The Kingston story: Bidders fail to pay up for auctioned cows

Bass Reeves

melissak wrote: »

Maybe country folk are different in Cork. If someone bought a repossessed farm around here I would never miss an opportunity to do them an unneighbourly turn. And I'm fairly peaceful. My grandfather was offered a repossessed field for half nothing thirty years ago and he told them to shove it where the sun don't shine. AFAIK it never sold. Farmers should stick together or any one of them could be next. Grabbers should not be allowed to prosper.

I am not from Cork and do not live there

Brown Podzol

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In Ireland all loans are full recourse in that if the assets you put up will not meet the loan then the bank can recover any shortfall from other assets. If you take out HP or a car and fail to repay if after recovering the car and selling it the HP company can chase you for any balance. They can also chase you for any costs incurred in dealing with the recovery loan and the recovery and sale of the car. That is why it is often best to do a deal with the HP company regarding the recovery of the car.

Just because you give the deeds of a property is not a limit on what the bank can recover from you.

Personal guarantees are in unless specifically written out. I would say in light of what's happened here everyone seeking a loan should inquire as to what is the cost of making the loan non recourse. In other words the security given is the only asset at risk if the loan goes bad. Probably a higher interest rate but maybe not. All things being equal it would definitely influence my decision on going with one bank over another.

melissak

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I am not from Cork and do not live there

I don't care where you live. The farm in question is in cork

melissak

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Personal guarantees are in unless specifically written out. I would say in light of what's happened here everyone seeking a loan should inquire as to what is the cost of making the loan non recourse. In other words the security given is the only asset at risk if the loan goes bad. Probably a higher interest rate but maybe not. All things being equal it would definitely influence my decision on going with one bank over another.

Ir if possible avoid borrowing altogether. It might take a bit longer to expand but at least your farm won't be at stake.

kowtow

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Personal guarantees are in unless specifically written out. I would say in light of what's happened here everyone seeking a loan should inquire as to what is the cost of making the loan non recourse.

I suspect the cost would be the loan.

Irish banks are poor lenders. They want to charge you for the belt, but you have to throw the braces in for free, in case it turns out later they hadn't a clue what they were doing.

freedominacup

kowtow wrote: »

I suspect the cost would be the loan.

Irish banks are poor lenders. They want to charge you for the belt, but you have to throw the braces in for free, in case it turns out later they hadn't a clue what they were doing.

Unless you have enough other business to keep them happy. They'll cheerfully forget all about recourse then and let you buy your asset back from the receiver for around five cent in the euro. No bother at all.

Panch18

It should be pretty straightforward shouldn't it

You borrow money to purchase something - you pay it back with the agreed interest in the agreed timeframe and everyone's happy

You don't pay it back, don't pay the interest or a late with repayments then you run the chance that the bank will foreclose and you have to suffer the consequences of your action of not meeting the agreed repayment terms

A lot of farmers in the past got themselves into right messes (and you could nearly pinpoint the ones on here who have) - but the banks didn't take the final step and foreclose - now ACC for 1 it seems will foreclose - so guys you'd better toughen up and get used to this type of thing because it's going to be happening on a regular basis

This happens in every other business in Ireland every day of the week - but there seems to be this mentality amoungst Irish people that they have some right to get away with not being able to meet their repayments and get some kind of loan forgiveness

coolshannagh28

Mrs cockett wrote: »

I think prurient is used out of context here

Freudian slip ! the general discussion is fine but some of the focus is over the top

farmerjj

melissak wrote: »

Maybe country folk are different in Cork. If someone bought a repossessed farm around here I would never miss an opportunity to do them an unneighbourly turn. And I'm fairly peaceful. My grandfather was offered a repossessed field for half nothing thirty years ago and he told them to shove it where the sun don't shine. AFAIK it never sold. Farmers should stick together or any one of them could be next. Grabbers should not be allowed to prosper.

Phew glad your not from cork. But your right about one thing farmers should stick together, and every one should be equal.(we pay our bills so should everyone else) I don't wanna be trying to rent land and some other fella come in and raise the price and then a few months say oops I cant pay.its not always the big companies suffering

melissak

Panch18 wrote: »

It should be pretty straightforward shouldn't it

You borrow money to purchase something - you pay it back with the agreed interest in the agreed timeframe and everyone's happy

You don't pay it back, don't pay the interest or a late with repayments then you run the chance that the bank will foreclose and you have to suffer the consequences of your action of not meeting the agreed repayment terms

A lot of farmers in the past got themselves into right messes (and you could nearly pinpoint the ones on here who have) - but the banks didn't take the final step and foreclose - now ACC for 1 it seems will foreclose - so guys you'd better toughen up and get used to this type of thing because it's going to be happening on a regular basis

This happens in every other business in Ireland every day of the week - but there seems to be this mentality amoungst Irish people that they have some right to get away with not being able to meet their repayments and get some kind of loan forgiveness

It is not that simple. Are you a farmer. If you are I would like to ask you to consider this. If Europe pulls the grants tomorrow will you be so smug. If the bank's or some buyer reneged at a strategic time because someone had their eye on the farm that the bank manager considered a better customer/ golf buddy, would your ducks all be in a row then? Judge not lest yourself be judged as the man said.

melissak

farmerjj wrote: »

Phew glad your not from cork. But your right about one thing farmers should stick together, and every one should be equal.(we pay our bills so should everyone else) I don't wanna be trying to rent land and some other fella come in and raise the price and then a few months say oops I cant pay.its not always the big companies suffering

I ask you the same questions. If the man from Europe decides to stop our gravy train, how will you fare? There are a lot of farmers struggling now with subsidies. Will all be rosy in the garden when they are no longer propping us all up?

Milked out

melissak wrote: »

Panch18 wrote: »

It should be pretty straightforward shouldn't it

You borrow money to purchase something - you pay it back with the agreed interest in the agreed timeframe and everyone's happy

You don't pay it back, don't pay the interest or a late with repayments then you run the chance that the bank will foreclose and you have to suffer the consequences of your action of not meeting the agreed repayment terms

A lot of farmers in the past got themselves into right messes (and you could nearly pinpoint the ones on here who have) - but the banks didn't take the final step and foreclose - now ACC for 1 it seems will foreclose - so guys you'd better toughen up and get used to this type of thing because it's going to be happening on a regular basis

This happens in every other business in Ireland every day of the week - but there seems to be this mentality amoungst Irish people that they have some right to get away with not being able to meet their repayments and get some kind of loan forgiveness

It is not that simple. Are you a farmer. If you are I would like to ask you to consider this. If Europe pulls the grants tomorrow will you be so smug. If the bank's or some buyer reneged at a strategic time because someone had their eye on the farm that the bank manager considered a better customer/ golf buddy, would your ducks all be in a row then? Judge not lest yourself be judged as the man said.

Add your reply here.

This is what I don't get how could the whole scenario of a verbal agreement come to play? Afaik you don't have money sanctioned till paper work is signed off. Going off verbal agreements is risky, as paper work would show the contract is with the bank not an employee of the bank,

paddysdream

melissak wrote: »

Ir if possible avoid borrowing altogether. It might take a bit longer to expand but at least your farm won't be at stake.

Lets be realistic here.Pretty hard to avoid borrowing if you want to expand.Actually pretty hard to avoid borrowing unless you really fell on your feet with a ready stocked farm left to you with a few quid in the bank as well.

farmerjj

melissak wrote: »

I ask you the same questions. If the man from Europe decides to stop our gravy train, how will you fare? There are a lot of farmers struggling now with subsidies. Will all be rosy in the garden when they are no longer propping us all up?

Gravy train??

melissak

Milked out wrote: »

Add your reply here.

This is what I don't get how could the whole scenario of a verbal agreement come to play? Afaik you don't have money sanctioned till paper work is signed off. Going off verbal agreements is risky, as paper work would show the contract is with the bank not an employee of the bank,

I don't know the inns and outs but the media slander campaign makes me think there is something not right. We'll know when we find out who buys the land I'd wager

melissak

paddysdream wrote: »

Lets be realistic here.Pretty hard to avoid borrowing if you want to expand.Actually pretty hard to avoid borrowing unless you really fell on your feet with a ready stocked farm left to you with a few quid in the bank as well.

True but we need to stay within our means. Values fluctuate, markets are a racket and inputs go up and up. What looks good on paper might not look so good next year and the bank's are vultures. This is all I'm saying

melissak

farmerjj wrote: »

Gravy train??

Grants. Not atall a given considering the way the world is going

farmerjj

melissak wrote: »

Grants. Not atall a given considering the way the world is going

Grants are anything but gravy trains, so many hops to go through there hardly worth it for most farmers. For example I put in a feed bin this year and it would have been more expensive to go with the grant than to go without (some pointless crap about the colour of the bin,and also the base been 6inchs to narrow for them)

Panch18

melissak wrote: »

It is not that simple. Are you a farmer. If you are I would like to ask you to consider this. If Europe pulls the grants tomorrow will you be so smug. If the bank's or some buyer reneged at a strategic time because someone had their eye on the farm that the bank manager considered a better customer/ golf buddy, would your ducks all be in a row then? Judge not lest yourself be judged as the man said.

Have borrowed for land on many occasions - always paid back in full and on time, paying for land at the moment and for a good few years to come

Europe can pull the grants - we'll loose a lot of money - but we'll still make our repayments

Why are you bringing in crap arguments about golf buddies etc - deal in reality

melissak

farmerjj wrote: »

Grants are anything but gravy trains, so many hops to go through there hardly worth it for most farmers. For example I put in a feed bin this year and it would have been more expensive to go with the grant than to go without (some pointless crap about the colour of the bin,and also the base been 6inchs to narrow for them)

I know that but the basic grants mightn't last either. I agree about the pointless regulations. It's another jobs for the boys scenario that you have to buy from a certain supplier so he can get his cut. Total racket the farming industry has turned into.

melissak

Panch18 wrote: »

Have borrowed for land on many occasions - always paid back in full and on time, paying for land at the moment and for a good few years to come

Europe can pull the grants - we'll loose a lot of money - but we'll still make our repayments

Why are you bringing in crap arguments about golf buddies etc - deal in reality

You deal in reality by burying your head in the sand and saying I'm alright jack. I deal in ideals as I am and will remain an idealist.
I hope the price for everything stays the same and no freak weather etc comes your way. Humble pie tastes like ****e to smug people

Panch18

melissak wrote: »

You deal in reality by burying your head in the sand and saying I'm alright jack. I deal in ideals as I am and will remain an idealist.

What?? Seriously???

Look by most definitions it is an idealist that bury's their head in the sand and is out of touch with reality

definition of idealist

An idealist is someone who envisions an ideal world rather than the real one. Some people consider idealists to be naive, impractical, and out of touch with reality. Idealists think that striving for perfection makes the world a better place.

paddysdream

melissak wrote: »

True but we need to stay within our means. Values fluctuate, markets are a racket and inputs go up and up. What looks good on paper might not look so good next year and the bank's are vultures. This is all I'm saying

But you have to factor in changing values and rising cost of inputs into your calculations when deciding to borrow and if so how much.
A paper plan will prob. pass bank scrutiny but the borrower has to be happy themselves that they can reach the targeted repayments etc and that the investment will actually pay off.
Banks are like any other business;no one can run a business on the basis that payment is optional or that when the pressure comes a creditor might then, and only then, conclude that the terms were unfair.
We are all big boys(and girls) and should enter any agreement with our eyes open.Do not confuse a bank with a charity.

melissak

Panch18 wrote: »

What?? Seriously???

Look by most definitions it is an idealist that bury's their head in the sand and is out of touch with reality

definition of idealist

An idealist is someone who envisions an ideal world rather than the real one. Some people consider idealists to be naive, impractical, and out of touch with reality. Idealists think that striving for perfection makes the world a better place.

Yes. I see the limitations of present reality and strive for an ideal where people weren't money grabbing or kowtowing to the bank's.

melissak

paddysdream wrote: »

But you have to factor in changing values and rising cost of inputs into your calculations when deciding to borrow and if so how much.
A paper plan will prob. pass bank scrutiny but the borrower has to be happy themselves that they can reach the targeted repayments etc and that the investment will actually pay off.
Banks are like any other business;no one can run a business on the basis that payment is optional or that when the pressure comes a creditor might then, and only then, conclude that the terms were unfair.
We are all big boys(and girls) and should enter any agreement with our eyes open.Do not confuse a bank with a charity.

I hope it stays fine for you. Genuinely.

Panch18

melissak wrote: »

Yes. I see the limitations of present reality and strive for an ideal where people weren't money grabbing or kowtowing to the bank's.

So what exactly is your point? do you think people shouldn't have to pay back loans, without recourse, if they can't meet the payments??

kowtow

Panch18 wrote: »

What?? Seriously???

Look by most definitions it is an idealist that bury's their head in the sand and is out of touch with reality

definition of idealist

An idealist is someone who envisions an ideal world rather than the real one. Some people consider idealists to be naive, impractical, and out of touch with reality. Idealists think that striving for perfection makes the world a better place.

But having said all that, God bless every last one of them.

Because I have a feeling it was an idealist who temporarily ignored the realities of life and decided that a cluster and a vacuum pump would lead to happier cows and fewer chapped hands in the morning.... not to mention a few other little innovations which make life more tolerable.

The world would be a dreary soul-less place without idealists.

Bass Reeves

Panch18 wrote: »

It should be pretty straightforward shouldn't it

You borrow money to purchase something - you pay it back with the agreed interest in the agreed timeframe and everyone's happy

You don't pay it back, don't pay the interest or a late with repayments then you run the chance that the bank will foreclose and you have to suffer the consequences of your action of not meeting the agreed repayment terms

A lot of farmers in the past got themselves into right messes (and you could nearly pinpoint the ones on here who have) - but the banks didn't take the final step and foreclose - now ACC for 1 it seems will foreclose - so guys you'd better toughen up and get used to this type of thing because it's going to be happening on a regular basis

This happens in every other business in Ireland every day of the week - but there seems to be this mentality amoungst Irish people that they have some right to get away with not being able to meet their repayments and get some kind of loan forgiveness

This is a harsh reality. Unless we want to go down the road that if you successfully pay off a loan or make a decent business out of that loan that the bank charge you 10-20% extra so that the lads that fail will not be foreclosed on. At present we are paying 2-3% higher on bank interest than elsewhere in Europe. This is mainly because that the banks that came in in the early noughties have all gone away again.

melissak wrote: »

It is not that simple. Are you a farmer. If you are I would like to ask you to consider this. If Europe pulls the grants tomorrow will you be so smug. If the bank's or some buyer reneged at a strategic time because someone had their eye on the farm that the bank manager considered a better customer/ golf buddy, would your ducks all be in a row then? Judge not lest yourself be judged as the man said.

melissak wrote: »

I ask you the same questions. If the man from Europe decides to stop our gravy train, how will you fare? There are a lot of farmers struggling now with subsidies. Will all be rosy in the garden when they are no longer propping us all up?

If Europe pulls the grants in the morning ( as long as they do it across the whole of the EU) food prices would rocket within 12 months. There would be few sheep west of the Shannon and fewer cattle. The suckler cow would disappear. To each action is an equal and opposite reaction.

paddysdream wrote: »

Lets be realistic here.Pretty hard to avoid borrowing if you want to expand.Actually pretty hard to avoid borrowing unless you really fell on your feet with a ready stocked farm left to you with a few quid in the bank as well.

If you borrow you have choices give no security and no recourse and you will only get small loans for a fridge or a PC. If you want to borrow you will have to put assets at risk especially if you want a reduced interest rate. The other factor is if loans are non recourse bank will foreclose faster so as to preserve asset value.

melissak wrote: »

I don't know the inns and outs but the media slander campaign makes me think there is something not right. We'll know when we find out who buys the land I'd wager

And we will also find out who was on the grassy knoll. IMO there i no media slander campaign but rather the media are reporting on what they are informed on . The truth this is a small business failure with a human element to it. This idea that a large multinational bank would connive with someone so that that person could get the land on the cheap is a bit far fetched

melissak wrote: »

True but we need to stay within our means. Values fluctuate, markets are a racket and inputs go up and up. What looks good on paper might not look so good next year and the bank's are vultures. This is all I'm saying

You have a point here this is why a lot of us are careful about the amount we borrow in case thing go wrong. However you cannot cover all eventualities ans sometimes sh!t happens.

melissak wrote: »

You deal in reality by burying your head in the sand and saying I'm alright jack. I deal in ideals as I am and will remain an idealist.

Idealism will not put bread on the table, it is an unfair world we have tried to make it fair more than once and the alternatives were no better.

boggerman1

They borrowed the money.they owe money all over the place as well.tough ****e they lose in the end from been"grabbers" themselves.the bank was right to move in.i hope it doesn't happen to myself but if I owe people I pay them.it might take a bit of time but everyone is paid out in full.better to have a good name as someone who will pay than been a big ****e walking over everyone.

melissak

Panch18 wrote: »

So what exactly is your point? do you think people shouldn't have to pay back loans, without recourse, if they can't meet the payments??

I am not saying any such thing. People shouldn't borrow outside their means but a lot has changed since 2007 when this loan was taken. For one the bank's were bailed out by the taxpayer to the tune of billions. Cronyism and corruption made a balls of the farming industry. We were promised the earth but instead some of us stand to lose all. Because we were stupid enough to believe people who wouldn't know honesty if it bit them in the ass. But as long as you're alright jack...

I hope that the smug farmers on here never end up on the other side of the fence is all. The lack of compassion is sad. A sign to me that small farmers are ****ed. If there is no unity and we are more eager to side with the bank's than a farmer in bad circumstances.