the incessant decline of rural Ireland. But to see the insiders get a bloody nose is a good days work.

What are the differences?
Not siding with the "vulture" fund but if you overreach then be prepared to take the consequences if you fail.
A lot of this is similar to the water charges hysteria.Somebody else is wrong,creaming it off ,fooling the poor sods,has the inside track etc etc.
Human nature to look for someone or something else to blame when you f@ck up.Was always a great believer in holding your hand up,admitting you may have been wrong and getting on with it.

paddysdream

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I will have to disagree with you there, freedom.

I remember going to 5 or 6 land sales with my father when land purchased had to be sold to avoid the whole business going to the wall. It was mostly land bought in Limerick by Kerry farmers not far from the county bounds. It may have been different in Waterford, though.

However, very few home farms were sold, it was normally the purchased land sold with a large chunk of the loan left being written off and a much smaller or no loan repayments left to work out the loan.

Lots of land sold around here in late 70's early 80's by farmers who over borrowed to expand after we entered the EU.
Actually as I sit here eating the dinner and typing this can see 2 farmers who sold land to bail themselves out.
Out of all the places that I am aware of that had problems only 1 managed to hold onto all their land and lets just say that the stress etc of those years told on them in latter times.
One consequence of the failure of the celtic tiger is that the handy option for many of shifting a site or 2 at 100k plus each to fill a gap has been lost.It sponsored many a farmer over the last 10 years but to me smacked of fooling yourself to imagine that every time you fell into trouble then a site sale or 2 would keep the ship afloat

paddysdream

djmc wrote: »

Did you listen to your man's side of the story on the radio Kerry podcast I put up at the start of this thread if not it's worth taking a few minutes to hear both sides of the story.
It seems he made a lot of attempts to pay them back and they refused 1.2 million to work with him.

Hears him on radio 1 during the week and drew my own conclusions.
But to be fair have no interest in or clue about this one particular farmer.Its in general terms that I believe that if you borrow its in the full knowledge and understanding that it actually has to be paid back (with interest)If people have problems with terms and conditions etc then the option is there to not borrow.

Nobody has a gun held to their head to borrow money and in any reasonable persons estimation someone who is prepared to borrow 7 figure sums for business expansion should really know what they are getting into and the consequences of what could or might go wrong.Businesses fail every day all around this country and why should farmers be held to any different standard just because they have an irrational emotional attachment to land(Admit I would sell anything myself bar the land!!!!!!!!!)
Should we stand in solidarity with those developers who overreached 10 years ago or those who lost all in the dot com bubble before that or even those who lost money on eircom shares ?

pedigree 6

Whatever about the farmers case.
Is this the end of banks lending money using livestock as security?
Can't see many banks wanting to go through this again.
Easier to sell land and always be more sure of getting money back.


Just wondering about the planned 1000 cow farm in Tipperary looking for investors. Although the coop there was putting money into it as well so maybe paying a better price and maybe investors could use land there as security.
Also why all talk about 1000 cow herds. Why not 919 or 1021 cow herds?

Also every public farm walk I was at in the last few years the banks always had a stand there.

And one more will banks only lend now on past performance and not some makey uppy future herd output or grass grown figures or again back on only lending what they can get back by selling current holding.

blue5000

20silkcut wrote: »

Massive difference between a farmer and a luas worker. Don't know how anyone could side with these vulture funds no matter how well off or over ambitious the debtor is perceived .
These guys need to be driven out of this country now. They are the financial Black and Tans. It is great to see farmers collaborating together cohesively. It needs to be done on a much greater scale to halt the incessant decline of rural Ireland. But to see the insiders get a bloody nose is a good days work.

I think 20 you've started to hit the nail on the head, part of the problem here is the unequal distribution of wealth. The rich (bankers, vulture funds LGs DO'Bs of this world) are getting richer all the time at our (the little ppl, peasants/serfs/labourers) expense.

greysides

This thread is being split off from Bass Reeve's 'Banks borrowing money Foreclosure, and all that lark' which can be found here.

This is to try to preserve the value of the investment made by Bass and his financial advisers in that thread in case the sheriff intervenes here too.

There are two very different schools of thought on this issue so agree to disagree, or argue the point and not the poster.

Do not post hastily in response to something that inflames you. Give yourself time to compose a reasoned response!

Please continue to keep in mind that there is a real family, not a faceless corporation, at the core of this discussion.

Try to stick to what is in the public domain and avoid too much speculation. None of us are party to all the details!

Moderation here will be strict.

djmc

paddysdream wrote: »

Hears him on radio 1 during the week and drew my own conclusions.
But to be fair have no interest in or clue about this one particular farmer.Its in general terms that I believe that if you borrow its in the full knowledge and understanding that it actually has to be paid back (with interest)If people have problems with terms and conditions etc then the option is there to not borrow.

Nobody has a gun held to their head to borrow money and in any reasonable persons estimation someone who is prepared to borrow 7 figure sums for business expansion should really know what they are getting into and the consequences of what could or might go wrong.Businesses fail every day all around this country and why should farmers be held to any different standard just because they have an irrational emotional attachment to land(Admit I would sell anything myself bar the land!!!!!!!!!)
Should we stand in solidarity with those developers who overreached 10 years ago or those who lost all in the dot com bubble before that or even those who lost money on eircom shares ?

What I understand from his side of the story
The bank left him short 150k after he had completed the work which was promised but then renaged on due to the banking collapse.
The were given security over the land but not the cattle or the house or machinery.
He said he has no problem with the land as that's what he offered but they are coming after everything.
He said he was making payments and offered 1.2 million to work with him and give him more time but they refused.
I believe everyone that borrows money should repay it and be given every chance to repay it.
I also believe that if someone is set up to fail or someone is profiteering from others misfortune they should be investigated and exposed.

Buford T. Justice XIX

blue5000 wrote: »

I think 20 you've started to hit the nail on the head, part of the problem here is the unequal distribution of wealth. The rich (bankers, vulture funds LGs DO'Bs of this world) are getting richer all the time at our (the little ppl, peasants/serfs/labourers) expense.

Careful there, Blue.

Many out there would consider farmers to be part of the rich(even though you can't eat land).:p

Sam Kade

djmc wrote: »

What I understand from his side of the story
The bank left him short 150k after he had completed the work which was promised but then renaged on due to the banking collapse.
The were given security over the land but not the cattle or the house or machinery.
He said he has no problem with the land as that's what he offered but they are coming after everything.
He said he was making payments and offered 1.2 million to work with him and give him more time but they refused.
I believe everyone that borrows money should repay it and be given every chance to repay it.
I also believe that if someone is set up to fail or someone is profiteering from others misfortune they should be investigated and exposed.

He said that he was left short 250k.

hometruths

djmc wrote: »

He said he was making payments and offered 1.2 million to work with him and give him more time but they refused.
I believe everyone that borrows money should repay it and be given every chance to repay it.

What I don't understand is if he was making payments why did the bank call in the debt?

Surely banks aren't repo'ing on performing loans?

paddysdream

schmittel wrote: »

What I don't understand is if he was making payments why did the bank call in the debt?

Surely banks aren't repo'ing on performing loans?

You would wonder alright.Never seen the bank here take any interest in me or my finances once the direct debit clears each time a loan repayment is due.

flutered

farmerjj wrote: »

Don't know why people are so happy will this all just be more expense for the banks, and just mean more of a chance they will go after the family home.

who will they get to buy it

Farmer Ed

Seeing as we are doing a postmortem on what went wrong with an individual family's business. Is it ok if we we take a look at some other well known families in farming circles who have ran in to financial difficulty? I can think of one in particular who went on to be leader of IFA. Indeed there is some mention of someone currently seeking high office in IFA who may not be in a very healthy state financially. Where do we stop? I read somewhere that 5 farmers have lost their farms to the banks in recent times. Sadly some of these farmers have taken their own lives.
Just something to think about before we cast judgment.

cute geoge

I just want to add lads remember most pedigree breeders depend on heifer and bull sales to make profit . It is said they are lucky to break even on milk sales most years ,but can command top dollar for any stock .
Imo the outbrake of t.b. in the herd was the start of the demise ,it is all very well lads coming on here saying they have no trouble with the banks but its when there is an impediment to repaying ,that is when the banks start behaving disgracefully.

Farmer Ed

cute geoge wrote: »

I just want to add lads remember most pedigree breeders depend on heifer and bull sales to make profit . It is said they are lucky to break even on milk sales most years ,but can command top dollar for any stock .
Imo the outbrake of t.b. in the herd was the start of the demise ,it is all very well lads coming on here saying they have no trouble with the banks but its when there is an impediment to repaying ,that is when the banks start behaving disgracefully.

plus 1 .Judge no one because, there goes me but for the grace of God

Bass Reeves

20silkcut wrote: »

Massive difference between a farmer and a luas worker. Don't know how anyone could side with these vulture funds no matter how well off or over ambitious the debtor is perceived .
These guys need to be driven out of this country now. They are the financial Black and Tans. It is great to see farmers collaborating together cohesively. It needs to be done on a much greater scale to halt the incessant decline of rural Ireland. But to see the insiders get a bloody nose is a good days work.

Will you tell me the difference between a farmer and a LUAS worker. The question is why do banks sell to vulture funds is it because they do not want the hassle that RABO/ACC bank are getting here. I am not sure what the failure of a big farm has to do with the decline of rural Ireland

freedominacup wrote: »

Up to now banks have had to pull easy when chasing "bad" loans to farmers this never stopped them lending to farmers so far. Anyone who expanded rapidly in the seventies has a story about banks telling them to sell land or whatever was the current weeks brainwave when interest rates went into the high teens and beyond in the early eighties. Very few sales ensued and very few loans didn't work themselves out. Loans secured on land have to be paid because land is the tools of your trade. You can't sell it and do a runner without deeds and they get to use the huge ltv disparity to cover off all sorts of other dodgy creditlines. These are the reasons why banks acting the maggot has to be resisted. If that means the odd unworthy case gets support so be it.

This is a two sided street farmers give security for to get a reduction in Interest rates. secure loans are often 2-5% cheaper than unsecured that is the reality. Banks if it is viable pursue unsecured lending.

Brown Podzol wrote: »

ACC loan management are no better or no worse than a vulture fund at this stage. Vulture funds are buying farm loans for between 15% and 50% I'm told. If these loans were offered to farmers at these rates I'm sure most if not all could refinance and other creditors would stand a chance of being paid as farmers could then trade out of their difficulties. The farmer in question has said in interviews that he had agreed to buy the loan at 50% discount more than once but the bank refused to proceed. The bank will be lucky to realise 50% at this stage and creditors have very little chance of getting their money.
The thing is that the farm loans are being packaged with other rubbish loans with very little chance of recovering anything. Distressed farm loans with very good LTV are being used to sell the rubbish loans. Now if the vulture funds have to recalculate what they pay for farm loans, in view of what has happened in Cork, it may force the banks to negotiate with farmers.

Vulture Funds as you call them buy bungles of loans often in the hundreds. Some that are preforming they do not touch. Some they do deals with to maximize there returns. They may buy 200 loans at a 50% discount. To make money for a loan that they only recover 40% of the value they need to recover 60%+ from another loan. The real problem is that banks will now not go through the hassle of loan recovery for what is often a 20% better recover rate rather than sell to a loan recovery fund because of the bad publicity. At the end of the day this transfers to higher interest rates to us. What good is having security if you cannot recover it.

djmc wrote: »

Did you listen to your man's side of the story on the radio Kerry podcast I put up at the start of this thread if not it's worth taking a few minutes to hear both sides of the story.
It seems he made a lot of attempts to pay them back and they refused 1.2 million to work with him.

I heard the broadcast and yes you get the impression that they were willing to dicount loan by 50% but that nearly 2 years back in general banks will not do deals when they can recover greater than that amount.

djmc wrote: »

What I understand from his side of the story
The bank left him short 150k after he had completed the work which was promised but then renaged on due to the banking collapse.
The were given security over the land but not the cattle or the house or machinery.
He said he has no problem with the land as that's what he offered but they are coming after everything.
He said he was making payments and offered 1.2 million to work with him and give him more time but they refused.
I believe everyone that borrows money should repay it and be given every chance to repay it.
I also believe that if someone is set up to fail or someone is profiteering from others misfortune they should be investigated and exposed.

When you deals with banks and solicitors etc promises are no good you need the paperwork in place. There is no point in bidding on a house or land unless you have a loan offer in place. You also have to remember that AIB restructured his loans in 2007 already. two years down the road did ACC bank find that the figure did bot add up.

cute geoge wrote: »

I just want to add lads remember most pedigree breeders depend on heifer and bull sales to make profit . It is said they are lucky to break even on milk sales most years ,but can command top dollar for any stock .
Imo the outbrake of t.b. in the herd was the start of the demise ,it is all very well lads coming on here saying they have no trouble with the banks but its when there is an impediment to repaying ,that is when the banks start behaving disgracefully.

No matter what way I try to phrase this it sound awful but the reality when you borrow serious amounts of money for a business you need to take into account the worst case senario. You take out life insurance in case you pop your clogs unfortunately you cannot insure for a TB outbreak.

paddysdream

cute geoge wrote: »

I just want to add lads remember most pedigree breeders depend on heifer and bull sales to make profit . It is said they are lucky to break even on milk sales most years ,but can command top dollar for any stock .
Imo the outbrake of t.b. in the herd was the start of the demise ,it is all very well lads coming on here saying they have no trouble with the banks but its when there is an impediment to repaying ,that is when the banks start behaving disgracefully.

Only impediment I ever found to paying back money was not actually having it.
These things do not happen overnight.In most cases bank is not going to pull the plug and endure bad publicity, political and media attention etc etc when another solution is viable.
They would prefer to extract the maximum value from their investment and a fire sale usually will not realise this.

whelan2

paddysdream wrote: »

You would wonder alright.Never seen the bank here take any interest in me or my finances once the direct debit clears each time a loan repayment is due.

Are loan repayments not normally scheduled to come out the same day as milk cheque comes in, therefore the bank get their bit first?

Milked out

whelan2 wrote: »

Are loan repayments not normally scheduled to come out the same day as milk cheque comes in, therefore the bank get their bit first?

Can be any time most are set up for end of the month so milk cheque would be in and a lot would be in the high output months as in 6 repayments in a year from April may on. It's about having the money in the day it's due.

Milked out

I think the issue at hand is basically did the bank move in when there was another course of action available with the client restructuring or whatever. If they did then it's uncalled for however if there was repeated attempts to resolve it and get payments going again and they came to nothing then the bank are going to have to move. I've never heard of interest only periods longer than 2 years and AFAIK the longest you would get from a bank interest only would be 12 months, could be wrong on that now

paddysdream

whelan2 wrote: »

Are loan repayments not normally scheduled to come out the same day as milk cheque comes in, therefore the bank get their bit first?

Oh but to have a milk cheque coming every month!!!
Us poor drystock farmers have no such luxuries and must sell stock etc to have the funds in place.
As regards milk cheques,any contractor worth his salt can tell you which day each month the creamery cheque is out so would imagine a bank would also be working to this schedule!!
No point in trying to collect money only to be told call back next week.

cjpm

Few mentions of vulture funds buying loans for between 15 - 50% of the loan value.

I would be completely shocked if those loans were sold at such a discount considering the bank had rock solid security on 170 acres. Loan was for 2.4 million. Land in Nohaval 10k per acre minimum. That's 1.7 million not including yard sheds etc

They have a cast iron guarantee that they would get at least 1.7 million back.

Someone here mentioned that Mr Kingston offered them 1.2m to write off the debt. There was no way in hell they would accept an offer of 1.2 million if they are guaranteed 1.7 minimum.

kowtow

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Or in this case, it seems, an equal and opposite re-auction.

RightTurnClyde

kowtow wrote: »

Or in this case, it seems, an equal and opposite re-auction.

Ah Jasus kowtow, you can do better than that.

agrostar

cjpm wrote: »

Few mentions of vulture funds buying loans for between 15 - 50% of the loan value.

I would be completely shocked if those loans were sold at such a discount considering the bank had rock solid security on 170 acres. Loan was for 2.4 million. Land in Nohaval 10k per acre minimum. That's 1.7 million not including yard sheds etc

They have a cast iron guarantee that they would get at least 1.7 million back.

Someone here mentioned that Mr Kingston offered them 1.2m to write off the debt. There was no way in hell they would accept an offer of 1.2 million if they are guaranteed 1.7 minimum.

Where was he getting the 1.2m from to payoff the bank. Something doesn't add up here?

Spanish Eyes

At an auction for a house/property, the buyer is committed.

Why is that different for a herd of cattle please?

XR3i

blue5000 wrote: »

I see someone bought a lot of cows and then refused to pay for them

fair play

flutered

paddysdream wrote: »

What are the differences?
Not siding with the "vulture" fund but if you overreach then be prepared to take the consequences if you fail.
A lot of this is similar to the water charges hysteria.Somebody else is wrong,creaming it off ,fooling the poor sods,has the inside track etc etc.
Human nature to look for someone or something else to blame when you f@ck up.Was always a great believer in holding your hand up,admitting you may have been wrong and getting on with it.

a family farm is hard for an outsider to fathom, the blood sweat and tears of many generations are in it, if not in a particular one, the farmer came via another one, how many hours are worked for nothing only the desire to survive, how many family members have slaved back throught the years, before modern machinery has eases the pressure, but at what cost, the cost of machinery and the loss of numbers from the countryside, back through the years many farming familys had only two companions, slavery and penury, when rent and rates had to be paid no matter what, been through that and thankfully survived, but the cost in physical terms alone has been enormous, add the mental strain, was it worth it, the jury is out

Bass Reeves

XR3i wrote: »

fair play

Please explain.

flutered

cjpm wrote: »

Few mentions of vulture funds buying loans for between 15 - 50% of the loan value.

I would be completely shocked if those loans were sold at such a discount considering the bank had rock solid security on 170 acres. Loan was for 2.4 million. Land in Nohaval 10k per acre minimum. That's 1.7 million not including yard sheds etc

They have a cast iron guarantee that they would get at least 1.7 million back.

Someone here mentioned that Mr Kingston offered them 1.2m to write off the debt. There was no way in hell they would accept an offer of 1.2 million if they are guaranteed 1.7 minimum.

1.2m without any grief, i would take it, how are the exes, they will continue to rise, in this type of ball game 1/2m is chicken feed